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  1. #281
    Warchief Nazrark's Avatar
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    The #NoChanges went out the window when the private server players realized they would have to pay a sub. So they don't care anymore.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    The #NoChanges went out the window when the private server players realized they would have to pay a sub. So they don't care anymore.
    I believe that is where SOME of the movement went for sure, and that some again are just trolls trying to wind up the already fractured and extremely hostile and unwelcoming community. How much, i wouldn't know, but it certainly isnt all of them. I think the largest group will be those adapting and changing, moving the goal posts, while slowly realising that change IS coming, so its best just to embrace it, or at least, accept it and move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    At the top end modern is certainly harder. But for your average player? Vanilla will he harder. End of discussion.
    Thats not how "discussions" work. And again, the logic here is completely off. Is it that you consider time = difficulty? do you consider sleeping harder than playing a game of squash? i mean it takes longer.....If you can explain to me how Vanilla was OBJECTIVELY more difficult than retail, comparing like for like, without mentioning TIME, i will respond to the comment and accept you are right.

    lvling from 1-60 taking longer than 70-80 doesnt really make it "harder".

    Only being able to pull 1-2 mobs at a time while lvling or being killed doesnt make it HARDER, simply different tuning.

    A dungeon taking 3 hours because no one has a clue what they are doing and the tank has no shield and the healer isnt specced to heal, that is only important if you compare it to a mythic 15+ and throw in a tank who has never tanked before, and only been playing a few weeks, a healer who is actually a ret pally, and a bunch of dps with no clue either.

    This will be proven, without a doubt, when the only roadblock to clearing all content in the game is gating, time sinks, and attunements. I really find it hard to take someone seriously when they claim vanilla was "HARDER" than anything since.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Amazing news if true. Citation please?
    was right here on the front page in one of the interviews. Youll probably have to go back a few days to find it.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I believe that is where SOME of the movement went for sure, and that some again are just trolls trying to wind up the already fractured and extremely hostile and unwelcoming community. How much, i wouldn't know, but it certainly isnt all of them. I think the largest group will be those adapting and changing, moving the goal posts, while slowly realising that change IS coming, so its best just to embrace it, or at least, accept it and move on.

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    Thats not how "discussions" work. And again, the logic here is completely off. Is it that you consider time = difficulty? do you consider sleeping harder than playing a game of squash? i mean it takes longer.....If you can explain to me how Vanilla was OBJECTIVELY more difficult than retail, comparing like for like, without mentioning TIME, i will respond to the comment and accept you are right.

    lvling from 1-60 taking longer than 70-80 doesnt really make it "harder".

    Only being able to pull 1-2 mobs at a time while lvling or being killed doesnt make it HARDER, simply different tuning.

    A dungeon taking 3 hours because no one has a clue what they are doing and the tank has no shield and the healer isnt specced to heal, that is only important if you compare it to a mythic 15+ and throw in a tank who has never tanked before, and only been playing a few weeks, a healer who is actually a ret pally, and a bunch of dps with no clue either.

    This will be proven, without a doubt, when the only roadblock to clearing all content in the game is gating, time sinks, and attunements. I really find it hard to take someone seriously when they claim vanilla was "HARDER" than anything since.
    How was it harder?
    In live I can pull 6 to 8 mobs my level and kill them with ease in 20 seconds or less.
    In vanilla if I pull 6 to 8 mobs I am dead.
    In live I can pull an entire trash pack all at once and it goes down with ease.
    In vanilla I better have some cc for that trash pack, a line of sight pull and oh yeah. No aoe dps.
    In live I get a built in quest guide that literally tells me where to go and what to do.
    In vanilla I have to actually read the quest text. And quests weren't lit up on my mini map.
    In live you don't even really have to manage resources anymore.
    In vanilla you were using everything you had available including bandages.

