I hate Sylvanas. She's overrated dull Character.

[McCrazy]

I never liked her. Maybe because I'm a woman? I don't understand the hype around her, but I don't play any Undead character, so maybe that's it. I understand she had some hard times in her (un-)life, but others have that too and don't go crazy about it. Probably some ex-Elf-issue. *shrug*

Hopefully, somehow the story around her is going somewhere interesting. If not, it's just a waste of my time.

[Almatari]

Also, why does Sylvanas get to still have a taut, svelte little elf body? The valkyr are the most ridiculous plot device to prop her up. Like not only do they give her regular 1-ups but they apparently are her own personal plastic surgeons Wtf. I could actually tolerate Sylvanas' BS if she was literally a rotting skeleton with her pointy ears completely melted away, flesh dangling off her skull, and chest sagging to her hip bones.
Lol, I'm curious where people's loyalty would be then.

[Super Dickmann]

There's no character that generates as much cubic tons of asspain as Sylvanas. When she gets Garrosh'd in a few patches it'll be a tragedy. Though the only point I'll quibble with is that she's not a Mary Sue, given that unlike her golden teenage counterpart, she's suffered setbacks often and has to wrangle the dumbasses around her constantly to get a modicum of her goals done.

[karumayu]

I feel that the writers are given unfair flak for portrayal of Sylvanas. Forsaken and Sylvanas had done shitty stuff since launch of WoW (Experiments with plague, lobotomizing prisoners, and many other stuff). Even now when her actions are pretty much bleak and in-line with her portrayal so far, it is her fans that refuse to see what she truly is and goes on apologetic rants. When Afrasiabi mentions that she was aware of Wrathgate, he was somehow blasted with not knowing the lore, but for many non-fans of Sylvanas, it was entirely within her character.

[canii]

I like her. I think it's because I'm female. My gender is usually the one factor that specifies who I like and who's going to be excluded *shrug* Or am I wrong?

Sorry, didn't mean to come off salty, it's an EU thing *shrug*

Edit: typos *sigh*

[Nnyco]

Dunno how sylvanas is your main concern when the entire alliance faction is dull.

[Kaleredar]

There's no character that generates as much cubic tons of asspain as Sylvanas. When she gets Garrosh'd in a few patches it'll be a tragedy. Though the only point I'll quibble with is that she's not a Mary Sue, given that unlike her golden teenage counterpart, she's suffered setbacks often and has to wrangle the dumbasses around her constantly to get a modicum of her goals done.

She's never put off of her goals, though.

Goal to cureate a new plague? Successful, despite two guys working right under her nose kicking her out of her own city.

Goal to invade gilneas? Successful, despite her army being obliterated and having her ass personally whooped by dozens of peasants.

Goal to hold silverpine against the worgen? Successful, despite DYING. (again, courtesy of someone working right under her nose)

Goal to possess Andorhal? Successful, despite the Alliance roundly sacking her forces.

And then let's not forget her basically betraying Odyn's trust by making a deal with Helya and then having the horde suffer no consequences for her actions... in fact, the entire plot point is completely dropped and forgotten about.


She never learns from her mistakes and never has to "suffer" them for long, if at all; Blizzard just writes her an out. The very DEFINITION of a "Mary Sue."

- - - Updated - - -

Dunno how sylvanas is your main concern when the entire alliance faction is dull.

Because the Alliance have ostensible goals besides "be edgy."

[Kadarne]

we might also need a sylvanas megathread XD

Judging by the amount of steamy hatred she's getting, it would span for tens of thousands of pages.

[Super Dickmann]

She's never put off of her goals, though.

Goal to cureate a new plague? Successful, despite two guys working right under her nose kicking her out of her own city.

Yes, she did create a new plague. The first time it was deployed (by someone else), she ended up with her kingdom under martial law and supervision by Horde forces and herself being the victim of a coup d'etat that serves as the reason Varian declares war. Being able to create a weapon isn't what you'd call a great success all on its own.

Goal to invade gilneas? Successful, despite her army being obliterated and having her ass personally whooped by dozens of peasants.

Gilneas is a pyrrhic victory. Sylvanas defeats the Gilneas in the sense that she blackmails Crowley into backing off, but from the last we know of Gilneas in BTS, it's uninhabited and neither side can make use of it because of the Blight. She failed in the objective set to her to take a harbor there. But the war itself is difficult for the Forsaken and they do not end up seizing the territroy they intended to take.

Goal to hold silverpine against the worgen?

See above.

Goal to possess Andorhal?

This isn't really much of a Mary Sue point, her enemies were literal refugees and farmers with no logistical support and she was throwing their own dead farmers at them by the score. And she still lost a val'kyr.

Sylvanas won fairly often, but she and the Forsaken struggled in the process and her decisions have the habit of biting her in the ass. Trusting Varimathras has her be open to a coup and puts her city under surveillance, trusting Godfrey, who really wasn't all that necessary to the plan, got her losing a third of her total val'kyr and trusting Galen cost her Arathi when he defected in the middle of the Legion war, precipitating Stromgarde later becoming an Alliance position. When she makes a mistake, she suffers consequences. In A Good War, she has to convince Saurfang to see things her way and purposefully misdirect Baine and send him and the druids elsewhere to not cause trouble for her plan.

