The hate on LFR

[nekobaka]

Normal raiding is extremely easy to pug fyi. Try it sometime.

The introduction of the group finder and lower difficulty did a lot to make organized raiding accessible and participated in for those who are interested. 3rd party estimates had the so called "accessible and casual friendly" WotLK's ICC at about 10% clear at expansions end with MoP's SoO at 30% after a few months of release. WoD opening raid went up to 40% in similar time frame.

If organized raiding is not something one is interested in then there is LFR.

[Vantheus]

It used to be very simple

Not enough time? No raid for you
Not skilled enough? No raid for you
Not in a guild/lead a guild? No raid for you
Bad reputation on server? No raid for you

But the casuals are the demographic now so they cater to them as they are the majority

Don't like any of the above? No LFR for you... See it really is that easy if you don't like it don't do it

[Raelbo]

Well, LFR is factually and very obviously how I described it

There is absolutely nothing factual about the absolute nonsense you wrote. It's ok to not like a feature, you really don't need to come up with a ridiculous excuse.

so if you can't even manage this level of brain activity, I guess the ridicule lies in the state of your comprehension. Condolences I guess.

This kind of ad hominem is a pretty clear indication that you lack an actual argument. Thank you for validating my opinion!

[bufferunderrun]

I don't think LFR did that, I think group finder just made it easier to play the game. There is no need to be in a shitty guild anymore. Obviously, people are going to take advantage of that.

Gf has many disadvantages compared to lfr the biggest being:
-no autoqueue and teleport
-ability for the players that create the group to set standards (item level etc)

With lfr you can raid at any time from any point in the world without anyone dictate anything, a supreme advantage over anything other difficulties offer unless you are a mounts/titles collector.

[Raelbo]

Richard and Joseph live on the same street. Richard (aka Dick) has a lot more money than Joe, so he drives a Porsche Cayenne with all the extra bells and whistles and he likes to show it off to everyone. Joe doesn't have a car because the only car dealer in town is the Porsche dealer. So Joe has to walk and use public transport.

Then one day a VW dealer opens up in town and starts selling cars that Joe can afford. So he goes out and buys a little Up! runabout. Joe is ecstatic because now, instead of having to walk everywhere, he can drive.

Dick, on the other hand, is livid. It's not fair! He has worked hard to earn enough money to buy his Porsche, and now that Joe has his little VW, Dick feels like his acheivements have been lessened. Furthermore, Dick feels that VW is really ruining Joe because now Joe won't have the incentive he needs to succeed in his career and earn enough money to buy a Porsche. Worse yet, Dick is angry that he is now forced to buy an Up! because Joe has one. It really upsets Dick that not only does he have to drive his Porsche everyday, but he now also needs to find the time to take extra trips in his Up!, on top of which the driving experience of the VW, relative to his amazing Porsche, is just terrible.

For the last 7 years Dick and a few of his fellow Porsche drivers organise pickets outside the VW dealership demanding that it shut it doors. Dick suspects though that his message isn't getting through because he and his protesters are kinda lost among the crowd of happy people visiting the VW dealership to buy cars, which is a pity, because all those ignorant idiot VW drivers don't understand that they should be listening to Dick because of his super superioritynessness

Dick remains paranoid that the presence of the VW shop is a threat to the survival of his beloved Porsche and that because everyone can afford a cheap little VW, no one will want to buy Porsches anymore (Dick is also ignorant to the fact that VW and Porsche are all part of the same big company.

On a side note, something Dick hasn't really paid attention to is that fact that the local petrol station, car mechanic, panel beating shop, tyre shop and bank, all of which were on the verge of shutting down before VW came to town, are now booming and look set to stay to provide the services necessary to make driving a Porsche possible. He's also failed to notice how all the potholes and traffic lights have recently been fixed now that there are actually more than 3 people using the roads.

[Aqua]

Generates and perpetuates apathy and disinterest in regular raiding as well as giving off the wrong impression of what raiding is like.

In a nutshell, there's many different nuances as to why it's a bad system, disguised as a 'cater to all!'. It kills slower rather than cutting like a dagger say as the '25man' '10man' raid split did. It teaches bad habits, it rewards disproportionately to it's efforts. I can go on, it's a conglomerate of multiple problems rather than a simple answer.

