[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Deleted]

Is this a bit of a shift?

From Corbyn:

https://labourlist.org/2018/11/corby...vote-campaign/

If no general election is possible, he will *categorically* support a second vote?

Any of our Momentum lot care to contribute?

Like @Helden... I'll vote Labour in a heartbeat. Just give me the reason.

It's not really a shift, and it's more of a realization that May isn't going to fall for the same General Election trap again so the Peoples Vote is the only card he's got left to play.

But yeah, i'm full in on Labour if they give me that option, Corbyns problems can be dealt with later down the line, Brexit is a problem now.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Corbyn isn't really populist, no. He is a socialist ideologue. Populism in its essence is about division. You name the people and you name an opposing class (e.g. the City, the coastal elites). You define the people as moral and the elites as immoral. Now socialism very often does that (the stories of the depravity of the nobility and/or the bourgeoisie were very common and Stalinists even embraced social conservatism against the roots of the communist movement simply to reinforce these points) but it doesn't have to. When Corbyn calls for redistribution, is his central argument that the rich have an asymmetric access to wealth and opportunity or that the wealthy are corrupt and like committing acts of depravity? If the latter, he is a populist socialist, otherwise he is simply a classical socialist.

Good post. Isn't that all a bit Marxist critical theory, though? Is it possible to have a populist leader who doesn't espouse division e.g., Ghandi?

[ranzino]

there is still the big trap to fall into: hard "no deal" Brexit is the automatism unless you take action against it. arguing for to long will solve nothing.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Is this a bit of a shift?

From Corbyn:

https://labourlist.org/2018/11/corby...vote-campaign/

If no general election is possible, he will *categorically* support a second vote?

Any of our Momentum lot care to contribute?

Like @Helden... I'll vote Labour in a heartbeat. Just give me the reason.

It's not a shift; even though his recent quotes were reported as "Brexit can't be stopped" what he actually said was "Brexit can't be stopped BY US". Which is factually correct, not being the government, it's out of Labour hands. He never ruled out the possibility of a second vote, but it wasn't the preferred option for Labour, they would be MUCH happier with another election.

And by pushing the responsibility away, they are making it much harder for the press to paint Labour as the enemy of Brexit. If it's going to happen, it's going to be owned by the Tories 100%. If the second vote is going to happen, then the Tories will be the ones that have to start the process. Labour can then support it "reluctantly" but it will still be the Tories driving it. So the fallout from those people that wanted Brexit comes down primarily on the heads of the Tories.

It's actually been fairly sensible. Step back and let the Tories fuck up all on their own. If Labour stepped into this particular pit of shit, the only thing that was going to happen was that Labour would end up stinking as well, and voters would have a hard time telling them apart. This way there is clear water between the two parties.

[Deleted]

Yeah everyone has always called them a single issue party, I kind of assumed they must have had some other platform as well? Guess not.

Naw, every other "policy" they've ever even considered pushing has been asburdist to the point that not even there own base takes it on board "vote for us and we'll create more jobs and you'll have to work less" "vote for us and we'll cut taxes but increase public spending" the usual populist bs.

UKIP got super lucky that the referendum was happened around the same time as the mass migrations from the Middle East, without that they'd have done basically nothing in the lead up to the referendum.

[Nigel Tufnel]

There is no hint of populism in Ghandi. And I don't think you can apply critical theory when discussing politics, they are inherently political after all!

Yep, again... fair enough.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-...tivism/9711376

So, Ghandi championed diversity whereas populists fear it?

[Slant]

Sadly Euroskepticism has been a rallying cause for the far right across Europe to the very sad effect that they have hijacked constructive skepticism which is so very needed.

Oh, it's there. Trust me, I'm not super happy with the EU in a few aspects myself. But as these things go, when you have something as clear and unambiguous to oppose as the idiocy of Brexit, it's easy to put that scepticism on the shelf for now and deal with the bigger problem of Idiocracy. Once this business is over, one way or the other, we'll be back to bickering about the normal stuff, how to "fix" Southern Europe, how to "fix" Eastern Europe. How to prevent Germany from ruling everyone with sheer economic might, how to stand up against Russia, China and the US... you know, the small stuff.

