[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Rogalicus]

I mean that gets to the core of the issue.

You can have a Blue Mage, or you can have a generic job named Blue Mage.

They could have just built a generic class and attached monster ability names to it, with some job quest handwaving for how you learn them.

They chose instead to actually implement a huge list of learnable abilities, and acknowledged there's no way in hell to balance it, so they didn't try.

There's already huge list of learnable abilities in Pyros and current BLU will be just as useless for overall gameplay.

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I don't doubt that they could have, I just feel that for them to get it into a normal group format they'd have to balance it like they do the rest, and doing that would mean they'd have to control which spells they could learn, limit the number of spells, and it wouldn't REALLY be Blue Mage, just a FFXIV esque job with Blue Mage flavor.

Spells are limited anyway (you can choose only 24) and they could've made core abilities learnable by job quests and others by current system, while also having something like tier system based on strength of spell, where the most powerful spells would cost you entire MP bar and have really long CD, for example. That beats stupid solo mob grind with finite progression and absolutely nothing afterwards (not having DF and allowing unsynch for old content makes chances of level 50 capped character to get into any group very slim).

[Graeham]

BLU won't be 'useless'. It isn't going to appeal to everybody though it's already ready clear that it's meant to appeal to achievement hunters and those who recognise that FFXIV is as much a RPG as it is an MMO.

Not everything needs to be specifically designed to cater to the minority that is high end raiders. Some things can be added to the game just for fun.

[Katchii]

Spells are limited anyway (you can choose only 24) and they could've made core abilities learnable by job quests and others by current system, while also having something like tier system based on strength of spell, where the most powerful spells would cost you entire MP bar and have really long CD, for example. That beats stupid solo mob grind with finite progression and absolutely nothing afterwards (not having DF and allowing unsynch for old content makes chances of level 50 capped character to get into any group very slim).

There is a very profound difference between only having 24 abilities and being able to slot your choice of 24 abilities from a library of 49+ unique abilities. I don’t speak for everyone, but I don’t want a blue mage THEMED FFXIV job, I want Blue Mage. What they’re giving us is definitely Blue Mage. I agree, the limitations on it suck, but I would be surprised if they stuck for that long.

Also, I only saw them restrict Duty Finder roulettes, but they could still join party finder groups, which indicates they can do unsynced dungeons. Unless I missed something? Can you link where it says they can’t do unsynced dungeons?

[Rogalicus]

There is a very profound difference between only having 24 abilities and being able to slot your choice of 24 abilities from a library of 49+ unique abilities.

Yet again, they could've retained ability learning mechanic by giving you key abilities through job quests, while allowing you to learn everything else through current mechanic. That would've destroyed current argument about not having key abilities in DF. And also, if they cared about it so much, they wouldn't allow queueing without job stone.
Not being able to balance Level 5 Death or Bad Breath is stupid argument too, don't allow it to use on bosses or in PvP, problem solved.

Also, I only saw them restrict Duty Finder roulettes, but they could still join party finder groups, which indicates they can do unsynced dungeons. Unless I missed something? Can you link where it says they can’t do unsynced dungeons?

They can, just nobody would take level 50 character instead of level 70 (soon level 80).

[Graeham]

They can, just nobody would take level 50 character instead of level 70 (soon level 80).

Many will for the sake of shenanigans. Especially if there's weird and wonderful abilities with odd effects on bosses/trash.

[Quixef]

I tried my best to go through the story of this MMO but the patch content of all expansions are specifically designed to make you hate the game it seems.

Nothing is as bad as the patch content of the original I think though. But I was still shouting in frustration whenever one of those cutscenes entered at the beginning of a new zone (Over the mountains whatever bla bla THEY CAME) I mean the undertone is ironic (I think) but still all of it is designed for souls with much more free time than I.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I tried my best to go through the story of this MMO but the patch content of all expansions are specifically designed to make you hate the game it seems.

Nothing is as bad as the patch content of the original I think though. But I was still shouting in frustration whenever one of those cutscenes entered at the beginning of a new zone (Over the mountains whatever bla bla THEY CAME) I mean the undertone is ironic (I think) but still all of it is designed for souls with much more free time than I.

Yeah XIV is by no means built in the same way say WoW is. It's much more of a.... I guess you could call it a slog. And yeah the ARR patch content is some of the worst content in the game.

You kinda have to treat this game like a full RPG with an MMO layered on top of it, honestly.

