[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Mayhem]

Something in your post is badly breaking the forum software, @Mayhem . Content is good though.

Yeah, on the other hand, I now know how to break the forum.

[Mekh]

Yeah, on the other hand, I now know how to break the forum.

Glad you fixed it, because you can bet your ass that guy would have used it as an excuse not to respond at all.

[Mayhem]

Glad you fixed it, because you can bet your ass that guy would have used it as an excuse not to respond at all.

I doubt he reads my post.

[Mekh]

I doubt he reads my post.

Of course he doesn't, but now he doesn't have an excuse.

[Kallisto]

Little things like gun control?

yes the little thing the far right tend to ignore where the Nazis loosened gun control that was put in place by the weirmar era.

Oh, and let's not forget little things like gun control and all the rest. Me, I want a small state, rock solid private property rights, strong gun ownership rights, don't believe in any kind of equality, and oppose the welfare state in general - so clearly I'm just like the guys who did the above .

Well gun ownership, not wanting equality to the point that undesirables will end up dead (the lack of welfare) does put you in good company with the Nazi groups.


Also in other news I saw this and thought it was funny.

[Muzjhath]

Nazis are left-wing.

So, Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor of Germany, was a rapid Socialist Liberal as well then?
Because he championed workers rights and a welfare state and such drivel To crack down on revolutionary fevour but let's disregard that fact

[Acidbaron]

Why are you guys arguing with teleros on this if he wants to believe this let him, if he wants to put himself on the same level as holocaust deniers let him.

All it does is further reduce any miniscule sense of credibility or intelligence he has.

[Slant]

Nazis are left-wing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

They're not. If anything, they defied the traditional left/right spectrum altogether. In all practicality, however, they are sorted into the far-right spectrum.

What I find more interesting, though... is that a dude accuses you of embracing far right ideologies, to which you reply "Nazis are left-wing". Jesus Christ, are you actually supporting Nazism openly? That really says all about you that needs to be said. You have a right to your opinion, and we have the right to treat your opinion like the piece of shit gutter shitfest it is.

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Why are you guys arguing with teleros on this if he wants to believe this let him, if he wants to put himself on the same level as holocaust deniers let him.

All it does is further reduce any miniscule sense of credibility or intelligence he has.

We'd all like to weigh down on the fact just how big the opposition to extremism of any kind is. It's important to let the lurkers know that this forum is not succumbing to extremism, even if it tolerates its presence.

[Santti]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Watch, he is going to counter with how the name has socialism in it, so it must be left-wing.

[Teleros]

Oh, a party program, well, as history shows, party programs are always truethful and honest.

So what, party programs never give you even a general idea of the direction the party wants to go in? Huh.

That's why they introduced real slavery?

Maybe I'm not aware, but that began after WW2 broke out, no? Just wondering if that had something to do with it :P .

Yeah, right, no german or foreign company ever profited from war during ww2. Except such no-names like Hugo Boss, Siemens, IBM, Volkswagen, Bayer ...

And in WW2 Hitler won and so was able to ach- oh no, wait a second, Hitler lost, so your argument is kind of pointless.

Also we're planing to implement a dictatorship practically giving everything to one person, you know, socialism!

"Real socialism has never been tried!"

And by division we're speaking of, between the owners and us.

"The owners and the state (which means us)" might be putting it better.

This is just authoritarian.

And socialistic. What are private property rights again?

Again, nothing here yells socialism.

Private property not ringing any bells?

Reads great, but was nothing but indoctrination in the end, you know, fun stuff like the Hitler Jugend and no one was talking about Women, obviously.

Not exactly right-wing though.

Ended in a Dictatorship and no leader sacrificed their life for any of the points above.

"Strong central power" is the key bit.

Little things like gun control?

I should've put it in quotes or something.

So apart from the first three points you want what the nazis ended up with.

The nazis at least had an ideological commitment to equality and the welfare state, even if their racial pseudo-science clashed with it (shocker, I know).

Stop scrolling down to the propaganda and maybe read what is written prior to the 25-point program

I'm not seeing much there that screams "right-wing" though .

Stop scrolling down to the propaganda and maybe read what is written prior to the 25-point program:

According to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, the 25-point program "remained the party's official statement of goals, though in later years many points were ignored."

See: WW2. It's hard to run a welfare state and the Wehrmacht simultaneously :P .

= = =

yes the little thing the far right tend to ignore where the Nazis loosened gun control that was put in place by the weirmar era.

But by how much? Not a lot frankly - permits were still required by and large, unless you belonged to one of several privileged classes.

not wanting equality to the point that undesirables will end up dead (the lack of welfare) does put you in good company with the Nazi groups.