[Noradin]

I mean there is a reason dribbles is insipidly droning on about tick tock.

No, that's coincidence.

[Slant]

Yep, again... fair enough.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-...tivism/9711376

So, Ghandi championed diversity whereas populists fear it?

I think Ghandi didn't so much champion diversity as much as he tried to show commonality in India. I'm pretty certain he'd have had a much easier time if there were only Hindus to worry about, but the national identity to him transgressed religion and ethnicity and simply included all "Indians". I think he was a very secular man in that it was more inclusion rather than conscious diversification.

It's the same fucked up misunderstanding people have about Germany. No, we don't want to diverse. Why would we? But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at including the diverse groups that we have in the country, because otherwise they are vulnerable to radicalisation.

[Slant]

The problem is:
a) we don't have the time for diversions
b) the unrelenting Europhiles can attack any skeptic by tarring them as reactionary far right. Macron is doing just that.

No, what he's doing is attack very specific arguments. And if you're a sceptic coming to me with simple anti-EU propaganda, I'll attack you as a reactionary myself. But if you have solid criticism and a good idea on how to solve it, I'll be unable to attack you with that label.

We've had a few rows about Greece, you and me. And you will have to admit that I never went "Oh, you're just being like that because you're Greek", I've always maintained a certain position and argued for it. Oh, we don't agree a lot on the Greek question, but I wouldn't call you a blind reactionary wailing against the EU just because it's the EU.

Look at Dribbles... to this day he has not come up with one (!) piece of information that would legitimize his irrational hatred for the EU.

[Pannonian]

AfD has ties to fascism moreso than populism I think. But he left when they had a split so he is probably just far right, not fascist right. But I might be completely wrong, so better ask one of the many Germans here

He was one of the morepro-business/anti-EU people that were originally much more prevalent in the AfD. Most of them left when Lucke lost the internal struggle against the extreme right.

[Acidbaron]

Sadly Euroskepticism has been a rallying cause for the far right across Europe to the very sad effect that they have hijacked constructive skepticism which is so very needed.

Nothing wrong with skepticism i belong to a party that is very much that, however there's still a world difference between being a watchdog on the EU and going for an EU exit without thought.

[Dhrizzle]

The thing is, I cannot actually blame them for resigning. This is a horrible deal. She completely folded I mean the EU didn't even agree to a reasonable end date. And she got NOTHING in return, the City will be stuck working with equivalences, losing about 70-75% of traffic in EURO over the next few years. There is absolutely no reason to take this deal, Remain or No Deal with the full acceptance that this says goodbye to the GFA are the only options.

And you know what, maybe ending the GFA needs to happen. I mean they have had a couple of decades under it and obviously the old divisions are barely healed. Just agree that the GFA will be kept for the next 2-3 years with a clean end date, give companies time to consolidate their assets on either side of the border as they choose and go on with their lives. And if the Troubles do happen again, try to deal with them properly this time.
If NI hates that, the GFA always allows them to secede to the RoI after a joint referendum.

The only ones I pity are the Scottish because who knows how they would have voted it if they voted NOW.

You're completely wrong about the GFA not working. The Troubles in NI have mostly been a generational thing - it became less about Unionists/Republicans or Protestants/Catholics and more about the anger over having fathers/mothers/aunts/uncles/grandparents etc killed. In NI we currently have young adults who have never been affected by the violence and it is those, along with the children following them, who carry the hopes of finally putting the whole matter to bed, but that will take time, possible another 20 or more years.

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Or they could actually try to fucking FIX the problem instead. Fix it by bringing the hammer down to any agressions, no matter the side (so yes, prosecute the Unionists harassing the Irish with no preferential treatment whatsoever) and by having the best trained police force they can handle stationed in Ireland. Heck bring only Scottish cops there.

Heavy-handed policing - including the army at one point - really didn't help the situation much.

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You, and all the others here, have still not explained the process by which we will arrive at anything other than a no deal. You don't have the power in parliament and you don't have the time.

No deal is the only credible option with an out of time impotent parliament left on the table. Time for me to crack open the champagne I think.