In my observations LFR has turned more people away from raiding than gotten them interested, or if it interests them at all, they just stay in LFR and then go on forums and complain about 'raiding' when it gets too hard/easy (still at a loss how that happens). It goes against what raiding was to many of us. Social activity. And I cannot blame anyone who feels like it's a betrayal of the spirit of the past time.

[crusadernero]

Hahaha see I considered doing it this week just to see... but sitting at 365... I said to myself "why would I put myself through that nonsense for a .0001% chance of a titanforged piece?"

Legion, you HAD to run it especially during the start to grind gear, since it was only a 10ilvl difference. And of course... legos...
This xpac, they removed all the "need", which is nice, but at the same time I miss that +1 extra thing to grind for.

Yeah.. im really glad we dont have any reason to do LFR now, compared to previous xpacs. I got tierd of the raids much more quickly doing it on lfr, normal and HC.

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Heh, my personal theory is that 99 percent of all LFR hate comes down to one thing and one thing only... gear. If LFR gave no gear whatsoever and people somehow still flocked to it and ran it night and day, we would barely ever hear a single complaint.

Think of Pet Battles. Almost any “perceived” negative aspect of LFR can be applied to Pet Battles. They don’t teach you how to play your character... they do not encourage the social aspect of the game... you don’t need a guild to do them and you can get rewards from them even if you are bad at the game... but there is no gear, so almost no one complains. (Sure, it’s the internet, so SOMEONE will complain, but very very few will.)

I think less people give a shit about LFR being in the game now in BfA than previous xpacs. There is zero need to do LFR at all. With m+, warfronts, rares, WQs, normal raid that is quite easy, you dont need to think about LFR.

I certainly have not. I have two ally chars and two horde chars at 120, all of them geared 350+, and non has stepped into LFR yet.

[Raelbo]

Generates and perpetuates apathy and disinterest in regular raiding

Nonsense. LFR doesn't offer the same challenge, the same team experience or the same rewards as regular raiding. If those things are important to you, LFR is not going to lure you away. If those things aren't important to you, you either aren't a raider, or you're a very unhappy raider.

as well as giving off the wrong impression of what raiding is like.

I think that most participants in LFR are not as clueless as you think they are and I doubt many of them are under any kind of delusion that LFR is like real raiding.

It teaches bad habits,

I am not sure I agree with that statement. It may be true for LFR-only players, but there is no reason to believe that an active raider will start to adopt those habits during active raiding.

People do what they need to do in order to complete the content they are participating in. What difference does it make to you that an LFR hero has the bad habit of standing in fire?

it rewards disproportionately to it's efforts.

No it doesn't. Its rewards are appropriately weak.

I can go on, it's a conglomerate of multiple problems rather than a simple answer.

Personally I think it would help if you could just give one valid actual problem rather than a long list of non-issues as you have done so far.

In my observations LFR has turned more people away from raiding than gotten them interested, or if it interests them at all, they just stay in LFR and then go on forums and complain about 'raiding' when it gets too hard/easy (still at a loss how that happens).

Is that an objective observation? Or is it simply the effect of the bias you brought based on what you expected to see? It sounds to me like you're just trying to make LFR the scapegoat for the generally low level of interest in raiding that has always existed and would still exist even if LFR didn't.

It goes against what raiding was to many of us. Social activity. And I cannot blame anyone who feels like it's a betrayal of the spirit of the past time.

Ok, I can totally accept that LFR is not what raiding was to you. But your fallacy is that you see it as a threat. It's not. LFR was not created to replace your (and my) raiding experience. It was created to give a (different) raiding experience to an audience that were never going to get involved in raiding. So unless they start phasing out regular raiding in favour of LFR I think your point here is totally invalid.

You still have your raiding and that has not been betrayed at all. If anything LFR is a good thing because it provided the justification for spending the time and money needed to create raid content in the first place.

[Deleted]

For me a big motivator to get into a raiding group was to see the raid environments themselves. LFR has made it unnecessary to find a dedicated group to do so, so in turn I have no motivation try and find a raiding group/guild to try out raiding. There's just no point.

I am the same. I cleared Uldir on normal on first week and my interest just completely dropped. I have already seen this raid, why bother. Not a fan of different difficulties, which is why I can't wait to check out classic. It feels more like an RPG when everyone is going on the same path.

[valis]

I mean... why even quote me if you're gonna argue things I've never said?

I guess to put words in my mouth?

I never said anything about casual, I specifically said the entire palyerbase.

