Titanforging is here to stay

[sam86]

Are you saying 10% odds are not gambling just because its higher than .01%? You do realize in actual casino gambling there are games with higher than 10% odds of winning, would you sit there and say that's not gambling?

a 10% won't make u give up like 0.01% (or 0.02? anyway still in tiny fraction), specially since - unlike gambling - u have to work a lot more to get ur gear, not just put money and done
yes most ppl won't even bother with an 0.01% chance for something, it only result in being extremely pissed off when it drops on ur alt run, and make u unable to enjoy any alt run because of fear of lose ur BiS gear on main
it does NOT result in continue of ppl raiding on mains unless extremely rare, it isn't fun for anyone, it just make everyone hate it, the only ppl who feel happy the 0.01% who do get it on main during - usually - the progress runs

[Deleted]

Goodbye World of Warcraft. I had fun, but it's over.

[sam86]

I understand perfectly fine how the game worked, i was there when it was current. yeah, blizzard gonna timegate raids, but raids gonna be cleared way faster with todays players and the addons we gonna have in classic, inspired by todays addons. Molten core was cleared in 1 hour and 10 minutes by The Axemen. When it was current. Don't you think the simple mechanics back then gonna be facerolled ? You overestimate it so hard. The only reason people gonna stay subbed is due to the timegating. Content gonna be finished real fast. No mystery, most people know the game, those who don't can and will google it.

again during vanilla u could calculate when u'll get ur chest, it costs 150 dkp+, u have highest dkp in ur raid, drop chance 10%, u know u'll get it in max 10 run if u really have the worst luck, in vanilla while due to cheer number of raiders + limited gear u know u won't get all gear u want, u can plan to get that chest u wanted from onyxia easily, u know that at worst at 10th run u'll get it, and that chest is 100% the BEST chest in-game until next raid is out who knows when, u won't need chest again, u can run onyxia on alts for fun as much as u want
compare it to current system, the BiS gear is TF, chance u get it is 0.01%, u can spend raiding non stop until next tier drop and won't get it, u'll get the chest from ghunn but u won't be satisfied because ur mind knows ur gear isn't complete and u missing BiS, u either (mostly) log on alt only to pull ur hair out if it drops, or u stay on ur main f8cking bored until that chest drop who knows when, u CAN'T calculate when u can get BiS gear, the 'worst case scenario' is in the 1000 run, not 10 run, yes u'll get full epic gear, but for BiS ? u'll get one or none at all for ur gear, u'll always feel unsatisfied because ur brain knows u didn't finish/complete ur character
In vanilla u can tell by next raid out how many gear u can get prior, u can calculate it, since MoP+ u can't, the chance is so random (anything between 1st run up to 1000th) u can get the BiS chest, that RNG up to 11
As for why blizz is keeping it is simple, same reason as they keeping LFG, or X-realm, or pruning

[miwonehema]

Already did. Unsubscribed last month because of how hollow the character progression was in BfA.

gear/char progression has been the most diverse it has ever been but ok, cya

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again during vanilla u could calculate when u'll get ur chest, it costs 150 dkp+, u have highest dkp in ur raid, drop chance 10%, u know u'll get it in max 10 run if u really have the worst luck, in vanilla while due to cheer number of raiders + limited gear u know u won't get all gear u want, u can plan to get that chest u wanted from onyxia easily, u know that at worst at 10th run u'll get it, and that chest is 100% the BEST chest in-game until next raid is out who knows when, u won't need chest again, u can run onyxia on alts for fun as much as u want
compare it to current system, the BiS gear is TF, chance u get it is 0.01%, u can spend raiding non stop until next tier drop and won't get it, u'll get the chest from ghunn but u won't be satisfied because ur mind knows ur gear isn't complete and u missing BiS, u either (mostly) log on alt only to pull ur hair out if it drops, or u stay on ur main f8cking bored until that chest drop who knows when, u CAN'T calculate when u can get BiS gear, the 'worst case scenario' is in the 1000 run, not 10 run, yes u'll get full epic gear, but for BiS ? u'll get one or none at all for ur gear, u'll always feel unsatisfied because ur brain knows u didn't finish/complete ur character
In vanilla u can tell by next raid out how many gear u can get prior, u can calculate it, since MoP+ u can't, the chance is so random (anything between 1st run up to 1000th) u can get the BiS chest, that RNG up to 11
As for why blizz is keeping it is simple, same reason as they keeping LFG, or X-realm, or pruning

azerite cant tf

[Liarparadox]

Yep, sounds like slot machine/gambling system to me. Can't wait for that next dopamine high.

