All these difficulties... Right, or wrong?

[Pua]

I was thinking about this recently, given that I'm looking forward to the Classic development. Classic, and mainly The Burning Crusade, didn't have multiple difficulties in order to capture as many people as possible, irrespective of their achievement intent or general skill/ability. Classic, for example, had a series of five-man dungeons of a single difficulty, and multiple raids (which differed only in person size).

This is how we now look:

Leveling 5-man dungeons.
Level cap 5-man dungeons.
Heroic 5-man dungeons.
Mythic 5-man dungeons.
Mythic+ 5-man dungeons.

As far as raids are concerned, we're here:

Looking For Raid multiple-man difficulty.
Normal multiple-man difficulty.
Heroic multiple-man difficulty.
Mythic 20-man difficulty.

For design reasons, it's easy to work out why an additional seven difficulties for identical content has been put in; but that's not all. The achievement system is now ludicrously bloated, the profession skills have been gutted, quests have been turned into single-player easy completions and gearing has been expanded to a fundamentally broken extent. In order to expand this point, gear items that you pick up from Mythic dungeons are doubled in strength from those picked up from level cap, and it's a similar deal in the raid system. Hell, due to random enhancement, it could technically be more.

So the question is simple, really.

Do you think this is right?

Do you think there should be heaps of difficulties in order to 'encourage' more people to do certain content while others are degenerated, or should this be properly reviewed to make content completion an achievement, rather than entitlement?

[Osmeric]

If there aren't multiple difficulties, then the one that they choose has to cater to the most populated part of the player skill distribution. And that will be pretty easy.

The alternative, catering only to the top players, obviously will not work (and never worked, although churn concealed that for a time).

[Pua]

If there aren't multiple difficulties, then the one that they choose has to cater to the most populated part of the player skill distribution. And that will be pretty easy.

Or, a single instance can scale in difficulty. The first four bosses are 'normal', while the second four are 'Heroic'. Given the participation (or completion), there isn't much requirement for Mythic at all. My view, which could be wrong, is that it exists almost solely to retain long-term players that would otherwise depart.

Personally, I think it would be good if they departed.

[Osmeric]

Or, a single instance can scale in difficulty. The first four bosses are 'normal', while the second four are 'Heroic'. Given the participation (or completion), there isn't much requirement for Mythic at all.

That's obviously not going to work either.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

It's a cost VS use thing. If you make something the cornerstone of your patch cycle and your endgame you want more than 5% of the playerbase to use it.

[Pua]

That's obviously not going to work either.

You mean, other than the fact that it did work prior to the expansion of difficulties?

It's a cost VS use thing. If you make something the cornerstone of your patch cycle and your endgame you want more than 5% of the playerbase to use it.

That's a very good point - and, I reckon, absolutely true.

Hence many other systems have been gutted because of this approach.

[Echocho]

It's too late, they can't do anything about it at this point. Lowering the amount of loot we get by 90% and reintroducing single difficulties won't fly with the current playerbase.

Even if they make easier dungeons and harder dungeons aimed at different types of players and make them have to work over long periods of time for their rewards they won't accept it. They are entitled to complete all the content and be rewarded as often as possible for whatever activity they choose to do.

[Osmeric]

You mean, other than the fact that it did work prior to the expansion of difficulties?

Nope, it didn't work then either. The growing number of new players masked it, though. And some of those new players did not immediately recognize the game design was screwing them over. That naive new player population is gone now; players now can immediately recognize if they are being fed hardcore shit.

[MoanaLisa]

My view, which could be wrong, is that it exists almost solely to retain long-term players that would otherwise depart.

Personally, I think it would be good if they departed.

It's bad business. One of these days people need to realize that balancing business needs with game needs is a thing.

It would be interesting to view long-term players versus the skill and difficulty level they normally play at. It's probably lower than you imagine.

The problem with scaling up difficulty in an instance is that few are going to enjoy an instance they can't finish. Once the word gets around that less-skilled players won't be able to complete the instance they won't bother with it at all.

The most interesting mythology that infests the game and forums is that players need to play all difficulty levels. We've seen this for years with raid difficulties whereas it's quite clear that no one needs to do all of them and that most don't bother with but a couple. If Raid Finder ruins the raid for going further why do we not hear this about normal and heroic raids ruining mythic. We don't. Not as a rule. It's a false problem.

Regular players know what they are comfortable with. Those that aspire to higher have somewhere to go. Those that don't can see everything there is to see.

[Byleth]

I like the different levels of difficulty personally.

As a player, I go through phases where I'm more hardcore, and phases where I'm super casual. I like that no matter what phase I'm in I can participate in and see all the story.

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Questing should have difficullty levels as well, and give better rewards the higher difficulty you chose.

I could go for a more challenging open world.

Sadly, I don't think it'll come anytime soon. If hardcore offered better rewards, everyone would feel compelled to do it, and then the whining would start. Just look at the tidal wave of tears mobs scaling with gear caused. (Does anyone care anymore now that they're geared? No? Lol).

