People get this wrong - WOTLK was the turning point which killed WoW

[Florena]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

1. True, it was added late in WOTLK's life cycle.
2. So? Heirlooms are a good thing. If you want to level without them, don't use them. They're an option for people who want them.
3. Did you forget that BC had heroic dungeon badges as well as Sunwell Pinacle dungeon? This started in BC. The only major thing Wrath did was remove attunements. BC introduced catchup gear.

[Lawlhero]

I dunno, the worse thing about WoTLK you didn't even mention, which was the introduction of multiple raid difficulties for the same raid. That nullified previous raids.

[Tojara]

WoTLK was good because the game was still in the part of the product cycle where it was growing, and nothing more. People like to give this expansion accolades like it revolutionized WoW, when it was mostly the same as the last expansion (product wise). It's funny because a lot like to cite growing sub numbers as a big reason to why it's good, without actually explaining why it was good.

Game was still relatively fresh (4-6 year range over it's life span), but also started introducing features that made the game far more accessible. It's design intent, at least initially was a huge departure from TBC (for better or worse, depends on your perspective). The game turning more casual, and moving away from core RPG elements really started in WoTLK.

Personally I found ICC disappointing, and WoTLK launch really boring. Dungeons were too easy and Blizzard pivoted hard on what they wanted for raid/dungeon difficulty, which left us with a rehashed Naxx, void of any real difficulty, that people cleared in Sunwell epics on the first week. So many people like to forget what the first 6 months of WoTLK was. Zero difficulty in any form of PvE content until Ulduar come out, completely changing how we view raiding up until this very day. But yeah, the first 6 months were shit (IMO).

This game was always bound to lose subs regardless of how good expansions were. This isn't me saying WoTLK was bad (it wasn't awful), but if you take WoTLK and it's concepts and move it further down the expansion line (say MoP or WoD), I 100% assure you that subs and stuff would have declined massively. Similarly, placing MoP/Cata/WoD in WoTLKs expansion slot likely would have seen massive growth too.

[tratra]

all 3 things were good for the game overall

not really, the dungeon finder was something that went beyond and above imho and destroyed the community bit of it. I remember everyone including me saying how bad it feels not leaving dalaran at all and just sitting there queuing and getting summoned.

I personally feel that finding people for dungeon etc should have remained a chat option only and disable all addons trying to mimic it.

[crono14]

1. True, it was added late in WOTLK's life cycle.
2. So? Heirlooms are a good thing. If you want to level without them, don't use them. They're an option for people who want them.
3. Did you forget that BC had heroic dungeon badges as well as Sunwell Pinacle dungeon? This started in BC. The only major thing Wrath did was remove attunements. BC introduced catchup gear.

This wasn't added until the end of BC. The entirety of BC was still progression oriented. Also, there was no way in hell a guild was going to get some epics and badge gear and walk into Sunwell and kill bosses. Maybe you kill Kalecgos, but you would need to go back and do BT for tier gear and gear. It was in full swing in WoTLK which made previous tiers completely invalidated.

[damonskye]

Oh good lord, another one of these threads....

Anyone who thinks the dungeon finder "killed" the game is living in a fantasy world.

You know what killed Star Wars: The Old Republic when people hit the endgame? A lack of a dungeon finder.

Nobody will launch an MMO these days without one.

Only masochists -- and those nitwits who complain about 'welfare epics' because they believe it makes them look cool and part of the in crowd -- want to sit in a city hub all day long spamming trade chat with "3 DPS LF tank & healer then GTG" all day long while running back and forth between their bank and the nearest flower vendor as if that's somehow a productive use of their time.

[Deleted]

So something that happened 10 years ago killed a game that still has 5m+ subscriptions?

[S R]

Can't wait for Vanilla to be released and hopefully these threads will stop.I wonder if vanilla will die what will all these babies complain about then?

[nyc81991]

Nnno, it didnt. thx for playing tho.

You should really work on your debating skills, they aren't good.

[AceofH]

all 3 things were good for the game overall

what about homogenization and removing of class weaknesses?

- - - Updated - - -

Despite the fact that numbers continued to rise until Cataclysm?

You are aware that 2 and 3 are the same thing? Heirlooms were designed so people could catch up and play with their friends as were the "catch up" mechanics. Wrath's catch up required you to pretty much only play that toon. Modern mechanics allow you to gear an alt while playing your current main.

most of these were introduced late into wrath and wrath largely stagnated in the population growth department.

- - - Updated - - -

WOTLK had harder dungeons than any dungeons after that and more fun and intuitive
It had best raids ever, fuck Ulduar was and it still is BEST RAID ever and introduced new style to it, using vehicles and HC modes.
Crafting was great in WOTLK much better than before where you had 500 things to craft of which you used less than 1%
So what? I don't see how that is relevant, like do same daily quest 100 times so you get exalted?
Flying was introduced in TBC and WOTLK areas were huge.
Wintergrasp was ok, nothing great but ok.
And what is wrong with time gating?
Limited attempts were great, and they were for HC, HC was meant to be hard, not do 400 pulls, hope one will be perfect and you will kill the boss. LK hc was amazing experience....

funny because i remember all the wrath babies crying about cata dungeons.
it had arguably the best raid ever (ulduar) and it also had two of the entire worst raid tiers ever (naxx tier was easy mode and then it had crusader. enough said).
wrath also was when homogenization made great strides and the weaknesses of most classes were largely removed.
wrath also was largely stagnant in the growth of subs department.