[Daevelian]

So am i the only one really hoping the Gunblade job will be a melee DPS who shares gear with dragoon? Everyone keeps going on about how they MUST add a tank and healer this expansion but... why? There is no rule or law or whatever holding them to keeping such a balance, they could just as easily release a healer+dps or a tank+dps or dps+dps again.

And personally, i hope we get Gunblade DPS and Dancer Healer this time around.

The tanks are already hilariously unbalanced, adding a fourth to the mix is suicide when they cannot even get the current ones balanced. Healers however suffer far less from imbalance than tanks do, adding a fourth is nowhere near as suicidal. It also means they can stagger the DPS queues from here on by releasing all DPS alongside a tank or healer so the queues are not devoid of tanks or healers.

[Aruhen]

I hope they don't take too long to increase the level cap to say 70 or somewhere between 70-79. BLU looks like it'll probably be a really fun class to farm glamour from old instances. My dream though is they'll learn how to "balance" it by the time 6.0 comes out so they can remove the restrictions at least for random roulettes. Unlikely but a man can dream.

Another thing is I really hope there's some cool rewards from the BLU solo instance. For example make the Shadowbringers BLU relic be obtained from the solo challenges.

[Super Kami Dende]

While I echo your frustration (WTB Paladin DPS archetype, like Orlandu/Agrias), Dragoons in tactics most certainly wore the heaviest armor. They wore the same stuff Knights did and wore shields.

I always remember mine wearing Leather and Robes due to it having the best stats for Dragoons.

[dope_danny]

I think its been a pretty clear cut divide that the people upset about BLU by and large don't seem to know what a Blue Mage is and how skills like "lvl.5 Death" are going to be ridiculous horseshit in terms of balancing. Reading comments in articles it seems like the players who havent played anything pre 13 -which to be fair is fucking ten years ago now- think its just going to be black mage but you learn abilities from monsters that will be 'fireball, monster version' and the like.

My honest prediction? first week of the patch we are going to see a lot of "WTF I HIT LVL50 AND DIDNT LEARN ANYTHING FROM SHIT WTF????" and these folks will wait for slower, methodical players to drop a pastebin on reddit for spell locations and the like.

Unless dataminers ruin it of course but as consumers we have been so trained that "B-line to max level for the raid treadmill" is simply how modern mmos work that something like this which is clearly intended as a slower 'go to this area and farm spell X' is in no way designed with that mindset. So for the bunnyhopping "gogogogogogogogogo" crowd its essentially redundant. Do you blame that on players, the devs or the state the industry turned into after everything and their dog tried to be a wotlk clone?

[Katchii]

Yet again, they could've retained ability learning mechanic by giving you key abilities through job quests, while allowing you to learn everything else through current mechanic. That would've destroyed current argument about not having key abilities in DF. And also, if they cared about it so much, they wouldn't allow queueing without job stone.
Not being able to balance Level 5 Death or Bad Breath is stupid argument too, don't allow it to use on bosses or in PvP, problem solved.

They can, just nobody would take level 50 character instead of level 70 (soon level 80).

So you’re suggesting having a fully equipped normal FFXIV job, balanced appropriately that also has the ability to learn all the other BLU spells? I could get behind that.

Level 50 is also only a temporary level cap so, while I see your point, it’s not a long term design issue.

[StrawberryZebra]

For sure - but let me ask this. Which approach (true to BLU FFXI style or FFXIV bastardized) would provide engagement for more players? As much I as I dislike the FFXI BLU approach, it being available as a mini game to the entire playerbase hits a lot of marks, but how many of those works stick? How many pick it up and never touch it again? How "fun" or durable will the content be? Will there be a point where you like it so much you wish you could REALLY play it, but you can't because the devs decided limitations for you.

On the other side - if it touches less people via a bastardized FFXIV approach (fully fledged job and kit and usable in all content) only some may switch. However, I could argue that those that do would see a higher engagement quantification. So then the opportunity cost becomes a theoretical higher engagement across a narrow band, or a shallower engagement across a wider band.

Which approach do you like better and why?

I've never played FFIX, so I can't use the BLU there as a point of reference.

I don't think it's possible to have learning Blue Magic from monsters, a largely solo activity, and manage to somehow force that into group content. It can create a lot of friction between the group when your BLU wants to learn a spell from a mob or a boss, but the group just wants to clear the content. It creates a conflict of interests. If, as Squenix claim, BLU can break content by design, then forcing that on other people in a group setting is doing everyone a disservice.