    So you're actually going to tell me that the fact that on live I don't have to worry about pulling extra mobs and in vanilla I did wasn't harder? You got to be kidding me.
    In vanilla you were a nobody learning the ropes. You did less damage, you took more damage, and you had less oh crap buttons.

    I didn't say vanilla was harder then anything after. Merely that for 90% of the player base (anyone who raids normal or below and doesn't do mythic + dungeons) it would be harder.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Then you're on a weird server where a lot of people invite friends into their groups from other servers.

    Thats the only way to CRZ into Stormwind or Org; they are the only two zones in the game that do not CRZ by default. The only way to be in another realms' version is to be in a group with someone and transition into the zone.
    The idea that all those low level bank toons around me from a dozen different servers are somehow grouping in to my realm to be in the Dwarven District to run between the bank, the AH and the mailbox seems unlikely. AFAIK the only capitals were CRZ is disabled are the RP realms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    How was it harder?
    In live I can pull 6 to 8 mobs my level and kill them with ease in 20 seconds or less.
    In vanilla if I pull 6 to 8 mobs I am dead.
    In live I can pull an entire trash pack all at once and it goes down with ease.
    In vanilla I better have some cc for that trash pack, a line of sight pull and oh yeah. No aoe dps.
    In live I get a built in quest guide that literally tells me where to go and what to do.
    In vanilla I have to actually read the quest text. And quests weren't lit up on my mini map.
    In live you don't even really have to manage resources anymore.
    In vanilla you were using everything you had available including bandages.

    So you're actually going to tell me that the fact that on live I don't have to worry about pulling extra mobs and in vanilla I did wasn't harder? You got to be kidding me.
    In vanilla you were a nobody learning the ropes. You did less damage, you took more damage, and you had less oh crap buttons.

    I didn't say vanilla was harder then anything after. Merely that for 90% of the player base (anyone who raids normal or below and doesn't do mythic + dungeons) it would be harder.
    Want that same feeling on live? Level a BfA Fire Mage with warmode off.
    Seriously though: harder doesn't mean hard.

    And 'Hardness' isn't a good single measure. Endurance, dexterity, explosive power, precision, strategic and analytical insights, all of these can be subjected to 'hard' tests, but they all require different talents. How do yo compare Olympic sprinting to world master chess?

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    The idea that all those low level bank toons around me from a dozen different servers are somehow grouping in to my realm to be in the Dwarven District to run between the bank, the AH and the mailbox seems unlikely. AFAIK the only capitals were CRZ is disabled are the RP realms.

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    Want that same feeling on live? Level a BfA Fire Mage with warmode off.
    Seriously though: harder doesn't mean hard.

    And 'Hardness' isn't a good single measure. Endurance, dexterity, explosive power, precision, strategic and analytical insights, all of these can be subjected to 'hard' tests, but they all require different talents. How do yo compare Olympic sprinting to world master chess?
    I never said it was hard. Merely that it was harder. Which is the truth.
    When I am leveling in BFA, short of being comically stupid and trying to see how many mobs it takes to kill me, I just dont die. In vanilla, what most BFA players consider a conservative pull (2 or 3 mobs) can kill you.
    In BFA I regularly solo quests that tell me I need anywhere between 3 and 5 people.
    Short of a few specs in vanilla good luck with that.

    I am not saying vanilla is omg hardest game ever. But the difference between live and vanilla is noticeable.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    How was it harder?
    In live I can pull 6 to 8 mobs my level and kill them with ease in 20 seconds or less.
    In vanilla if I pull 6 to 8 mobs I am dead.
    In live I can pull an entire trash pack all at once and it goes down with ease.
    In vanilla I better have some cc for that trash pack, a line of sight pull and oh yeah. No aoe dps.
    In live I get a built in quest guide that literally tells me where to go and what to do.
    In vanilla I have to actually read the quest text. And quests weren't lit up on my mini map.
    In live you don't even really have to manage resources anymore.
    In vanilla you were using everything you had available including bandages.

