The hate on LFR

[shaunika123]

There are plenty of incentives to encourage players into normal+ raiding currently. If they are still content with just LFR at this point, there is very likely little you can do to motivate them further.

And there isn't anything wrong with that at all.

there are, and there arent.

even if the incentives are there, LFR itself provides a false image of raiding, which discourages people to progress further.

[Tikishock]

yeah not anymore, but there used to be. which you'd know if you actually read my post :P

I blame video game companies for that. they turned gamers into this in the last decade or so, when you give someone something easily, then of course he's gonna keep expecting it.

when gaming became mainstream in the early 2000s, gaming companies started to appeal to a wider audience, not by engaging them, but by throwing stuff at them for free, because that was easier to do.

this basically turned an entire generation of kids, expecting everything to be handed to them inside games. (obviously there are many exceptions, but the overarching trends dont lie)

Sorry, I did read your post I promise--I think I just interpreted it differently and assumed it was nowadays! My bad. the gap between normal and LFR was fucking massive in cataclysm.

I think at the end of the day we both wish for the same thing--for people to be more social and see the real benefit of WoW--and that's the people and relationships you make in guilds. I finally found a guild that I love to play with in Legion after being mostly a "solo" player in PvP. I love it--it makes the game 1000% more enjoyable and I wish everybody was able to experience it.

I never once thought about meeting people online in a game in person but now I'm sitting here planning to meet my guildmates at Blizzcon next year. I consider them friends even though we've never met in person and we even exchange presents at Christmas. It's the people in my guild that keep me coming back to this game.

[shaunika123]

Well they all bit the dust didnt they

You see the moral of the story is stop listening to those hipster so called hard core (who btw most just play LFR anyway) and just listen to the silent majority.

This is the reason blizz has had to buff up leveling cause they listened to the loud minority who said bring back slow monotonous leveling just so they can recapture that old magic like some bald 40 something trying not to pretend they are going through a mid life crisis.

Blizz needs to ignore the loud minority and start to look at there own inhouse stats and make decisions based on that cause every time they do listen to the loud minority it always backfires spectacularly!! Remember WoD Flying?

meh I hate to use my trump card, but why is it that GGG can do all these things and appeal to multiple demographics without hurting the integrity of their games?

are they just lightning in a bottle that no other company can replicate?

[yetgdhfgh]

meh I hate to use my trump card, but why is it that GGG can do all these things and appeal to multiple demographics without hurting the integrity of their games?

are they just lightning in a bottle that no other company can replicate?

GGG? I have no idea what that is

[Swalload]

Could anyone explain to me all the hate on LFR? It's supposedly one of the worst things that happened to the game ever and all that. How so? The only incentive to do it is when you have no time at all to play the game just to see the raid, otherwise it's a waste of time (since the loot is pretty much worthless and you can get that level of gear without even setting a foot in a raid). Considering all the alternate gear sources (mythic dungeons that drop exactly the same item level and are doable by freshly leveled characters, low mythic+ keys, any rated PvP even if you have 0 rating, and of course warfronts), it's clear that getting decent gear from LFR is not an option, unless you're incredibly lucky.
So is the problem the idea of having people who don't play the game much witness the raids the worst thing that happened ever, or am I missing something? How does it affect the rest of the player base? I really don't understand the point behind all the hate it gets (especially given that I didn't run LFR even once during this expansion, since there are no worthwhile rewards for people who do other end game content).

LFR promotes mediocrity. Games are about the fun of overcoming a challenge. It's not about free wins. Free wins are not supposed to be satisfying, but we live in a society of people who ask for shit to be handed to them and LFR just plays into that bullshit. WoW should teach people to put effort into what you do, LFR tells them it's fine to afk and fail at everything, you'll get to see content and even get loot out of not playing correctly.

And this attitude spreads into other content of the game, look at low lvl M+ keys, people are fucking garbage, because they're used to the game telling them it's okay to fail at every single aspect of the gameplay.

[grandgato]

LFR promotes mediocrity. Games are about the fun of overcoming a challenge. It's not about free wins. Free wins are not supposed to be satisfying, but we live in a society of people who ask for shit to be handed to them and LFR just plays into that bullshit. WoW should teach people to put effort into what you do, LFR tells them it's fine to afk and fail at everything, you'll get to see content and even get loot out of not playing correctly.

And this attitude spreads into other content of the game, look at low lvl M+ keys, people are fucking garbage, because they're used to the game telling them it's okay to fail at every single aspect of the gameplay.

30 folks can queue up, and all go afk in LFR with a 100% chance of success. In fact, it's literally impossible to wipe in LFR it's so easy.

Literally impossible!

[Lorde Snow]

I don't understand too the Hate in LFR, in my opnion it's one of the best things that was incorporated in game

[shaunika123]

GGG? I have no idea what that is

Grinding Gear Games

creators of Path of Exile

[Swalload]

I don't understand too the Hate in LFR, in my opnion it's one of the best things that was incorporated in game

It promotes mediocre performance instead of inciting people to better themselves.