It's got a lot of issues facing it as a traditional job too. Most notably it's wildly varied skillsets. Two BLU could have two totally different abilities learned and their results on a static fight could vary massively. Learning skills through Job Quests and such is one way around the problem, but that doesn't really deliver on what the BLU is all about. Merely boiling down the job into being a traditional spell caster that uses the same skills as mobs do isn't really anything special, it's a slight variation of the Black Mage.

I would much rather it be solo focused side content for those that want it. It's the best way to deliver on that BLU core class design and fantasy. The limitations are there to stop that fantasy spoiling the game for other people as much as they are to stop other people ruining things for the BLU. It may be a point of contention, but I do think MMO's should have engaging single player content outside of leveling. For most that tends to be grinding, pet battles and other side content. Offering single player exclusive content to a unique job is something that I can get behind, particularly if it has it's own progresion path associated with it.

[TriHard]

I have faith (though I may still be in denial) that they'll eventually turn it into a proper job down the line after it's been abandoned by most.
You know, it gives them time to make a watered down version of the Blu for group content and still being able to avoid the whole Ninja fiasco they had back in HW

[Wrecktangle]

Not everything needs to be specifically designed to cater to the minority that is high end raiders. Some things can be added to the game just for fun.

Just like they added LoV for fun? Chocobo Racing, Diadem? Eureka? It's not about raiders vs. not raiders, it's about practicality and their track record.

BLU as it stands is going to either A) require a ton of upkeep in content generation where you can use it, or B) left to rot once you learn all your abilities and are satisfied accomplishing whatever goals you wanted to do as BLU.

I'm just not sold that it's the best use of resources. I WOULD love to be proved wrong though.

I would think that they'd be able to come up with a balance of some kind, building a balanced group rotation/ performance based on a specific set of learned spells and make those spells a minimum queueing requirement alongside ilevel, while also allowing it to perform unhindered when not in the Duty Finder. That would be ideal.

I guess I'm just jaded. That faith is long gone for me. Stuff like Eureka solidified to me that they have no idea how to design durable scalable content that is at the core of the game, actually fun. They can't even balance the jobs with base ass templates, so how they're gonna balance something like BLU is almost out of the question IMO so I don't see how it transitions.

My dream though is they'll learn how to "balance" it by the time 6.0 comes out so they can remove the restrictions at least for random roulettes. Unlikely but a man can dream.

Heh Just like tank and healer balance Maybe 5.0 we'll finally see WAR properly balanced so PLD/DRK can shine. I'll be moderately sad if PLD's are shelved again due to DRK flagship expac.

I always remember mine wearing Leather and Robes due to it having the best stats for Dragoons.

You could sacrifice some defense for the less durable items that had strong offensive properties (given jump makes you invincible it makes sense), but they still default to the heaviest armor.

I think its been a pretty clear cut divide that the people upset about BLU by and large don't seem to know what a Blue Mage is and how skills like "lvl.5 Death" are going to be ridiculous horseshit in terms of balancing. Reading comments in articles it seems like the players who havent played anything pre 13 -which to be fair is fucking ten years ago now- think its just going to be black mage but you learn abilities from monsters that will be 'fireball, monster version' and the like.

I know exactly what a BLU is, I'm just not happy about it and I don't think you need to have every single skill to make BLU a cohesive, fun, and thematic experience. They've made countless concessions before, it seems strange to start now.

I've never played FFIX, so I can't use the BLU there as a point of reference.

I don't think it's possible to have learning Blue Magic from monsters, a largely solo activity, and manage to somehow force that into group content. It can create a lot of friction between the group when your BLU wants to learn a spell from a mob or a boss, but the group just wants to clear the content. It creates a conflict of interests. If, as Squenix claim, BLU can break content by design, then forcing that on other people in a group setting is doing everyone a disservice.

It's got a lot of issues facing it as a traditional job too. Most notably it's wildly varied skillsets. Two BLU could have two totally different abilities learned and their results on a static fight could vary massively. Learning skills through Job Quests and such is one way around the problem, but that doesn't really deliver on what the BLU is all about. Merely boiling down the job into being a traditional spell caster that uses the same skills as mobs do isn't really anything special, it's a slight variation of the Black Mage.