    So you're actually going to tell me that the fact that on live I don't have to worry about pulling extra mobs and in vanilla I did wasn't harder? You got to be kidding me.
    In vanilla you were a nobody learning the ropes. You did less damage, you took more damage, and you had less oh crap buttons.

    I didn't say vanilla was harder then anything after. Merely that for 90% of the player base (anyone who raids normal or below and doesn't do mythic + dungeons) it would be harder.
    You REALLY need to read a post before you reply to it. How awkward for you.

  8. #288
    What happened to #NoChanges
    Short version: Changes.

    Long version: The no changes movement was retarded to begin with. First of all, anyone that played vanilla knows that there was near non stop whining after every single patch. People saying battlegrounds ruined pvp. People saying 20 man raids ruined raiding. Basically, any change made in vanilla was said to ruin the game. Yet all these private server players pick the final patch of vanilla as their experience. Why is that? Because they liked the changes the devs were making.

    Heres an example of a change that needed to happen: The addition of masterloot. What happened before masterloot was added in mid vanilla you ask? Well ever been to Gurubashi Arena? Yeah. thats what happened. Everyone ran to the corpse and spam left clicked as fast as they could. Guilds instead just demanded no one looted the items, but everyone did anyway, of course. Raiding was fucking AWFUL without ML. Then they added it. Thats a good change.

    Guess what? Those same devs that added all those good things in vanilla, were also the guys working on TBC. That means they thought it was also a good idea to add flying, badges, heroic dungeons, 25 man and 10 man raids, shamans in the alliance and paladins in the horde and so on.

    So really, when you're saying #nochanges as if you're sticking by vanilla devs, its comparable to watching Lewis Hamilton drive a quarter round a racing track, stop and say 'yeah, this is great. Stop right here.' No. He is still going to finish the track, thats what he wanted to do. Thats what he was always going to do.

    In fact, most of the changes in tbc and wotlk were things the vanilla devs wanted to do (Again, they're the same people) but couldn't due to time or engine constraints. Shit like the barber shop springs to mind.

    NoChanges has always been retarded.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Short version: Changes.

    Long version: The no changes movement was retarded to begin with. First of all, anyone that played vanilla knows that there was near non stop whining after every single patch. People saying battlegrounds ruined pvp. People saying 20 man raids ruined raiding. Basically, any change made in vanilla was said to ruin the game. Yet all these private server players pick the final patch of vanilla as their experience. Why is that? Because they liked the changes the devs were making.

    Heres an example of a change that needed to happen: The addition of masterloot. What happened before masterloot was added in mid vanilla you ask? Well ever been to Gurubashi Arena? Yeah. thats what happened. Everyone ran to the corpse and spam left clicked as fast as they could. Guilds instead just demanded no one looted the items, but everyone did anyway, of course. Raiding was fucking AWFUL without ML. Then they added it. Thats a good change.

    Guess what? Those same devs that added all those good things in vanilla, were also the guys working on TBC. That means they thought it was also a good idea to add flying, badges, heroic dungeons, 25 man and 10 man raids, shamans in the alliance and paladins in the horde and so on.

    So really, when you're saying #nochanges as if you're sticking by vanilla devs, its comparable to watching Lewis Hamilton drive a quarter round a racing track, stop and say 'yeah, this is great. Stop right here.' No. He is still going to finish the track, thats what he wanted to do. Thats what he was always going to do.

    In fact, most of the changes in tbc and wotlk were things the vanilla devs wanted to do (Again, they're the same people) but couldn't due to time or engine constraints. Shit like the barber shop springs to mind.

    NoChanges has always been retarded.
    I have always found the argument of having NO CHANGES to be strange, considering that as with you, i enjoyed the fact the game was always changing, and felt like an ever evolving game, rather than just a static thing. Some of the changes i didnt like at the time, but looking back, were a huge improvement. There is actually a group of people on this very forum petitioning to have the loot set to free for all at all times. because "derp derp vanilla"

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You REALLY need to read a post before you reply to it. How awkward for you.
    I find your entire argument awkward. You claim it wasn't harder but then point out that you can't pull more then 2 or 3 mobs in vanilla without risking death.