[Deleted]

I don't understand too the Hate in LFR, in my opnion it's one of the best things that was incorporated in game

You consider system what makes people quit WoW best thing? Ok.

[shaunika123]

It promotes mediocre performance instead of inciting people to better themselves.

it promotes no performance to be fair.

if it promoted mediocre performance that'd be a huge step up

[Raelbo]

I answer this in my post in the previous page, refer to that

I read the comment. You're arguing based on conjecture.

Firstly, the fact that raids weren't easier back then does not prove that more people would have raided had that indeed been so.

Secondly, I dispute your assertion that raids back then were even that hard (as hard as heroic is today). Back then there were still multiple difficulty levels, but they were called tiers. Karazhan was easy (like normal today), Sunwell was tough (like Mythic today).

Thirdly you're assuming that most people didn't raid because of difficulty, whereas I am saying that most people who don't raid either don't enjoy it or cannot commit to an organised raiding schedule.

that's not how humans really work though. we're not a 100% rational calculating robots, we're a very subjective. even if rationally, we might know how it works, in reality it still has an effect on how we perceive raiding through LFR.

Ok, let's say I accept your assertion. That perception doesn't have to be negative. It could just as easily be positive, leading people to try out proper raiding. Given that most people weren't interested in real raiding even before LFR, the potential exposure from LFR is a lot more likely to have a nett benefit on raiding interest.

I'll illustrate in case you aren't following:

5% of the playerbase raids. 60% of the playerbase does LFR. So going forward, without LFR, we can assume that 5% of new players would have become raiders. Now let's assume that all new players do LFR. 20% of them are put off raiding by the experience, 20% are interested in raiding because of the experience (the rest are indifferent). That's still 12% of new players interested in raiding because of LFR, which is a nett win. Even if we massively fudge the numbers to suit your argument, and an unprecedented 50% are put off raiding by the LFR experience (now ask yourself, if that number of LFR players hate it that much, how is it possible that 60% of the playerbase still participates in it?) and a mere 10% are spurred to check out real raiding, that's still 6%, which is still a nett win.

[yetgdhfgh]

Grinding Gear Games

creators of Path of Exile

Ah i c

TBH iam 40 years old now and i know alot of people who are the same age of me.

You gotta remember for people like me WOW is now like a comfortable piece of leather and the days of stressing my balls out on a tuesday night is long gone for me BUT i still enjoy the journey and doing raids but when all i get is 'No Achieve No Way' when i try to pug i ask myself is it worth it? and many other people feel the same way clearly and blizz knows it.

Thats the reason LFR isnt going away cause there is alot of people like myself who do it.

At the end of the day this is how the game is going to be till it gets switched off and Blizz knows it cause lets face it WoW isnt getting many new faces so it depends on old fucks like me.

You may not agree with that you may not even like it but as long as us old fuck casuals keep giving our money they will keep LFR open.

[Beerbill Society]

The existence of Heroic and Mythic and the fact that people still participate therein disproves this.



LFR is letting the man fish in a smaller pool.* Nothing stops him from venturing out into the sea to chase bigger, more lucrative rewards** if that is what appeals to him.

Heroic and Mythic are just band-aid fixes on a bad design.

I won't dwell too much on this subject, because I have written a few essays already on this.

Ever since the inclusion of LFR in Cataclysm, WoW have been going down hill, not doomsaying it is the reason by is definitely a symptom. Over years of discussion on this subject, I'm yet to see any official number proving LFR brought any improvements to the table.

Now following my own analogy:

*So basically you are allowing the men fish on a controlled environment that he is guaranteed to get what he wants, basically, giving him the fish. What would be the incentive for the men to keep fishing if his hunger is sated?

**Which are? Gear with huge numbers that will get shrunk at the next squish? Maybe a change of colors? Self-Asslicking on a third part website that says you are part of the top hundred guilds?

Gear importance has devalued greatly over each new iteration of WoW, the lack of uniqueness, excessive amount of upgrades and bad timing, degradation of item quality, appearance not mattering due transmog, lack of personalization and personal attachment (that used to have with reforging/gem/enchanting/upgrade/tier), over simplification of stats and reduction of secundary, squishs and ilvl scalated content, removal of RPG elements, to name a few. Do you really think gear matter anymore?

Everything else can be accomplished through LFR with much less effort.

(Not arguing if those changes were good or bad mind you, just saying they impact on the effort x reward value).

My personal experience with LFR is that it's not fun, used it a lot in MoP, enjoyed for a few fights that were actually difficulty (like Dark Shamans, Blackfuse, Paragons and Garrosh) that you actually wiped and had to perform with minimal effort the machanics.

But the lack of commitment, randomness, lack of empathy and interaction with people (which sometimes leads to toxity), brainless mechanics, rush and zerg strategy and being reward for that is harmful for the game health, is endorsing bad behavior.

People will play it casually, grow tired because it brings nothing to the table, start wondering why they pay 15 bucks/mo for that kind of experience and just give up.

Blizzard had casual raiding that worked, it was called Naxxaramas and it was great. You will only hear complaints from elitist that hardly finished Ulduar.