- - - Updated - - -

It definitely was a huge changing point for the game, it brought in the most players afterall, and they wouldn't have stuck for so long if it wasn't for those catch up mechanics, but "killed wow"?

It simply transitioned wow from a 2004 game to a game of the new decade.

The developers said it best themselves. Every WoW expansion is almost like a new game to them.

wrath didn't bring in the most subs, it merely had the most subs.
when wrath went live wow already had over 11 million subs. going up to 12-12.5 doesn't mean much.
vanilla brought in a net positive of 8 Million Subs.
Burning Crusade brought in over 3 Million subs.
Wrath couldn't even break a net positive of 2 million subs despite catch up mechanics, heirlooms, LFD, Homogenization, and in general making the game more appealing to a wider audience.

[Hanon]

People say WOTLK was the best expansion because it peaked Subs number, but WOTLK was the turning point which killed the MMO and the RPG elements of WoW:

1) Introducing Dungeon Finder
2) Heirlooms
3) Catch up mechanics ( dungeons ) which nullify completely previous raids

So, WOTLK was the Worst Wow expansion, and the rest followed its line

All of the 3 things were great additions to the game! Wotlk was great because it was pretty easy. Raids today are ten times harder.

[Zka]

Threads like this are SOOOO DUMB.
1) No, wow is not dead, not even close.
2) It's impossible to keep subs from dropping over a long period of time no matter how the game is developed.
3) No, it's not losing subs because of the few things you happen to dislike. This might come as a surprise but people are different and they want different things.

[Maudib]

Yet 10 years later people are still playing, so it's not been killed.

A testimony to the original creators of WoW for developing such an amazing game. Still comparing 12 million players to today's 2 million?

You;re right.. not dead. Very, very unhealthy... like a zombie. The game isn't dead, it' undead... with parts rotting off left and right.

[AceofH]

LFD would have been a good thing if they had kept original Vanilla and BC dungeon design where they required coordination and socialization. instead blizzard transitioned in wrath to aoe tank and spank dungeons that don't need you to even speak.

heck after seeing Island Expeditions i have sometimes wondered if the people in my LFD dungeon were blizzard AI bots...

[Sangris]

The only thing I hate about WotLK are the piss-easy heroic dungeons that set the precedent for what we have now.

[vsb]

Actually BC was the turning point.

1) Introducing multiple difficulties for dungeons which were just extended to raids in wotlk. Lazy developers decided just to turn sliders instead of actually doing some meaningful work and implementing more dungeons.
2) Introducing flying.

Also I think that catch-up mechanics was introduced in later vanilla patches.

[Relapses]

The only people who are wrong are the ones who are constantly trying to look at some random esoteric point in time of WoW's existence and saying, "Yeah, there it is. THIS is the reason WoW is dying." There are so many fucking reasons that you could attribute to the "game dying" that it's almost entirely pointless to discuss them.

Additionally, for the 12,393,434th time I've said it: Subscriber numbers are completely, totally and 100% irrelevant to us since we don't know the real reasons people quit the game.

[Bigbazz]

Actually, TBC introduced catchup mechanics in patch 2.4 with vendors giving MH/BT level gear with badges of justice

PS: I am no fan of WoTLK (hated aoe grindfest dungeons, dungeon finder etc...)

Even before that, the Zul Aman was a catchup raid with T5 quality loot and some BIS (even when compared to T6 drops) loot while the badge vendor it added provided more of the same. And of course the Gladiator S1 loot was made available from BG's with the release of season 3. if we really look at it catchup mechanics already began at the end of Vanilla.

[Kralljin]

I agree with one thing, Wotlk altered the game drastically and shaped the way into recent expansions.

However, the one thing also some people forget, BC also altered the game heavily, BC established the more streamlined questflow, which broke away from the exploration factor existing in Vanilla.

BC also started the "easy epics" trend with Badge of justices, 5man Heroics and Karazhan.
PvP for example was heavily abused by people to gear themselves as the gear was quite powerful and you could later on by S1 / S2 just with honor.
This led to a massive infestation of freshly dinged 70's in Bg's (which were next to useless as they did no damage / healing) and honor bots.

When people could buy Items on the level of Hyjal / BT from a vendor in 2.4, a lot of people complained that WoW became so casual friendly.

LFD would have been a good thing if they had kept original Vanilla and BC dungeon design where they required coordination and socialization. instead blizzard transitioned in wrath to aoe tank and spank dungeons that don't need you to even speak.

The combination of BC heroics and LFD was called Cata heroics, which were loved by the organized playerbase and hated by people who relied on LFD / Pugs.

[Tart]

Whats the problem with heirloom? rly.

Just, dont use.

Will that work with other people who butcher their way through dungeons or against you in PvP. You'll be saying create your own non heirloom wearing pugs next.......