Opinions on Bloodtalons

[Deleted]

Do you love it or hate it? And whatever it is, why?
I haven't been a druid for too long, so please excuse me beating this probably dead horse once more.
People have been commenting negatively on BT, while I think its one of the neater things gameplay-wise. It offers additional complexity by elaborating on an already existing system (the feral strikes insta-cast, w/e that's called). That's a design choice I'd appreciate in more classes.

[-aiko-]

I like it. It's a small thing but it adds complexity to the spec. There is a noticeable difference between a Feral using BT properly and one who is not.

I also think it's very friendly to the Druid theme, using 'cross-spec' spells for utility. It's one of the reasons I enjoy Lunar Inspiration as well and would love to see it go baseline one day.

[Unholyground]

It's one of the reasons I enjoy Lunar Inspiration as well and would love to see it go baseline one day.

Guardian have it baseline and can buff it with galactic guardian <3.

[Nalorakk]

Hate it.

I would much rather have it consume a different proc (even if it's just a new Bloodtalons castable ability that activates after using a finishing move or out of combat) that isn't PS because limiting your utility in a roundabout way of dealing damage feels like crap.

I might consider it then, but I prefer the rotation without BT. It does add complexity, but it doesn't feel like 'good' complexity to me. I'd rather get a new damaging button that weaves in between Shreds with a CD that needs to be managed well.

Feral is a really engaging spec to play when you have a good grasp of energy mechanics and BT doesn't interact with Feral's resources in an interesting way. I'd rather get a cooler talent that adds more active complexity instead of having to give up on PS.

[xintoc]

It fits the overall theme of surviving while your target bleeds out, but I wish it had some quality of life change like "gain 1 stack of Bloodtalons when you enter Prowl". Forgetting to cast regrowth before fight sometimes reminds me why some other classes are easier to play.

Edit: I guess I don't hate it, but messing it up is as awkward as capping combo points and not using a finisher

[Vilendor]

Hate it

a) healing to do damage is just stupid and doesn't fit into my concept and fantasy of the class
b) it's an outdated mechanic. Back around maybe WtLK (can't remember) Blizz removed every similar "buff your attack" mechanic from every class because they said its not fun and doesn't make sense... then they added it back a few expansions later but only for druids
c) it's the top talent since 7 years
d) boooooooring. No, it doesn't require skill, only muscle memory when to use it. Takes like a week to master it
e) there is no alternative if you raid endgame mythic and min-maxing is a thing for you
f) makes the rotation "lumpy"

I don't want it to be removed, i totally understand those who like it. I also liked it... for 3-4 years... after 7 years this is just madness. Keep it, but stop overtuning and forcing it on everyone.

[Arawrabearialis]

Always hated it. Forcing a dps spec to heal to do damage is just silly, and Feral is the absolute only spec in the game that does this. Hybridity was when you could pop out of form, cast Tranquility to help your healers patch the raid and/or go bear to pick up a loose mob. Forcing a heal into your rotation that often times is simply overhealing does not bring back the feeling of being a hybrid, it simply adds complexity for the sake of complexity. I know there's a lot of people who enjoy it, but it really should not be the top dps talent.

[Volitar]

I hate it. Feral use to be a bleed oriented spec just fine without this cancer ass mechanic that eithers leaves them over buffed or usually sub par.

When they did the 7.3 rework I jumped at the chance to play Feral because I knew that for at least 1 patch I would be able to use fun talents and not be a energy starved combo point starved shit spec.


Also what @Arawrabearialis said is true. Forcing you to use a heal in your rotation with no wiggle room as to when you cast it hardly makes me feel like a hybrid. The button could literally do nothing and have a GCD and feel the same for the player.

[Whitepaw]

I hate it. And I'll give you an updated argument as to why.

Yesterday, I was in LFR to kill G'huun. That's hard on LFR, because most people have no clue to this fight. I should add that I play with MoC, not BT.

We survive with most alive to phase 2. I'm starting to think "This is fine!". Then we reach phase 3.

In phase 3, you have to avoid his fears and all the AoE shit. As a Feral, I used a combination of heals, movement, bear form and SI to survive. At one point, I tanked the boss. We were three players standing from 5% to boss killed. We were less than ten for most of phase 3. I survived because I used my PS procs to heal myself when needed. Not to maximise my does with BT.

See, this is what they don't tell you about PS procs and BT: BT is good at maximising DPS on known fights. Mostly when you farm bosses and want to get a high ranking on your logs. And that makes it a shitty talent in my opinion.

World of Warcraft is about fighting stuff. When you fight stuff, you run risks and so you need to use talents which allows you to react to threats and keep fighting. You need flexibility.

BT is the direct opposite to this. It forces you to follow a rigid use of abilities to maximise DPS. Instead of World of Warcraft, you end up in World of Logcraft. And that sucks.

Yesterday, I ended up being one of the three still standing - the only DPS spec left. I was also the highest damage dealer on the boss. I did so because I am awesome at playing this spec. I have done this repeatedly since Molten Core back in 2005 - in every single expansion. I fight to the death. I don't fight for some log on a webpage.