A Mary Sue doesn't. A Mary Sue can say, make someone forgive the people who destroyed his entire home and killed his son overnight. Or have all his bones broken and only gain a sixth sense that alerts him when he's about to make a mistake. Or be right in every exchange with his fellow, much more experienced leaders in the few cases where they don't instantly turn to his point of view anyway. Even enemies would see the Mary Sue as being morally superior to them and lean on him to explain core elements of their culture to them and drive them to action. It's a good thing WoW doesn't have such a character though. A war with that kind of character would surely require the other side to be portrayed as a total mustache-twirling caricature.

[Eats Compost]

I like Sylvanas' archetype, but I hate her execution post-WC3. She's the perfect type of character to create tense moments within her own faction and to engage in a cat-and-mouse sort of affair, but what we got was a totally one-sided "Sylvanas does whatever she wants with nobody offering meaningful resistance" sort of affair, where we get a showcase of her personality but no sequence of events that would give it adequate narrative value. The closest things to exceptions were a slap on the wrist from Garrosh (which, notably, never affected the thing she was slapped on the wrist for) and the Legion situation with Genn where she didn't obtain the MacGuffin that was invented 10 minutes prior for the express purpose of her failing to get the MacGuffin.

I like her implementation in BfA a lot more (despite how absurdly contrived the "make her warchief" idea was as a launching point) because there is real tension for once, because proportional blowback for her actions is on the table. This arc's probably going to end with her getting kicked out of the Horde at a bare minimum, sure, but it's worth it just to have one Sylvanas-heavy story that actually plays to her strengths as a part of the narrative, as opposed to a character that just shows up occasionally to remind us of how edgy, pained or ulterior motive-y they are.

[Kaleredar]

Yes, she did create a new plague. The first time it was deployed (by someone else), she ended up with her kingdom under martial law and supervision by Horde forces and herself being the victim of a coup d'etat that serves as the reason Varian declares war. Being able to create a weapon isn't what you'd call a great success all on its own.

It was her goal. She got her goal.

None of that other stuff ended up mattering. At all.

Gilneas is a pyrrhic victory. Sylvanas defeats the Gilneas in the sense that she blackmails Crowley into backing off, but from the last we know of Gilneas in BTS, it's uninhabited and neither side can make use of it because of the Blight. She failed in the objective set to her to take a harbor there. But the war itself is difficult for the Forsaken and they do not end up seizing the territroy they intended to take.

You never see that result in-game.

See above.

They have full control of silverpine in-game.

This isn't really much of a Mary Sue point, her enemies were literal refugees and farmers with no logistical support and she was throwing their own dead farmers at them by the score.

The alliance showed up.

And she still lost a val'kyr.

Which has gone on to mean... absolutely nothing.

Sylvanas won fairly often, but she and the Forsaken struggled in the process and her decisions have the habit of biting her in the ass. Trusting Varimathras has her be open to a coup and puts her city under surveillance,

Which has, in the long term, meant nothing.

trusting Godfrey, who really wasn't all that necessary to the plan, got her losing a third of her total val'kyr

Again, meaning nothing.

"Losing her Val'kyr" has never been shown to influence her actions in any way, shape, or form. It's never even mentioned beyond that. The val'kry do not carry any weight in the story, so losing them is equally meaningless.

and trusting Galen cost her Arathi when he defected in the middle of the Legion war, precipitating Stromgarde later becoming an Alliance position.

If anything the horde's clout in Arathi highlands has grown since then. They didn't have a bigass fortress there before.

When she makes a mistake, she suffers consequences. In A Good War, she has to convince Saurfang to see things her way and purposefully misdirect Baine and send him and the druids elsewhere to not cause trouble for her plan.

And how has that affected her now?

Is the horde war machine being shown as "weakened?" No? Not at all? Beyond Saurfang, are any horde standing up to her? No? Not at all?

And, like I said. Her betraying Odyn and using the horde to do so? Never dealt with again. No ramifications in any way, shape or form.

A Mary Sue doesn't. A Mary Sue can say, make someone forgive the people who destroyed his entire home and killed his son overnight. Or have all his bones broken and only gain a sixth sense that alerts him when he's about to make a mistake. Or be right in every exchange with his fellow, much more experienced leaders in the few cases where they don't instantly turn to his point of view anyway. It's a good thing WoW doesn't have such a character though. A war with that kind of character would sure require the other side to be portrayed as a total caricature.

Anduin actually lost things. His father, for one.

And I'll say that being quashed by a bell is superseded in stupidity by DYING THREE TIMES.

Anduin isn't just some ball of angst. He actually doubts himself, has genuine desires and goals other than being an angsty bitch, and you SEE the effect of his actions. You know, like a real person. Instead of an angsty caricature maniacally tinting her fingers.



Honestly I'd say Sylvanas is... probably the least interesting lore character in WoW. She has no depth to her personality, never shows a minute of introspection, and her emotions encapsulate being pissed at not getting her way or being a smarmy asshole.