  11. #291
    Deleted
    The reason why Pservers went with 1.12 was because it was the lates patch with class reworks. Like before the class reworks warlocks life tap didn't scale, so the beter the gear you get , the more gcd u needed to fill your mana. It was a nice qol change when the let it scale with SP after the warlock rework.

    I like to ask if players would be oke if the add some small changes that were key problems for some specs to work. Like give prot paladin a taunt and some sort of mana regen so they can also tank (heck why the hell had they a prot tallent tree) or is this a brigde to far ?

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by dolfke View Post
    The reason why Pservers went with 1.12 was because it was the lates patch with class reworks. Like before the class reworks warlocks life tap didn't scale, so the beter the gear you get , the more gcd u needed to fill your mana. It was a nice qol change when the let it scale with SP after the warlock rework.

    I like to ask if players would be oke if the add some small changes that were key problems for some specs to work. Like give prot paladin a taunt and some sort of mana regen so they can also tank (heck why the hell had they a prot tallent tree) or is this a brigde to far ?
    No, changing specs goes too far. Changing something like black lotus spawns is fine. I shudder to think about getting flasks as a raider if the servers are double-ish the size of vanilla.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by tcable View Post
    Millions? Haha, no, a few hundred at most.
    I’m not suggesting that Classic will have millions of active players, however there’s likely millions who will try it out. That’s the millions of people I’m talking about, mist of which will not be happy with the game.
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    I find your entire argument awkward. You claim it wasn't harder but then point out that you can't pull more then 2 or 3 mobs in vanilla without risking death.
    And as i said, yet again you cherry pick just a tiny part of a statement, and then 'dismantle' it, without acknowledging that i already said that the game balancing and tuning has changed, and there has been a dramatic increase in mob density out in the world. In vanilla, you were expected to kill 1 mob at a time, maybe 2. Thats how the game world and mobs were scaled and tuned. In retail, it is expected you will kill one PACK of mobs at a time, be that 2, 3, or 5 mobs. Tekken must be the easiest game in the world then, since you only face one opponent at a time! (excluding tag obv). Yet another complete logical fail on your part.

    You are mistaking difficulty with tuning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I’m not suggesting that Classic will have millions of active players, however there’s likely millions who will try it out. That’s the millions of people I’m talking about, mist of which will not be happy with the game.
    I am wondering where you get the idea from that "millions" (2million+) people will 'try out' classic? There are many more people interested in retail than classic, and that, at best estimates, is struggling to maintain even a few million active players. i think its entirely realistic that hundreds of thousands may try it. Based on interest levels in private servers, interest in signing petitions and being heard. But i dont see that number suddenly going up 10 fold, especially when there is a paywall in front of them, even if its 'only' $15.

    I dont know many people who are happy to "try" a game for $15.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2018-11-15 at 12:34 AM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I am wondering where you get the idea from that "millions" (2million+) people will 'try out' classic? There are many more people interested in retail than classic, and that, at best estimates, is struggling to maintain even a few million active players. i think its entirely realistic that hundreds of thousands may try it. Based on interest levels in private servers, interest in signing petitions and being heard. But i dont see that number suddenly going up 10 fold, especially when there is a paywall in front of them, even if its 'only' $15.

    I dont know many people who are happy to "try" a game for $15.
    It's just a guesstimate based on the number of views on Vanilla content videos, forums and general mood around the internet. Also that Classic servers won't just be for people who want Vanilla back but also for the millions and millions who didn't get to try it back then.
    Again, I'm not saying that these millions of people will stay with Classic or play it actively. I'd be surprised if Classic servers reach more than 500k active players after the first year, that said I do think that there will be millions who try it in the start and maybe when Live WoW has content droughts.

