AP: The catch-ups are real.

[Schizoide]

Blizzard... always punishing those that grind things early.

On one side, this feels bad because you want to avoid playing the game until next week. And then next week. And the week after that.

On the other side, grinding is terrible gameplay and it should never be incentivized.

These sorts of problems are largely unavoidable in any kind of infinite progression system. And that's why infinite progression is bad. Every artifact level should cost the exact same amount of AP, and the maximum level should be capped at (say) 20. And then when 8.1 comes out with new content, increase the cap to 40. And so on. The idea being that if grind it out quick, it'll take 40 hours to max-out the necklace. And if you do time-gated stuff like emissaries and weekly IEs, it'll take 20 hours. And when you're done, you're done, until the next major patch.

[Daffan]

This is a function of the player and what they're doing in the game. As long as the player is putting the appropriate amount of effort into gathering AP for the content they are playing then it's not wasted time. For a player who is pushing progression, that having the extra few levels earlier does make a difference and translates into more rapid progression, more boss kills, more loot etc. But for a player who has no reason to need those extra levels now, today, yes, it is a wasted effort.

I can't say that I really have any sympathy for self inflicted foolishness though.

The problem is, that once people work this out (like you have) the whole game becomes a lulz.

Because only 1% of the playerbase actually need the gear/ap they are farming.

[rohoz]

The problem is, that once people work this out (like you have) the whole game becomes a lulz.

Because only 1% of the playerbase actually need the gear/ap they are farming.

that's intentional. there are things for cutting edge mindset individuals to do, and they aren't required if you don't have that mindset.
Kinda why M+ reward caps at 10. You *can* push higher if you want to, and you'll get rewarded. Do you *need* to? no not at all

[Marrilaife]

These sorts of problems are largely unavoidable in any kind of infinite progression system. And that's why infinite progression is bad. Every artifact level should cost the exact same amount of AP, and the maximum level should be capped at (say) 20. And then when 8.1 comes out with new content, increase the cap to 40. And so on. The idea being that if grind it out quick, it'll take 40 hours to max-out the necklace. And if you do time-gated stuff like emissaries and weekly IEs, it'll take 20 hours. And when you're done, you're done, until the next major patch.

Then you have all the people complaining about "artificial timegating" or that "they're done, so might as well unsub". It's a prime case of "can never win".

[Accendor]

The system they are balancing aims to keep the rewards real but not make-or-break, the same balance they eventually reached with Concordance in Legion. Those who push the envelope on AP will always be a step or two ahead, but those with less time or inclination will not feel left out.

They just fail with balancing lol

[Khallid]

The only issue I find is it happens very often that the neck will level up and I will get no rewards from it.

My last upgrade was at neck level 26, my next upgrade is at level 31, and all my azerite pieces are the same item level, so it's not wonkiness from having the ilvls mixed. The wall of AP between those values is so large I stopped caring about AP several weeks ago.

[unbound]

Just realized my alt is 28 necklace, while my main is only 30.
I do the same things on both: 4 WQs/day for emissary, 4 Islands/week for bonus, weekly guild raid, and a bit of M+.
My main has 7x the time played, but is only 2 levels ahead on neck.

I'd say Blizz did pretty good at making BfA alt-friendly.

Wait until you find out that you have to grind out Champions of Azeroth rep on each alt to get your necklace to a decent ilvl...

[Schizoide]

Then you have all the people complaining about "artificial timegating" or that "they're done, so might as well unsub". It's a prime case of "can never win".

Some people will complain about anything, sure. That isn't a reason not to make changes.

And yes, infinite progression-- while largely meaningless in terms of actual character power-- is progression. And progression aids retention. Some people would indeed quit. I hope that would be compensated by other people going "Hey, the game lets me do what I enjoy and doesn't try to funnel me into increasing a worthless number, I like that!". But every change is a gamble.

@unbound: That's fixed in 8.1. If any of your characters are revered, you can get the 45 itemlvls right away on your alts.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Wait until you find out that you have to grind out Champions of Azeroth rep on each alt to get your necklace to a decent ilvl...

? I found that out when I leveled my alt? And it took care of itself within a week or two of hitting 120?

I mean, emissaries, table missions, and occasional world quests... Not sure exactly how much time I spent on it, but it really wasn't much of a grind.

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They just fail with balancing lol

• Some players want a way to progress their character every time they log into game, and some players log in a LOT.
• Some players want to raid with their mates two-three times a week, without feeling forced to play 7 days a week to stay competitive.

The current system is an effort to accommodate both. I'm not saying they couldn't tweak the balance one way or the other, but the overall system is a good compromise, imho.

[MildCore]

Yeah i do love those changes.. and even more coming next month

As do I. Never feel pressured to play the game in fear of missing out or anything. Play when I want, as I want and that's good enough. Good to know a game doesn't need to suck the life out of me for me to be remotely viable in any non-hardcore/highly competitive sense.

Now the only other change to this game's structure that I could want is a shift away from monthly subscription and more towards a pay-as-you go. (or at least an option for either with monthly being the go-to for those who play every day)

[Raelbo]

Or it rewards you for not playing and waiting until the catch-ups kick in.