I would much rather it be solo focused side content for those that want it. It's the best way to deliver on that BLU core class design and fantasy. The limitations are there to stop that fantasy spoiling the game for other people as much as they are to stop other people ruining things for the BLU. It may be a point of contention, but I do think MMO's should have engaging single player content outside of leveling. For most that tends to be grinding, pet battles and other side content. Offering single player exclusive content to a unique job is something that I can get behind, particularly if it has it's own progresion path associated with it.

All good points, except I disagree that learning Blue Magic has to be group based. They could easily structure it in job quests either by learning multiple per quest (go hunt X Y and Z monster) learn 3 abilities, OR even restructure the job quest frequency for BLU alone.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I have faith (though I may still be in denial) that they'll eventually turn it into a proper job down the line after it's been abandoned by most.
You know, it gives them time to make a watered down version of the Blu for group content and still being able to avoid the whole Ninja fiasco they had back in HW

Eventually they probably will, maybe make it so some of the more insane moves (like Lv. 5 Death) are restricted so you can only use them outside of Duties/Carnivale. But that's probably not until 6.0 at the earliest.

[therealbowser]

If BLU is using current weapons (rods in this case) this probably means that we'll see this applied to other 'solo' classes. ... I'm not sure this is a good thing.

This is a disappointing way to introduce the class at any rate, but I admit I am still excited about it. I just hope that not all the new jobs will be the same way... but it probably will be. (By this I am primarily referring to solo, the weapons bit I don't care much about.)

I really hope we get some real classes too, ones viable and intended for parties, especially with them teasing gunblades and geomancer recently.

Either way, fun or not I almost certainly won't play BLU much as I almost exclusively play FFXIV for group content. In fact, FFXIV is rather lacking in solo content to begin with... unless this changes, what even truly is the benefit? And sure, it could change, but a huge and sudden focus on solo content over group content, frankly, would be disconcerting in and of itself....

I'm not sure why, but I feel a bit of foreshadowing with the Shadowbringers expansion, and not entirely the good plot-derived kind.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

If BLU is using current weapons (rods in this case) this probably means that we'll see this applied to other 'solo' classes. ... I'm not sure this is a good thing.

This is a disappointing way to introduce the class at any rate, but I admit I am still excited about it. I just hope that not all the new jobs will be the same way... but it probably will be. (By this I am primarily referring to solo, the weapons bit I don't care much about.)

I really hope we get some real classes too, ones viable and intended for parties, especially with them teasing gunblades and geomancer recently.

Either way, fun or not I almost certainly won't play BLU much as I almost exclusively play FFXIV for group content. In fact, FFXIV is rather lacking in solo content to begin with... unless this changes, what even truly is the benefit? And sure, it could change, but a huge and sudden focus on solo content over group content, frankly, would be disconcerting in and of itself....

I'm not sure why, but I feel a bit of foreshadowing with the Shadowbringers expansion, and not entirely the good plot-derived kind.

Are they confirmed to be using Rods? Seemed to me like that was either a Cane or a Wand with how he was handling it.

[dope_danny]

If BLU is using current weapons (rods in this case) this probably means that we'll see this applied to other 'solo' classes. ... I'm not sure this is a good thing.

This is a disappointing way to introduce the class at any rate, but I admit I am still excited about it. I just hope that not all the new jobs will be the same way... but it probably will be. (By this I am primarily referring to solo, the weapons bit I don't care much about.)

I really hope we get some real classes too, ones viable and intended for parties, especially with them teasing gunblades and geomancer recently.

Either way, fun or not I almost certainly won't play BLU much as I almost exclusively play FFXIV for group content. In fact, FFXIV is rather lacking in solo content to begin with... unless this changes, what even truly is the benefit? And sure, it could change, but a huge and sudden focus on solo content over group content, frankly, would be disconcerting in and of itself....

I'm not sure why, but I feel a bit of foreshadowing with the Shadowbringers expansion, and not entirely the good plot-derived kind.

I'll bet good gil we get a pvp only job in the future.

[Florena]

It's mostly that, much like what happened with the introduction of DRK, it will really make a pretty minimal dent in the actual population of tanks, it'll mostly just dilute the pool of existing tanks and DPS will probably try it for the fun of it, but won't seriously main it into endgame.

This is fine. Just because adding a new tank won't cause a big shift in the % of players that main tanks, doesn't mean adding new tanks is a waste or that they should never do it.

Do we need a new tank and healer every expansion? No. But it would be a mistake to just never add them again ever and just keep piling on dps after dps after dps and leaving the tank choices where they are.