And that's been her character the entirety of WoW.

[McNeil]

Lets be completely honest here for a second. People only like her because she's a woman, if she was a man than no one would care for ''him'' where he would be seen as just some other archer.

[Verdugo]

Lets be completely honest here for a second. People only like her because she's a woman, if she was a man than no one would care for ''him'' where he would be seen as just some other archer.

What makes you think that and why doesnt it apply to every female alliance character.

[Super Dickmann]

"Losing her Val'kyr" has never been shown to influence her actions in any way, shape, or form. It's never even mentioned beyond that. The val'kry do not carry any weight in the story, so losing them is equally meaningless.

It's a resurrection counter that we've been introduced by Edge of Night. The fact that you seriously claim that Sylvanas overcoming a laughable army in Andorhal with access to the weapons and tools that she does makes her a Mary Sue speaks volumes all on its own. As for Silverpine, of course not, it was her own territory before hand as well. The lack of updates to Gilneas doesn't change its lore status as abandoned or the end of the questline which clearly shows you that she had to resort to blackmailing Crowley to get her way after suffering setbacks throughout the zone. The Horde had all of Arathi by the end of Cata in all but name, 'til Galen broke off. Now it's a contested area because she delegated ruling to Galen.

Also, Sylvanas never betrayed Odyn because she had no ties to Odyn to speak of to betray. Odyn himself doesn't give one fuck which is perfectly in character for the guy who was willing to give one of the Pillars to Skovald if he could beat you up, the world be damned and practices the same thing she does with a different aesthetic. As for opposition, she got away with Teldrassil only to be done in by raising one dude, so that really doesn't work out in her favour. As for the Horde being weakened, yeah, both Alliance and Horde endings in 8.1 mention that the Horde is the losing faction.

Anduin actually lost things. His father, for one.

Wow, his father got a heroic death that Anduin had no part in whatsoever and feels bad about that doesn't change his overall mentality one bit nor causes him to wrestle with the difficulties of leadership because everyone else immediately trusts and follows him. Sylvanas' first two deaths were major character turning points, Anduin having the bell dropped on him gave him superpowers and changed him not a whit in any other way. Anduin isn't a ball of angst, he's perfection incarnate, a character truly immunized against all failure and loss, loved by everyone he meets who doesn't become cartoonishly evil instead, never opposed even by people who've been through and suffered far more than he has. Even current Sylvanas is closer to an actual person than he is, because at least an actual person fails or is questioned by others when he fucks up.

[mysticx]

The biggest problem with Sylvanas is that her story pretty much finished at the end of Wrath, when Arthas died, Sylvanas just... was there (Well, she bumped herself off, but the val’kyr brought her back), her only remaining goal being “Delay dying because i’ll go to WoW-hell for the stuff i did”, and that’s not a very interesting goal in itself.

This wouldn’t be a big issue if she was just the leader of the Forsaken (Half the Alliance leaders just “are there” as well), now she leads the Horde, suddenly the purpose of all the races in it becomes “Protect Sylvanas from real and imagined threats”, so she drags the entire faction down with her pretty lame storyline...

[Life-Binder]

Sylvanas <3

[Darththeo]

Can people please use Mary Sue correctly? It isn't just a term for a bad character ... it is a specific kind of bad character. It is either a flawless much loved character in Universe or the flaws are not major. Essentially the character cannot fail. Sylvanas is hated by pretty much every Alliance leader, and is distrusted by Baine and Saurfang. She isn't, by definition, a Mary Sue.

[Tarba]

Title says it all.

Not only is Sylvanas a overrated dull Character but She is a Mary Sue that gets whatever she wants with no consequences, She has no mortal code of respecting the very Faction she leads, She doesn't care about her Family or People, and is a selfish entitled idiot that I hope she gets killed so that Horde can go back to its old roots. The Real Roots of the Horde. Not this Fan Service Character that gets all the spotlight while the rest of the horde ether doesn't the get the spotlight or just standing in the background doing nothing.

Sooner we kill Banshee Sue the better WoW can go back to its old roots of having a Great Horde Faction again.

The real roots of the horde?
Like killing baby draeney and storming Stormwind? Or fighting and killing each others for honor (betrayal in orcish) or any other reason?
Or is it, getting butchered and deposseded of their lands by centaurs or humans and running away?
Or maybe it is starting a worldwar like Thrall did?

Personnaly I root for the forsaken. At least they are not complete hypocrites.

[Pheraz]

Dunno how sylvanas is your main concern when the entire alliance faction is dull.

Yeahhh right.

If you said human okay... but the rest? Only because the alliance races aren't living in stone age tends and our characters do not look ugly alliance is dull. When will this ever stop?
Ugly != cool
Ugly != interesting
Ugly != special

[naeblis495]

The real roots of the horde?
Like killing baby draeney and storming Stormwind? Or fighting and killing each others for honor (betrayal in orcish) or any other reason?
Or is it, getting butchered and deposseded of their lands by centaurs or humans and running away?
Or maybe it is starting a worldwar like Thrall did?

Personnaly I root for the forsaken. At least they are not complete hypocrites.

this guy get it