Yep. This is exactly why it's never going away. Blizz knows damn well this system generates more money for them. Not a chance in hell its going away. Get used to it cause this game has moved into extreme layers of slot machine "rewards. Expect more layers every xpac and some bullshit "bonus" roll to give you the illusion you have "added chances" over the previous xpacs.

perhaps worst of all, so many people can't tell the different between this slot system and the older rng system. Gotta give blizz credit; they play on that addiction so damn well people will mindlessly defend them for it. I say this and i'm someone who has benefited a great deal with the slots; but can't enjoy it knowing what they are doing.

[sam86]

I think they just need to add a currency that you can use to manually Warforge and Titanforge a piece of gear.

better if they just delete it, but that is system i can support, hate it but support

The thing that really makes it weird for me is... they are one of the biggest gaming companies right? They have a lot of money right? They should have one of the best designers in the industry.. and all they seem to consider is RNG or... no RNG? Seriously? No other ideas? No other more complex complementary systems? They just go with the most lazy, simple and cheap way to get the results. Doesn't matter how people feel about it.

the answer is easy, check bobby kodick views on video games, the guy is Blizz ceo, and he flat out hate video gaming, when a journalist asked him what is his single wish, guess what he wished ? not money, not wealth, not women, not even ruling the world like a f8cking bond villain, his only wish is to remove fun from games, the journalist was stunned by that answer
Bobby Kodick - the ceo of blizzard - hate video games, he only works for money, and like that yahoo ceo b8tch who f8cked her company to ground and still earned sh8tload of money, he is the same, he has LOADS of comments about how he despise video game industry, and how he hate video games, seriously i never understood why ppl hate EA and ignore the guy that is nicknamed the guy who hates video games the most in world
what u expect a company is with a ceo like that ?

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azerite cant tf

i was giving example -.-, i don't even know if onyxia drop a chest in first place, i was talking about the concept
ok replace chest with weapon, is that cool now ?

[slickwilly]

just w8 for classic servers

Sounds dreadfully boring.

[Osmeric]

better if they just delete it, but that is system i can support, hate it but support

the answer is easy, check bobby kodick views on video games, the guy is Blizz ceo, and he flat out hate video gaming, when a journalist asked him what is his single wish, guess what he wished ? not money, not wealth, not women, not even ruling the world like a f8cking bond villain, his only wish is to remove fun from games, the journalist was stunned by that answer

He said he wanted to remove the fun from MAKING video games. That is, games should be designed to entertain the customers, not the developers.

[Beefkow]

gear/char progression has been the most diverse it has ever been but ok, cya

Explain.

Because I don't understand a lick of what you just said.

[huth]

That's the point of the system. Alternative paths to gear. As an aside, you may not be doing Mythic raids, but you are far from casual if you're doing M10+ or 2.4k arena. You're in what is effectively end tier content for 2 of the 3 possible gearing paths. And the fact that you're 382 shows those things are working exactly as intended.

And that's precisely what the people crying about tf don't like.

M+ doesn't take that much time. Neither does Arena. It's quite feasible for casuals. Raiding is not.

[Liarparadox]

Damn. The only thing keeping me in the game was the hope of them removing titanforging and lowering the drop rates to return to a more satisfying gear progression.

I personally don't mind warforging, like maybe 5 ilevels, or maybe just a gem slot (mostly because I like the flexibility of swapping out gems if i want). But ya, I hear ya. I like the old system more.

[shaunika123]

Then why every mythic 10+ that I do has 2 or 3 guys that are all almost full 390ilvl with sockets and shit. While I have only two 395 items after completing over 200 runs on 10+ dificulty?

Fuck titanforging. Stupid system that doesn't give a shit about time invested but sheer amount of luck. Fuckin dogshit that is.

because of confirmation bias.

also how does other people having better gear than you hurt you exactly?:P


dont get me wrong, i'm not the biggest fan of titanforging and would be totally fine with it being gone.
but it's pretty much harmless.

if you want to blame something for big gear discrepancys blame personal loot.

that's the actual problem, not TF.

[Echocho]

gear/char progression has been the most diverse it has ever been but ok, cya

LOL, good one

[Deleted]

I generally don't have too much of a problem with it because it only comes down to probability.
The piece a mythic raider gets has the same chance to roll higher then a lfr raider has, the only problem that has to be tweaked here is a cap because mythic items also have one (400 currently so only +15 is possible.)

However the general gear progression and welfare nhc/hc items and the amount you can get is in my eyes off the road.

For mythic gear invested players only have a few sources, the mythic raid, and most of us simply won't clear and farm it after 3-4 weeks, and the mythic+ cache.