I also didnt put it on casuals, I put it on blizzard. for promoting it.

it's not just casuals, it's everyone.

you know why? because of automated randomly matchmade content.

so the casuals get matched into groups with the hardcores without either of them being able to do anything about it.

the hardcore gets mad because he has to do trivial/boring content and the casual is holding him back, which in turn makes him feel like his time is wasted.

and the casual gets mad because he can't enjoy the game, because the hardcore player just keeps rushing. which ruins his enjoyment of the game, and makes him feel like HIS time is wasted.

they both play differently and yet are forced to play with each other through no fault of their own.

that's the problem.


I hope I've been clear the second time now.

Well the problem that "hardcore and casuals" meet exists since vanila, so LfD/LfR are the new iterations of that. Major changes to that came with more dedicated sources on "how to play WoW", realy starting with BC. The "elitist douchebag" with "OGOGOGOO!!!!!" "L2P N00B" was born on additional information on websites about how to run a instance/play your class/ do a BG, since Blizzards was/is still to lazy to make a tutorial or give useful information in game(the famous "polished blizzard perfection").
Automated Matchmade content is on pair with the "DPS lfg dayli hero" you have no clue who this person is, but you try it anyway because your guild/friend are ocupied and you want to run a instance. You could and still can make friends (and enemies) in matchmades, still happens. Only thing that increased was frequenzy, so you got to know a lot more of the community.

[Raelbo]

For me a big motivator to get into a raiding group was to see the raid environments themselves. LFR has made it unnecessary to find a dedicated group to do so, so in turn I have no motivation try and find a raiding group/guild to try out raiding. There's just no point.

This sounds like an argument in favour of LFR.

I mean, if you have no interest in being part of a dedicated group, if the challenge of beating hard content does nothing for, if literally nothing about proper raiding motivates you other than seeing the raid environments, then what exactly have you lost out on by avoiding all that?

Essentially your line of reasoning seems to be "LFR sucks because I prefer it to normal raiding". Just doesn't make sense.

[Deleted]

You can get superior rewards through World Quests , aka solo content. If anything, the last wing of LFR should offer better rewards then it currently does.

No it should not. Lfr should not be the place you look for upgrades.
If only they got rid of titanforging...

Its kinda disgusting with all the free epics we get you still cry for more like a spoiled little child.

[Akka]

Your reasoning makes zero sense. The rewards for lfr are not great. Not sure how the entire game is tailored around it since it's not even a good hearing source.

Gosh, you're looking at it without any perspective.
LFR, especially when it appeared, provided gear that was second only to the raid themselves. It meant that everything else was made obsolete by a "click one button and faceroll dumbed down fights". Due to it's extreme easiness, it's basically a free loot distributor, and as such :
- It defines the minimal level of gear basically everyone has, and removes pre-raid progression.
- It causes people to get used to just click and loot, and destroy the social aspect.
- It obsoletes everything that comes before it (so basically, until recentaly, all dungeons and all quests).
- It created a permanent "difficulty level", which means that they have to bump up ilvl one tier up and increase the stat inflation.
- It makes all content immediately accessible, which means it removes the motivation of discovery.

The game had to adapt to this new situation, so basically all what I said. That's simple facts.

Basically you and others are mad because others get to see content so you aren't a special elitist that can say only you and few others have seen it. Why do you base so much of your self view on what others do?

All that bullshit is just a convenient pretext to dismiss whatever arguments you don't want to hear, just like "rose-tinted roses" was used to claim that people didn't like Vanilla even while they were actually playing it. Why do you feel the need to decide for others what they are saying instead of actually reading what they are saying ?

[Deleted]

Richard and Joseph live on the same street. Richard (aka Dick) has a lot more money than Joe, so he drives a Porsche Cayenne with all the extra bells and whistles and he likes to show it off to everyone. Joe doesn't have a car because the only car dealer in town is the Porsche dealer. So Joe has to walk and use public transport.

Then one day a Hyundai dealer opens up in town and starts selling cars that Joe can afford. So he goes out and buys a little i10 runabout. Joe is ecstatic because now, instead of having to walk everywhere, he can drive.