Forcing a heal into a DPS sequence is shitty game design. And the only reason some people like it is because it allowed Feral to be totally OP on single target damage back in MoP.

But those days are long gone, and the devs will never allow us to be in that position again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blightrose]

I hate it with a passion, totally ruined my desire to play feral in BFA.
It feels incredibly clunky to me, to interrupt my flow to use a heal in the middle of it all.

[Malmmoc]

I mained feral for a long, long time. When Blood Talons was introduced, I practiced it and got quite good at using it, but I found it so awkward, inconvenient, and tedious to use that I have never mained feral again since. I would absolutely love for that talent to be deleted, because as long as it is in a row they seem to feel obligated to make it the strongest... partly because of how much of a pita it is, and partly because the "voices of the community", theorycrafters and guide writers push for it. I suspect it makes them feel good to play the hard spec, but honestly it isn't hard, it's just shitty. Personally I don't want it modified to use some other proc, I just want it gone entirely.

[exochaft]

The part that always irks me is having to use a defensive/utility spell not for defensive/utility purposes, similar to how Lively Spirits azerite trait is sizing up for Moonkins. Yes, it's powerful, and I'll use it because it's powerful... but that doesn't mean I like doing it that way. I like playing optimal in all aspects, and BT forces me to play optimally in either damage or defensive/utility, but not both.

[Rockford]

Always hated it with a passion...
It's just not enjoyable, throws in a frequent maintenance buff which is on GCD while also interfering with utility for the sake of timing this buff, that brings an inconvenience/clunk to the spec.

It's powerful, not particularly difficult, but I'll not use it as is horrible design!

Also worth mentioning that if BT is the highest output option, the remaining talents suffer (despite some claiming it's a tool). Especially when Bloodtalons buff is further increased through the performance of other talents. While this is a common occurrence in specs, the division of players and the nature of the talent cause very large issues.

Especially in the case of it being championed by those in the "community", with no consideration in its impact to other players who may not enjoy the playstyle!

[Deleted]

Oof. I expected a more varied response. In any case, it is irksome to weave in a utility spell for the seemingly wrong occasion.
Therefore your enjoyment of BT might also depend on whatever game mode you're playing. I.e. on BGs/Arenas, a heal will never go to waste. And while the rigidity can be inconvenient when you need to root asap, the reintroduction of cyclone and consequent removal of Hardened Roots will lessen the impact. Plus, you can just use moonfire to not waste BT.

It still stands though, and I agree, it can feel clunky. Coming from clunkier specs, I do not mind. BT is still enjoyable for its positive aspects.

Hey, at least its not mages' Rune of Power, right? :'D Lets see which of those two stays in the game longest!

[Rockford]

Hey, at least its not mages' Rune of Power, right?

Closer comparison would be Warlock's Soul Effigy.
Very powerful, and taken often because it was powerful.
It was removed because it was "not working out".

Quoting Seph on it's removal:

We hear you all on Soul Effigy. We’re going to remove it in the next PTR patch. It’s concerning when the community sentiment towards a talent isn’t that it’s overpowered or underpowered, but that everyone is terrified they’re going to have to play that way if it becomes strong.

[Tradu]

I hate it. Feral use to be a bleed oriented spec just fine without this cancer ass mechanic that eithers leaves them over buffed or usually sub par.

When they did the 7.3 rework I jumped at the chance to play Feral because I knew that for at least 1 patch I would be able to use fun talents and not be a energy starved combo point starved shit spec.


Also what @Arawrabearialis said is true. Forcing you to use a heal in your rotation with no wiggle room as to when you cast it hardly makes me feel like a hybrid. The button could literally do nothing and have a GCD and feel the same for the player.

BT is not what moved Feral away from a bleed spec and more towards braindamaged Shred/FB spam. BT also is not the reason for Blizzard not tuning Feral properly. And finally, if you think you're energy starved, you're playing wrong and/or fundamentally misunderstand energy as a mechanic.

- - - Updated - - -

I hate it. And I'll give you an updated argument as to why.

Yesterday, I was in LFR to kill G'huun. That's hard on LFR, because most people have no clue to this fight. I should add that I play with MoC, not BT.

We survive with most alive to phase 2. I'm starting to think "This is fine!". Then we reach phase 3.

In phase 3, you have to avoid his fears and all the AoE shit. As a Feral, I used a combination of heals, movement, bear form and SI to survive. At one point, I tanked the boss. We were three players standing from 5% to boss killed. We were less than ten for most of phase 3. I survived because I used my PS procs to heal myself when needed. Not to maximise my does with BT.

See, this is what they don't tell you about PS procs and BT: BT is good at maximising DPS on known fights. Mostly when you farm bosses and want to get a high ranking on your logs. And that makes it a shitty talent in my opinion.

World of Warcraft is about fighting stuff. When you fight stuff, you run risks and so you need to use talents which allows you to react to threats and keep fighting. You need flexibility.