Stop with the over excited hyperbole and explain the process by which we get no brexit or Mays deal.

None of you have done that, because you can't. No deal it is.

Could just hold another referendum and ask people if they really want to shoot themselves in the foot.

[oathy]

Its madness. You know things are bad when its making Trumps antics look normal
Mogg wont be happy till the penny farthing is the main mode of transport
and scullery maids are common place. Yes he's that stuck in the past.

the days of Empire a long gone but seems to live under this impression leaving the EU
will fix all that.

The "deal" as it stands its more logical just to remain within the EU, We keep the rebate
but more import can fight for reforms at the table, A lot has changed just look how Italy is really
kicking off about its budget, And other countries really concerned about the migration issues.

sky news is pretty right wing (not as bad as fox news) but even polls they are conducting now
show people want to remain within the EU. Fact of the matter is May's government have failed
its been a farce from the start. The Faux outrage she shows at the mention of another vote
if it wasn't so serious would be hilarious

[Dhrizzle]

Is this a bit of a shift?

From Corbyn:

https://labourlist.org/2018/11/corby...vote-campaign/

If no general election is possible, he will *categorically* support a second vote?

Any of our Momentum lot care to contribute?

Like @Helden... I'll vote Labour in a heartbeat. Just give me the reason.

At the Labour conference Corbyn said he was personally against a second referendum but allowed party membership to vote, so the parties current position is to push for a "people's vote" on any deal which could include the option of remaining in the EU.

[Slant]

Can I just leave this here...



Seriously, they're lying to themselves. And May is the biggest liar of them all. What's funny is that I realised the way she's shouting in defiance at Corbyn, she's really shouting at the EU. This is the only way she can act defiant, because the EU wouldn't have that kind of childish behaviour in the negotiations. British politics is a joke when you realise that the Scottish MP made more sense than... basically every other dude in the House. And obviously he takes it more serious, too.

[dribbles]

Could just hold another referendum and ask people if they really want to shoot themselves in the foot.

Let's run with that, what if remain won 52/48 in the next one? Surely it would have to be best of three and then where do you stop. No it's a non starter and this talk of another "peoples vote" is a nonsense, who voted in the last one two years ago, squirrels?

As Mrs May is sticking to her proposed deal, more likely when the parliamentary meaningful vote fails (rumours of 10th December) is a general election, and after that who knows.

[Holston]

Voting clearly doesn't matter just bend the knee to your sovereign.

[ranzino]

Let's run with that, what if remain won 52/48 in the next one? Surely it would have to be best of three and then where do you stop. No it's a non starter and this talk of another "peoples vote" is a nonsense, who voted in the last one two years ago, squirrels?

As Mrs May is sticking to her proposed deal, more likely when the parliamentary meaningful vote fails (rumours of 10th December) is a general election, and after that who knows.

nobody will ask for a third ref.

[Slant]

Let's run with that, what if remain won 52/48 in the next one? Surely it would have to be best of three and then where do you stop. No it's a non starter and this talk of another "peoples vote" is a nonsense, who voted in the last one two years ago, squirrels?

As Mrs May is sticking to her proposed deal, more likely when the parliamentary meaningful vote fails (rumours of 10th December) is a general election, and after that who knows.

You don't get it. I mean, I'm not surprised... but I'll point it out for the semi-intelligent readers...

It's not a do-over referendum. It's a referendum on a concrete result. What you're glorifying there was a referendum that basically asked "in or out?" without any context, any consequences... any concrete details about what that entails. Fine, so you have the mission to find out the options, you get your options... and then what, who decides which "out" is the right one? May? I mean, she can either crash out or swallow the EU's deal, both are technically "out". She can throw NI under the bus or not, that's part of out. She can go a little out by doing a Norway model. A little more out with a Canada model. Hey, she can just revoke Art. 50, make a statement that the UK would not be taking part in the Commission any longer and for that lack of definition, it would count as an out, too.

I know, I know, you don't care about details and just want to see "your" country burn.. but others might be interested in having a say in which version of out they'd like to be in. Or... if all options are shite (hint: they are), perhaps they would rather stay in...