If you compare that to the amount of sources a heroic, normal, or non raiding/m+ player can acquire gear from + how probability works it becomes kinda dumb.
Im not saying a heroic raider will on average have the gear of someone progressing in mythic, however he simply won't be that far away from it either since it is relatively easy for him to farm heroic level gear and get war/titanforges on him.

As example: i have an alt toon since week 3 that only has done the following: lfr, warfronts, weekly events, emissaries/worldquests, worldbosses with very little time played of course (aka i didn't grind warfronts or world quests).
This alt has an item level of 365ish.

That, is ridiculous.

There simply shouldn't be welfare worldbosses and events that give you flat out heroic level gear or even normal level gear, not because im jealous, but simply because this gear is an weekly participation trophy.

[Osmeric]

That, is ridiculous.

There simply shouldn't be welfare worldbosses and events that give you flat out heroic level gear or even normal level gear, not because im jealous, but simply because this gear is an weekly participation trophy.

Calling something "ridiculous" is not actually an argument. Nor is asserting "it simply shouldn't be". You haven't justified either statement.

[Deleted]

Calling something "ridiculous" is not actually an argument. Nor is asserting "it simply shouldn't be". You haven't justified either statement.

k, then i'll say it like this:
You should have to put some effort in for good gear, time but especially skill wise.

The stuff (warfront weekly/worldboss, events and normal worldbosses) that hands out 355/370 gear is a cakewalk and kind of breaks satisfying progression for me.

If i look at that alt and then at my mythic progressing toon and compare performance/itemlevel it doesn't feel right for the amount of effort i put in to be so close, that demotivates me a bit since i got other interesting but time consuming hobbies too.

[Osmeric]

k, then i'll say it like this:
You should have to put some effort in for good gear, time but especially skill wise.

This is just backing the argument up one step to another unsupported axiom, which is really just a personal opinion.

Let's cut to the chase and talk about how you might construct such an argument that wouldn't rest on such a vaporous foundation.

What you'd have to do is talk about the ultimate reason the game exists, and try to connect game design decisions to that reason.

Contrary to what you might think, the purpose of the game isn't to reward skill. That may be a mechanism in the game, but is not the ultimate reason the game is there.

Rather, the game exists to entertain large numbers of consumers, and to make as much money as it can off them.

Does titanforging do that? Arguably it does, or at least Blizzard has concluded it does.

[niil945]

M+ doesn't take that much time. Neither does Arena. It's quite feasible for casuals. Raiding is not.

How long a single M+ is versus the investment to clear Mythic raids is a false equivocation. The amount of loot you get for clearing a mythic raid far exceeds the rewards for farming M+. The end of dungeon rewards are 15 ilvl lower. The weekly chest is 5 ilvl lower unless it's azerite gear and then it's the same. Which is all changing next patch with the removal of azerite rewards and the addition of the currency purchase, which is still going to be more advantageous to mythic raiders by design. If you want to talk about time investment, don't talk about how one M+ run stacks up against Mythic raiding, talk about the total time invested to progress through the key levels and farm ilvl to get to the point where one can reliably and consistently clear M+. And then how much time they spend farming M+ 10's or higher to pray for tf to get comparable ilvl to what people are getting in Mythic raiding. The fact that it can be run repeatedly is the entire reason why the base loot ilvl is lower.

Regardless, time spent has no bearing on whether someone is a casual or not. What percent of the WoW population is running M+ 10's or higher on a weekly basis? My bet is it's more than Mythic raiding but still a vast minority of the playerbase. I'd be willing to bet it's sub 10% of all players. Which is not casual.

[sam86]

He said he wanted to remove the fun from MAKING video games. That is, games should be designed to entertain the customers, not the developers.

he said he wants to remove fun from video game industry, and if u read his quotes what about his 1502 other quote like how he wants to increase gaming prices and how he consider games stupid and easy or want to be scammed and how he doesn't play video games and doesn't want his grandchildren to play them among the few that come to my mind now ?

[Osmeric]

he said he wants to remove fun from video game industry,

Right -- from the people who work in the game industry.

and if u read his quotes what about his 1502 other quote like how he wants to increase gaming prices and how he consider games stupid and easy or want to be scammed and how he doesn't play video games and doesn't want his grandchildren to play them among the few that come to my mind now ?

Of course he wants to increase prices. This is not evil, this is business. Businessmen don't set prices because they're nice people; they set prices to maximize profit. And in a competitive industry, consumers ruthlessly play businesses against each other to get this profit-maximizing price down.