Dick, on the other hand, is livid. It's not fair! He has worked hard to earn enough money to buy his Porsche, and now that Joe has his little Hyundai, Dick feels like his acheivements have been lessened. Furthermore, Dick feels that Hyundai is really ruining Joe because now Joe won't have the incentive he needs to succeed in his career and earn enough money to buy a Porsche. Worse yet, Dick is angry that he is now forced to buy a Hyundai because Joe has one. It really upsets Dick that not only does he have to drive his Porsche everyday, but he now also needs to find the time to take extra trips in his Hyundai, on top of which the driving experience of the Hyundai, relative to his amazing Porsche, is just terrible.

For the last 7 years Dick and a few of his fellow Porsche drivers organise pickets outside the Hyundai dealership demanding that it shut it doors. Dick suspects though that his message isn't getting through because he and his protesters are kinda lost among the crowd of happy people visiting the Hyundai dealership to buy cars, which is a pity, because all those ignorant idiot Hyundai drivers don't understand that they should be listening to Dick because of his super superioritynessness

Dick remains paranoid that the presence of the Hyundai shop is a threat to the survival of his beloved Porsche and that because everyone can afford a cheap little Hyundai, no one will want to buy Porsches anymore.

On a side note, something Dick hasn't really paid attention to is that fact that the local petrol station, car mechanic, panel beating shop, tyre shop and bank, all of which were on the verge of shutting down before Hyundai came to town, are now booming and look set to stay to provide the services necessary to make driving a Porsche possible. He's also failed to notice how all the potholes and traffic lights have recently been fixed now that there are actually more than 3 people using the roads.

Terrible analogy. LFR isnt like Hundai. It is Porsche with what start selling their product (content) for lower price and slighly different gear. Your analogy would be alright if LFR would be different content from Myyhic. But it isnt.

[Akka]

There is absolutely nothing factual about the absolute nonsense you wrote. It's ok to not like a feature, you really don't need to come up with a ridiculous excuse.

This kind of ad hominem is a pretty clear indication that you lack an actual argument. Thank you for validating my opinion!

This coming from the guy simply saying "you're wrong" without providing any counter is pretty precious. The only "opinion" I'm validating here is your denial.
It's ok to like a feature man, you don't have to try to dismiss facts because you don't want to hear them.

[Deleted]

Richard and Joseph live on the same street. Richard (aka Dick) has a lot more money than Joe, so he drives a Porsche Cayenne with all the extra bells and whistles and he likes to show it off to everyone. Joe doesn't have a car because the only car dealer in town is the Porsche dealer. So Joe has to walk and use public transport.

Then one day a Hyundai dealer opens up in town and starts selling cars that Joe can afford. So he goes out and buys a little i10 runabout. Joe is ecstatic because now, instead of having to walk everywhere, he can drive.

Dick, on the other hand, is livid. It's not fair! He has worked hard to earn enough money to buy his Porsche, and now that Joe has his little Hyundai, Dick feels like his acheivements have been lessened. Furthermore, Dick feels that Hyundai is really ruining Joe because now Joe won't have the incentive he needs to succeed in his career and earn enough money to buy a Porsche. Worse yet, Dick is angry that he is now forced to buy a Hyundai because Joe has one. It really upsets Dick that not only does he have to drive his Porsche everyday, but he now also needs to find the time to take extra trips in his Hyundai, on top of which the driving experience of the Hyundai, relative to his amazing Porsche, is just terrible.

For the last 7 years Dick and a few of his fellow Porsche drivers organise pickets outside the Hyundai dealership demanding that it shut it doors. Dick suspects though that his message isn't getting through because he and his protesters are kinda lost among the crowd of happy people visiting the Hyundai dealership to buy cars, which is a pity, because all those ignorant idiot Hyundai drivers don't understand that they should be listening to Dick because of his super superioritynessness

Dick remains paranoid that the presence of the Hyundai shop is a threat to the survival of his beloved Porsche and that because everyone can afford a cheap little Hyundai, no one will want to buy Porsches anymore.

On a side note, something Dick hasn't really paid attention to is that fact that the local petrol station, car mechanic, panel beating shop, tyre shop and bank, all of which were on the verge of shutting down before Hyundai came to town, are now booming and look set to stay to provide the services necessary to make driving a Porsche possible. He's also failed to notice how all the potholes and traffic lights have recently been fixed now that there are actually more than 3 people using the roads.

Terrible analogy. LFR isnt like Hundai. It is Porsche what start selling dame product (content) for lower price and with slighly different gear. Your analogy would be alright if LFR would be different content from Mythic. But it isnt.