No it doesn't. There is quite literally no reward for not playing.

Just because a player has an easier time getting to, say, level 25 if they start playing now, doesn't mean they are getting rewarded more than the people who hit that landmark 6 weeks ago. Quite the opposite, in fact, because the person who hasn't been playing has been missing out for weeks.

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The problem is, that once people work this out (like you have) the whole game becomes a lulz.

I am enjoying myself just fine thanks. That's probably because I play the way it was designed to be played. I see no reason why anyone else shouldn't be able to do the same. The problem is when people haven't worked this out as I have and they end up forcing themselves to grind way beyond their need.

If you know what your need is and put in an appropriate amount of AP grind, then the system is very rewarding. For example, AP is a decent motivation for me do a few extra WQs or a few island expeditions to push me to my next level. But I also realise that there is no value in continuing to push way beyond the point of fun/enjoyment just for one more level. It's simply a question of pacing and recognising that devoting an hour of play to pushing myself to get an extra level before my next raid is something worth doing, while devoting an extra 12 for another level on top of that, while possible, isn't worth it.

Because only 1% of the playerbase actually need the gear/ap they are farming.

Everyone needs to farm gear/ap to some extent. The key is figuring out the right level effort based on the content you are doing.

[Accendor]

• Some players want a way to progress their character every time they log into game, and some players log in a LOT.
• Some players want to raid with their mates two-three times a week, without feeling forced to play 7 days a week to stay competitive.

The current system is an effort to accommodate both. I'm not saying they couldn't tweak the balance one way or the other, but the overall system is a good compromise, imho.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. It is just that the current system is not a compromise. It just caters to one of the factions and that it the second one
"Some players want to raid with their mates two-three times a week, without feeling forced to play 7 days a week to stay competitive."

The thing is: We are currently at a point where they could basically remove this reward system completely and replace it with an automatic power increase every weak, because the difference in power between getting it NOW or in 3 weeks is abysmal, but it is way, ways faster in 3 weeks.

In my opinion every progression system needs to have a reason to exist in the first place. If it makes no difference that you try to progress way harder than many others, because the global system is balanced around having everybody on approximately the same level you have to ask yourself: Why do we have this system in the first place?

And this bring other problems as well, because if the system is basically not necessary then the reward structure for a lot of content does not work anymore (e.g. world quests, Island expedition). You might disagree with that, but if you look at all the complains since week 2 of BfA you will see that this are two of the main topics people complain about.

[Daffan]

that's intentional. there are things for cutting edge mindset individuals to do, and they aren't required if you don't have that mindset.
Kinda why M+ reward caps at 10. You *can* push higher if you want to, and you'll get rewarded. Do you *need* to? no not at all

But it's bad because as soon as a casual works it out he jumps ship.

[rohoz]

But it's bad because as soon as a casual works it out he jumps ship.

Not all "casuals" are lazy, low hanging fruit. My group of friends (none of which raid or are in noteworthy guilds) push keys when the time is right. What matters is if you enjoy it or not. A lot of "casuals" are bad and struggle to get to a 10. A lot aren't.

[miwonehema]

Yeah the only thing that changed that before if you were a sole hunter in a raid full of cloths you got your armor quicker, now the cloths gets it quicker and the hunter has no one to trade with / from. Just an example, but old system promoted having more equal distribution between armor types and tier token types, now if you could make the whole raid from only cloth / leather, you should. Less wasted loot. Dunno how that promotes better gameplay.

Also under old system you had a guaranteed amount of tier tokens drop on mythic (2 per tier dropping boss afaik), in personal you can go for ages without seeing azerite piece, especially some slots have only 1 item per armor type (for example plate shoulder). At least from what I know new raid will have more azerite on the loot table and you won't be stuck fishing for that single item.

Personally I'm more counting on the 8.1 azerite vendor than the raid drops, because luck isn't on my side so far. Guess what, I open my weekly m+ cache and second helmet... while my other azerites are stuck at 370. To incentivize people to grind you need to make the rewards reasonably attainable and feeling a genuine upgrade.

Since they made rewards a low chance RNG they dig themselves into a hole with azerite - make traits impactful and people are stuck with 340 / 355 shoulder with "impactful" trait over all the 370 / 385 ones with non-impactful one. Make traits non-impactful and interchangeable with each other so ilvl rules, you undermined the whole system, azerite is now meaningless and people don't give a shit about the traits. It was similar problem with legion legendaries. Either there's a BIS and you feel bad for not having it, or there's no BIS and you don't care to grind for them because none of them are good.

In my opinion the vendor is a big step in correct direction - give people incentive to grind for a reward they crave. Then they will also wish to grind AP to unlock the traits if they know they're getting that piece with x traits in y amount of time, so they might as well prepare. They might start doing emissaries again when it's azerite cache, even if they know the traits on these aren't useful, they can scrap them into a bit of extra currency.

yeah you sound like someone that doesn't do much raiding and is buttfrustrated that you can't get lucky
everyone in my guild that raids mythic has full 385 azerite, everyone raiding in other guilds that I know of is in full 385 too.