    Say that Live WoW has around 5 million subs at this time, what happens when there's content drought at the end of expansions or between patches? Some take breaks, but some will say "...hey I'm paying $15 per month so I might as well try this." ...they play for 10 levels and they might be bored, fine. But they still tried it out, which is how I expect most of the millions who try out Classic servers to try it out. It's how I played WoW Vanilla for the first 2-3 months, I picked a class and played it until around level 15 when I got bored and then I moved on to the next class until I found something I enjoyed- which was Feral Druid.
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    It's just a guesstimate based on the number of views on Vanilla content videos, forums and general mood around the internet. Also that Classic servers won't just be for people who want Vanilla back but also for the millions and millions who didn't get to try it back then.
    Again, I'm not saying that these millions of people will stay with Classic or play it actively. I'd be surprised if Classic servers reach more than 500k active players after the first year, that said I do think that there will be millions who try it in the start and maybe when Live WoW has content droughts.

    Say that Live WoW has around 5 million subs at this time, what happens when there's content drought at the end of expansions or between patches? Some take breaks, but some will say "...hey I'm paying $15 per month so I might as well try this." ...they play for 10 levels and they might be bored, fine. But they still tried it out, which is how I expect most of the millions who try out Classic servers to try it out. It's how I played WoW Vanilla for the first 2-3 months, I picked a class and played it until around level 15 when I got bored and then I moved on to the next class until I found something I enjoyed- which was Feral Druid.
    Why didnt private servers get even close to 10% of those numbers then? considering they were / are free?

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Why didnt private servers get even close to 10% of those numbers then? considering they were / are free?
    10% of what number? I'm fairly certain that private servers has seen more than 50k players over the years...

    I think the biggest reasons that private servers don't have 500k active players is because it requires a bit of effort and knowhow to actually find and connect to one. There's also people who respect copyright laws, believe it or not, and for that reason didn't even consider playing on private servers.
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  18. #298
    Deleted
    Well because blizzards first iteration of pleasing the classic crowd was the shitfest that was proposed "pristine" servers, since they thought this would be an adequate substitute it set the bar for blizzards mentality regarding classic, which understandably had people (including me) wary.
    After this years blizzcon specifically i'm confident that the dev team (and Ion, surprisingly - didn't know about the EJ history) share at least a similiar view to mine of what classic should be, and i'm much more lenient with certain changes than I would've been initially.

    That said if they start fucking about with sending out buffs/nerfs to classes and items left and right, increase tank threat or other major changes i'm getting my pitchfork.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Also that Classic servers won't just be for people who want Vanilla back but also for the millions and millions who didn't get to try it back then.
    This is the perfect example of the issue i have with 'fans'. they are blind to logic. "millions and millions" what millions? who are you talking about? what makes you think any of these made up "millions and millions" have any interest in classic?

    its just made up numbers to support an opinion.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is the perfect example of the issue i have with 'fans'. they are blind to logic. "millions and millions" what millions? who are you talking about? what makes you think any of these made up "millions and millions" have any interest in classic?

    its just made up numbers to support an opinion.
    That's not that hard a stretch, though.

    According to the infographic they released in 2014, by December 2013 a total of over 100 million World of Warcraft accounts had been created. If we're extremely conservative and assume 25% of those accounts were free bot accounts that then got terminated but still counted to that total, we'd still have over 75 million WoW accounts by the end of Mists of Pandaria. Probably close to 100 million by now.

    Statistically, far more people have played World of Warcraft than play now. If only 10% of those people would be interested in at least trying World of Warcraft Classic, the demand could potentially run into the millions. Sure, retention rates are likely going to be close to 5%, if not lower, since it'll be a design 15 years out of its own time. But Blizzard does have to account for the power of both hype and nostalgia. I think they're fully expecting at least a million players to play Classic to some level before the six month mark.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

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