[shaunika123]

Ah i c

TBH iam 40 years old now and i know alot of people who are the same age of me.

You gotta remember for people like me WOW is now like a comfortable piece of leather and the days of stressing my balls out on a tuesday night is long gone for me BUT i still enjoy the journey and doing raids but when all i get is 'No Achieve No Way' when i try to pug i ask myself is it worth it? and many other people feel the same way clearly and blizz knows it.

Thats the reason LFR isnt going away cause there is alot of people like myself who do it.

At the end of the day this is how the game is going to be till it gets switched off and Blizz knows it cause lets face it WoW isnt getting many new faces so it depends on old fucks like me.

You may not agree with that you may not even like it but as long as us old fuck casuals keep giving our money they will keep LFR open.

I know LFR isnt going away, my entire argument thus far has been, that it's never shouldve been implemented in the first palce, and blizzard shouldve found better ways to engage non raiders.

now that it's in, pandora's box has been opened, and it can't ever be removed now.

but they couldve put in better systems that are more MMO like instead.

[roberts282]

LFR made sense when it came out and the only real end-game content was raiding.

Now we have Warfronts, Artifact Grinding, World Quests, Mythic+ Dungeons, PVP Weekly rewards and of course Raiding. Not to mention other "in-between" activities like Achievements/Transmogs/Questing and so on.

While the original thought was "hey, people that are busy can experience raiding, while others will use this as a stepping stone to get gear" that doesn't ring true anymore. No matter what time of the day you log on you can search LFM and find someone running a Normal Uldir or higher. You could join them for 1 hour, 2 hours, a full clear, whatever. There's no need to stay, which is just like LFR. Yes, there's the argument that "you don't have gear" but if you've been doing dailies and few M+ dungeons there's no reason you shouldn't have at least 350ilvl by now.

[yetgdhfgh]

I know LFR isnt going away, my entire argument thus far has been, that it's never shouldve been implemented in the first palce, and blizzard shouldve found better ways to engage non raiders.

Well tbh LFR shouldve been introduced gradually

I mean christ i remember how bad Dragon Soul LFR was and i still remember the ninjaing by top guilds cause of how good the Tier sets was.

TBH i think blizz has now gotten a nice balance with what they have what with those who raid Mythic getting different skin gear.

At the end of the day back then you either joined a guild which i did and boy was that not fun being benched time and time again, pugging where it was Gearscore or get lost and now you got Achieve or get lost.

I truly believe Blizz has struck the right balance now but maybe its come too late but then the game is now in its 14th year!! I honestly know players who wasnt even born when this game started!!

[Raelbo]

LFR isnt even raiding. it's just not. it's basically an hour long cinematic of the bossfights.

Obviously there is a vast difference between real raiding and LFR. But to argue that there are no similarities is either ignorance or disingenuous.

Bosses in LFR don't just fall over. If the players all went afk the raid would wipe. Sure, mechanically it is very watered down, but there are definitely elements of the real raid in there.

everything about it is antithetical to what raiding really is. and that's the point.

A point I already acknowledged in my argument. So I am not sure how you think repeating it affects what I was saying. I mean yes, I get it. LFR is not the authentic raid experience. That doesn't mean it's going to give everyone delusions of grandeur or that it's going to deter people from trying out the authentic experience.

[Danner]

LFR is a means for people who don't raid to see raid content.
In a game where the major storylines tie up with raid content, this makes a total amount of sense. This way everyone get to see the story concluding.
In a game where raid content is tied to epic challenges, LFR makes far less sense.

The issue is down to sense of accomplishment.
Player A spent 3 weeks wiping hard on a the final boss.
Player B fell asleep halfway through an LFR and still getting the same "credit".
Of course player A is gonna complain. They put in so much more effort. Where's the payoff? A measly 15 ilevels on items that are worthless in a month or two anyway?
Player A will be ever so slightly bitter about that.

And thus this is a topic. Personally - I couldn't care less about that bitterness. I've seen both sides of the coin. Raiding isn't about the loot anyway.

[shaunika123]

A point I already acknowledged in my argument. So I am not sure how you think repeating it affects what I was saying. I mean yes, I get it. LFR is not the authentic raid experience. That doesn't mean it's going to give everyone delusions of grandeur or that it's going to deter people from trying out the authentic experience.

and I think it will(well not everyone, but a lot of people), so that kinda leaves us at an empass doesn't it ?:P

agree to disagree I guess

Obviously there is a vast difference between real raiding and LFR. But to argue that there are no similarities is either ignorance or disingenuous.

Bosses in LFR don't just fall over. If the players all went afk the raid would wipe. Sure, mechanically it is very watered down, but there are definitely elements of the real raid in there.

yes, the bosses wouldN'T die, but the thing is, when you have 24 basically NPCs (since you're randomly matched with them, and are just non interactive players) with you, you dont feel the responsibility, you just randomly press keys and jump around and the boss dies. and even when you wipe, you wont go "well I couldve done it better"
you go "damnit im with a shitty group"

and that's your experience. "oh that's all I need to do for the boss to die, neat"