BT is the direct opposite to this. It forces you to follow a rigid use of abilities to maximise DPS. Instead of World of Warcraft, you end up in World of Logcraft. And that sucks.

Yesterday, I ended up being one of the three still standing - the only DPS spec left. I was also the highest damage dealer on the boss. I did so because I am awesome at playing this spec. I have done this repeatedly since Molten Core back in 2005 - in every single expansion. I fight to the death. I don't fight for some log on a webpage.

Forcing a heal into a DPS sequence is shitty game design. And the only reason some people like it is because it allowed Feral to be totally OP on single target damage back in MoP.

But those days are long gone, and the devs will never allow us to be in that position again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you need to be on farm to know how to use BT on a fight, that's a problem with you as a player, not the design of the talent. And there has always been a fairly rigid way of using abilities to maximize DPS, and always will be. You playing differently just means you're wrong, not "awesome".

- - - Updated - - -

The part that always irks me is having to use a defensive/utility spell not for defensive/utility purposes, similar to how Lively Spirits azerite trait is sizing up for Moonkins. Yes, it's powerful, and I'll use it because it's powerful... but that doesn't mean I like doing it that way. I like playing optimal in all aspects, and BT forces me to play optimally in either damage or defensive/utility, but not both.

That makes absolutely no sense. BT changes what optimal defensive/utility play looks like, that's all, it doesn't prevent you from playing optimally.

- - - Updated - - -

Always hated it with a passion...
It's just not enjoyable, throws in a frequent maintenance buff which is on GCD while also interfering with utility for the sake of timing this buff, that brings an inconvenience/clunk to the spec.

It's powerful, not particularly difficult, but I'll not use it as is horrible design!

Also worth mentioning that if BT is the highest output option, the remaining talents suffer (despite some claiming it's a tool). Especially when Bloodtalons buff is further increased through the performance of other talents. While this is a common occurrence in specs, the division of players and the nature of the talent cause very large issues.

Especially in the case of it being championed by those in the "community", with no consideration in its impact to other players who may not enjoy the playstyle!

Maybe after 6+ years of BT being a core part of the spec with few exceptions(like the abortion that was Antorus Feral), people should get that it's here to stay and just play another spec if they hate it so much. Talents like SbT, and to some extent MoC and even SotF, are infinitely worse than BT in terms of design.

[Rockford]

And here's one of those "community members" of which I spoke of that encourage such a design without considering that players may just not like it.

Maybe after 6+ years of BT being a core part of the spec with few exceptions(like the abortion that was Antorus Feral), people should get that it's here to stay and just play another spec if they hate it so much. Talents like SbT, and to some extent MoC and even SotF, are infinitely worse than BT in terms of design.

So Mr Tradu, instead of attacking other player's opinions (of which the OP was specifically asking for), how about you tell us why you like the existence of Bloodtalons instead of telling others to suck it up and reroll like a toxic little troll...

[VladimirM]

Bloodtalons are just there to complicate the spec. Like with Lifetap talent for warlocks. Needless complication.
just my 2 cents

[Tradu]

And here's one of those "community members" of which I spoke of that encourage such a design without considering that players may just not like it.
So Mr Tradu, instead of attacking other player's opinions (of which the OP was specifically asking for), how about you tell us why you like the existence of Bloodtalons instead of telling others to suck it up and reroll like a toxic little troll...

Nothing toxic about it at all, that's the solution to not liking the spec you're playing, especially one like Feral that has changed very little fundamentally in the past decade.
And sure, here's some reasons I like BT.
It adds a minor amount of complexity to the spec, by making you choose what to spend the charges on. In most cases, you'll use one on your finisher and the other on Rake on singletarget, but once you add multiple targets, that decision changes depending on how many targets there are. It added more when there were more other snapshots around, because there were more variables to consider when spending your BT charges.
It adds a major amount of complexity to using PS properly for healing(which very few people actually bother with, which is funny considering the half of you not complaining about having to press another button for DPS are complaining that you can't use PS for healing when specced into BT), because it narrows the window in which you need to cast it, meaning you need to be more aware of who's taking damage.
It enhances the bleed focus of the spec, which is and should be the core focus of the spec.

Also pretty funny that you're trying to discredit me by implying I'm not part of the "real" Feral community, considering I've been active(to varying degrees, at least in public channels) in the Feral Discord since its inception as well as this forum(at least in Cata and again in Legion), even during times where I've not actively played the spec(like right now, for a variety of reasons)

[Rockford]

Nothing toxic about it at all, that's the solution to not liking the spec you're playing, especially one like Feral that has changed very little fundamentally in the past decade.

Well, in your immediate post above, you gave a good opinion on why you prefer Bloodtalons.
As did other people in which the OP is specifically asking for opinions.

But you started off attacking the opinion of other posters, as if their thoughts on the matter are less than yours.
This happens a lot coming from you. They have opinions which they've clearly stated, as have you.
Who are you to state that they dislike a talent for the wrong reasons!!!
Their opinions are their own, as are yours.

Of which, you've just stained your own opinion by the manner you've presented it and yourself, good job!!!