Also, months can go without "your token" dropping. Nothing changed

[Buildapanda]

I saw this thread in my dreams

[Marrilaife]

yeah you sound like someone that doesn't do much raiding and is buttfrustrated that you can't get lucky

How does 8/8 mythic count as "not much raiding" no idea. Never seen the chest from Vectis drop, saw chest from Zul drop to someone else who needed it, same with shoulders from Mythrax. So yes, I legit have 2 370 azerites with helmet from m+ cache. Tell me how can I "raid more" to replace the items. Thanks in advance.

[miwonehema]

How does 8/8 mythic count as "not much raiding" no idea. Never seen the chest from Vectis drop, saw chest from Zul drop to someone else who needed it, same with shoulders from Mythrax. So yes, I legit have 2 370 azerites with helmet from m+ cache. Tell me how can I "raid more" to replace the items. Thanks in advance.

You're just unlucky, then. People have cleared mythic raids in heroic pieces. Happens. Use your bonus rolls. Reminds me of how I went through all of mythic BRF with a weapon from highmaul.

[Marrilaife]

You're just unlucky, then. People have cleared mythic raids in heroic pieces. Happens. Use your bonus rolls. Reminds me of how I went through all of mythic BRF with a weapon from highmaul.

Well it's pretty obvious people use all the bonus rolls they can... Not that you can cherry pick which item from the loot table you get. Plus this expansion we have no mission cache unlike last 2 (yes I was sending these in wod and legion, you couldn't get tiers but you could get trinkets) and we get 1 less coin per week (and no extra coins from missions and timewalking, another reason removed to do timewalking except on low geared alts).

Tbh as I said I'm mostly eager to see the azerite vendor, even though they just announced the extra row of traits won't appear until January and new raid, so guess I'll just sit on the currency until then, assuming the currency drops from the patch launch, and not from January as well.

[Raelbo]

Ok, I see where you are coming from. It is just that the current system is not a compromise. It just caters to one of the factions and that it the second one
"Some players want to raid with their mates two-three times a week, without feeling forced to play 7 days a week to stay competitive."

It also caters to the first camp. People who play a lot will have an advantage. What makes the system clever - and why the Artifact Knowledge (or whatever they call it these days) aspect of the design is important - is camp two doesn't progressively start to fall behind.

Essentially, someone who plays twice as much as you will be a week ahead of you i.t.o artifact progression. Someone who plays 4 times as much as you will be 2 weeks ahead, and so on. If they slow down, or you speed up, then that gap will narrow.

In other words pushing hard on AP cannot give you a permanent advantage on someone. Your level of progress - and the benefit you currently derive - will typically be a function of the work you've put in during the last 4-6 weeks.

The thing is: We are currently at a point where they could basically remove this reward system completely and replace it with an automatic power increase every weak, because the difference in power between getting it NOW or in 3 weeks is abysmal, but it is way, ways faster in 3 weeks.

No. That would have a fundamentally different outcome. You seem to focussing solely on the endgame - where we land up (which is basically pointless in an MMO because all gear becomes deprecated over time). AP has an effect on where you are here and now. Players who sink extra effort into the acquisition of AP will have an earned advantage over players who have put in less effort. It's not a permanent advantage though, and if they want to maintain it, they need to keep working at it. But for competitive play, whether it's people for whom the world/server races matter, or just someone who wants to perform better for his guild, it makes a difference.

In my opinion every progression system needs to have a reason to exist in the first place. If it makes no difference that you try to progress way harder than many others, because the global system is balanced around having everybody on approximately the same level you have to ask yourself: Why do we have this system in the first place?

Hopefully my explanations above have led you to the answer - which is of course that even if the levels are not that far apart, there is still a differentiator. Being a few levels ahead of other players does give you a palpable advantage. Given that the amulet contributes around 25-30% of your secondary stats, getting 3-4 levels ahead of someone translates into a roughly a 5-10% performance advantage.

And this bring other problems as well, because if the system is basically not necessary then the reward structure for a lot of content does not work anymore (e.g. world quests, Island expedition). You might disagree with that, but if you look at all the complains since week 2 of BfA you will see that this are two of the main topics people complain about.

The complaints around world quests and Island Expeditions are that people simply don't enjoy them. If AP was that important that people felt compelled to do content that they don't enjoy, that is not a good thing.

The whole of point of AP as a reward system is that it's meant to reward for doing stuff you enjoy, not to force/coerce you into doing stuff you don't enjoy in pursuit of more AP. So the fact that people aren't doing island expeditions or WQ's is actually evidence that the AP system is working as intended.

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But it's bad because as soon as a casual works it out he jumps ship.

No he doesn't. If a casual player is not doing the activities necessary to accumulate AP that's not a problem with the AP system, it's a problem with the activities themselves.

Casuals don't jump ship because they have no incentive to grind things they don't enjoy, they jump ship because the content is unenjoyable.