[Devilyaki]

It stems from the entitled few that think the game should only be played their way.

[Deleted]

The only people complaining about the LFR are no lifers whose elitist spotlight has been taken away. It didn't kill the game and it didn't ruin the raiding. If you don't like it then don't do it, it's simple as that, but don't come up with bullshit false excuses to justify your own pettiness and elitism.

[Raelbo]

Gosh, you're looking at it without any perspective.

Gosh, you're rich to talk.

LFR, especially when it appeared, provided gear that was second only to the raid themselves.

Ok, so when it first appeared LFR level of gear needed to be tuned. This hasn't been an issue now for like more than 5 years.

It meant that everything else was made obsolete by a "click one button and faceroll dumbed down fights".

Nonsense. LFR is one of the less relevant forms of gearing, and even when it is used, it's typically only a small part of an overall gearing strategy that involves mythic dungeons, Mythic+, World Quests, crafting professions, PvP etc etc.

- It defines the minimal level of gear basically everyone has, and removes pre-raid progression.

Firstly, LFR comes out after the raid itself. So, no it cannot remove pre-raid progression. Secondly, anyone depending primarily on LFR to gear is going to gear up very slowly, way behind the curve.

- It causes people to get used to just click and loot, and destroy the social aspect.

Granted, it's not a particularly social activity. But let's not pretend that people not playing group activity at all is somehow any more sociable....

- It obsoletes everything that comes before it (so basically, until recentaly, all dungeons and all quests).

Firstly this is factually incorrect. LFR is only a small part of obsolescing content that comes before it. Secondly, the whole point of an MMO is to progress, so all content becomes obsolete after time. As long as that content served a purpose and was relevant for sufficient time that's not a problem.

- It created a permanent "difficulty level", which means that they have to bump up ilvl one tier up and increase the stat inflation.

False. The existence of LFR didn't require the ilvl to be higher than the previous tier. The idea of obsolescing the previous raid tier whenever a new tier arrives by means of stat inflation has nothing to do with LFR and everything to with a conscious decision by Blizzard to encourage participation in the current tier. Because the way that an expansion like TBC worked where you had to progress through every tier even if you joined a year late, was terrible. No one wants to be stuck doing a raid that has been out for a year when everyone else is enjoying the sparkly new raid.

- It makes all content immediately accessible, which means it removes the motivation of discovery.

LFR arrives very late in the content cycle. If you're not motivated by discovery by the time LFR is out, odds are that you'd not be any more motivated even if LFR didn't exist.

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Terrible analogy. LFR isnt like Hundai. It is Porsche with what start selling their product (content) for lower price and slighly different gear. Your analogy would be alright if LFR would be different content from Myyhic. But it isnt.

Or maybe you just don't like the analogy because it hits too close to home.... (the fact that you immediately recognised Porsche as Mythic and Hyundai as LFR proves that the analogy is fine)

But fine, if you insist, the insert VW Up for Hyundai i10 (I have taken the liberty of doing so in my original, thanks!). It wasn't strictly necessary, but it is an improvement

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This coming from the guy simply saying "you're wrong" without providing any counter is pretty precious.

My counter was proportionate to your argument. How am I supposed to guess where your logic became addled if you never provided any substantiation in the first place? Provide substance to your assertions and then I can tell you where you got it wrong (which I have already done btw)

It's ok to like a feature man, you don't have to try to dismiss facts because you don't want to hear them.

I am pretty agnostic about LFR. I just think that what you're trying to sell as "facts" is nonsense, and that is something I am going call out even if I didn't like LFR at all.

[Deleted]

It's simple. Some people hate LFR because they cannot stand the fact they don't get to be special in a virtual world, even as Mythic was created Blizzard had to cater to the elitist folks by giving them gear with some extra particle effects because they knew stats alone wouldn't make them feel special in comparison to the "filthy casuals" that only run LFR or Normal. But they cannot be happy about it, no, they feel obligated to still come to the forums and let people know how mad they are that LFR is a thing and they still queue on LFR even though they massively outgear it just for the free runes and sheer ecstasy of calling other people offensive slurs instead of actually trying to share some tips and tactics.

God forbid people who don't play on their level get to see the raids and experience the game events...I honestly can't wait for classic, maybe they will migrate.

Mythic players won't migrate classic imo, ppl who raids mythic looking for challange and classic cant offer that