[Pua]

Nope, it didn't work then either. The growing number of new players masked it, though.

This sentence is effectively saying that you are right, and are happy ignoring the evidence that proves you are wrong.

Before the multiple difficulties were inserted, in a game built on achievement, the player number grew. And substantially.

Since the multiple difficulties were inserted, on a game built on entitlement, the player number has collapsed. And substantially.

"But that fact is just masking the reality! My opinion is correct! Screw reality!"

The standard of your commentary is typically much better than this.

It would be interesting to view long-term players versus the skill and difficulty level they normally play at. It's probably lower than you imagine.

It's not something I really imagine a volume at. It's practically impossible to know what part of the game keeps the higher percentages of players for longer times. There are reasons I suspect that guaranteed achievements, irrespective of effort or ability, have a very limited impact on impressive maintenance; but it's not something I can prove.

Ignoring facts that are inconvenient is something another poster is up to this evening.

[Boricha]

I think easy queue-able content breeds apathy towards the higher difficulty levels. I don't think it will ever go away though, so *shrug*.

[Pua]

I think easy queue-able content breeds apathy towards the higher difficulty levels. I don't think it will ever go away though, so *shrug*.

That's what Classic is going to do.

[Deleted]

Nope, it didn't work then either. The growing number of new players masked it, though. And some of those new players did not immediately recognize the game design was screwing them over. That naive new player population is gone now; players now can immediately recognize if they are being fed hardcore shit.

No it didnt. Vannila, TBC and WOTLk all retained its playebase. This **** about growing playerbase made up for losses is totaly made up and was never proven to be true by any data.

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I like the different levels of difficulty personally.

As a player, I go through phases where I'm more hardcore, and phases where I'm super casual. I like that no matter what phase I'm in I can participate in and see all the story.

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I could go for a more challenging open world.

Sadly, I don't think it'll come anytime soon. If hardcore offered better rewards, everyone would feel compelled to do it, and then the whining would start. Just look at the tidal wave of tears mobs scaling with gear caused. (Does anyone care anymore now that they're geared? No? Lol).

I dont think so that butchering entire raid content into difficulty levels is worth for few lines of text from npc. Raids barely have any story anyway. Entzire story is told outside of raids. Raids are there just to kill bosses nothng els. Story really isnt there.

[Soon-TM]

I'd love if we could go back to the progression model of Vanilla/BC, but that ship has sailed already and unfortunately, there is no turning back.

[MoanaLisa]

It's practically impossible to know what part of the game keeps the higher percentages of players for longer times. There are reasons I suspect that guaranteed achievements, irrespective of effort or ability, have a very limited impact on impressive maintenance; but it's not something I can prove.

Blizzard knows which I suspect is a useful piece of information for them. I'm sure they also know something about those that come back for expansions for a few months. That right there pays expenses plus some and seems to be of increasing importance for them.

I see you are all in for the fallacy that added difficulty levels are driving people away from the game and discounting everything else like the game aging, the market moving away from MMO's and subscription-based MMO's specifically. It's faulty reasoning. WoW has always had a very high churn. In the early days up to Wrath people signed up in greater numbers than they were leaving. Around Wrath that started to level off. Afterwards the evidence suggests that fewer people were starting up as new players and the graph line has tilted down ever since. Add the misjudgment at the start of Cataclysm that their players were generally desirous of a much harder game--they clearly weren't--and it's a more sensible explanation that trivialities like changing the difficulty schema for raids and dungeons.

New players are unlikely to view multiple difficulties in a game as some problem. Quite the opposite. Contrary to popular forum opinion most people signing up for a video game are not looking for a nerve-wracking repetitive night of failing to down a raid boss, being screamed at by guild mates or random people in a pickup group or even a very difficult experience that will require them to do research and better themselves as people by overcoming adversity. That's just stupid and always has been.

[Checkt]

Do you complain about RPG games having an easy-hard-diffcult-insane tier setting? No? Looks like you understand the reasoning then, and shouldn't complain about it in another (mmo)rpg

[Pua]

I see you are all in for the fallacy that added difficulty levels are driving people away from the game and discounting everything else like the game aging, the market moving away from MMO's and subscription-based MMO's specifically.

I haven't made a single one of those claims. But I know why you're suggesting otherwise:

"New players are unlikely to view multiple difficulties in a game as some problem. Quite the opposite".

There's absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, to suggest that this is true. I've never claimed that what you go on to describe is the solution, which means you're effectively creating an argument I've made to argue against directly from your imagination.

[Teri]

Money does the talking these days, they do everything to keep people playing longer.

Back in the Vanilla/TBC days people weren't talking about "but raids wouldn't be made if LFR didn't exist", now they are defending Blizzard's income?

Game is at no return, that way it was easier to release Classic instead.

And that has been a trend across many games or movies even, it's easier to Remake/Remaster then make a new game with "old" game design.

[Revamp Man]

To me there's only 1 dungeon difficulty and 2 raid difficulties
M+
Norm and heroic
Idk a single person that runs every single difficulty


Personally I prefer the ulduar system