Lol. Do please show me how humans are equal by any measure. Whether you're in the USA or the USSR, status, money and all sorts negate legal equality, and religions pretty much by default assume spiritual inequality, if only between believers and non-believers. Scientifically there are genetic differences between populations - in England you can tell if someone's ancestors are from Yorkshire or Cornwall or w/e through a DNA test, to give but one example. Etc etc etc.

Also in other news I saw this and thought it was funny.

= = =

So, Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor of Germany, was a rapid Socialist Liberal as well then?
Because he championed workers rights and a welfare state and such drivel

Frankly I know less about Bismarck than WW2 stuff, but from what I understand, he went the welfare state route in order to, as you put it, crack down on revolutionary fervour. He's been known as a master of realpolitik for a reason .

= = =

Why are you guys arguing with teleros on this if he wants to believe this let him

if he wants to put himself on the same level as holocaust deniers let him.

Never denied it. AFAIK it happened.

= = =

They're not. If anything, they defied the traditional left/right spectrum altogether.

They were on the left. I mentioned Jonah Goldberg's book earlier - go have a read if you want to understand (a) why this is the case, and (b) why maybe a Wikipedia full of left-wing ideologues isn't the most reliable source of whether Nazism is left- or right- wing.

What I find more interesting, though... is that a dude accuses you of embracing far right ideologies, to which you reply "Nazis are left-wing". Jesus Christ, are you actually supporting Nazism openly?

Nope, you misread it. If you want to call me far-right, that's fine, and I think reasonably accurate - I want a much smaller state than we have, and am big on... well let's just say socially conservative positions, that'll sum most of it up pretty accurately for now. Also like the God-Emperor, I think nationalism* is a good thing. From my POV though, if you call yourself a fascist, nazi, neo-nazi or similar, or rather if you subscribe to their ideas, you're on the left, whether you realise it or not.

*Because some people here won't understand this point, let me be clear: nationalism is not the same as imperialism. You can be a nationalist and decry the idea of conquering someone else's land etc. Heck, I think the gypsies and Jews in particular make a good case that it's possible to be a nationalist even if you lack a homeland altogether.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Are we going to ignore Teleros and his sealion inspired derailing of this thread? Or are we going to carry on pretending that it's worth talking to him?

[Teleros]

Are we going to ignore Teleros and his sealion inspired derailing of this thread? Or are we going to carry on pretending that it's worth talking to him?

What can I say - people keep defaming me :P .

[Mayhem]

@Teleros dude, you obviously can't connect the dots and treat each point on its own completely disregarding the fact that it was done by the same people. This is beyond stupid.

[Ivanstone]

See: WW2. It's hard to run a welfare state and the Wehrmacht simultaneously :P .

They didn't have to start WW2. They chose to start WW2. They had no interest in actually making a welfare state but wanted military expansion instead.
Tooze, Adam (2006). The Wages of Destruction: The Making and the Breaking of the Nazi Economy. New York: Viking. ISBN 978-0-670-03826-8.

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ho...ical_opponents
"German communists, socialists and trade unionists were among the earliest opponents of the Nazis*, and they were also among the first to be sent to concentration camps.**"
*http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10007332
**Wachsmann, Nikolaus (2015). Kl: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps. New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. ISBN 978-0-374-11825-9.

Furthermore, you should also consider a country's allies. For example, the Nazis were good friends with noted left-winger dictators Franco and Mussolini. They're totally left-wingers?!?!?!?

[Teleros]

They didn't have to start WW2. They chose to start WW2.

Technically Britain & France declared war on Germany, but anyway...

They had no interest in actually making a welfare state but wanted military expansion instead.

I think there's a difference between "no interest in X" and "Y takes priority over X".

[Kallisto]

Why are you guys arguing with teleros on this if he wants to believe this let him, if he wants to put himself on the same level as holocaust deniers let him.

All it does is further reduce any miniscule sense of credibility or intelligence he has.

Because it isn't arguing with him. It's making sure that people who might stumble on this thread and still are young not fall into his bullshit that has been happening with many youths in past 20 years falling into the far right mentality due to the far right not being countered.

[Slant]

Because it isn't arguing with him. It's making sure that people who might stumble on this thread and still are young not fall into his bullshit that has been happening with many youths in past 20 years falling into the far right mentality due to the far right not being countered.

What I find amusing is the one-dimensional thinking guys like him display... if it got "socialism" in it, it's left. Wha... our centre-right Government implemented social market economy back in the 50s, and they were anything but left.

[Ivanstone]

Technically Britain & France declared war on Germany, but anyway...


I think there's a difference between "no interest in X" and "Y takes priority over X".

Technically, Germany invaded Poland. And German ally Japan had already invaded China. And Germany had already sided with Franco in the Spanish Civil War. And Mussolini invaded Ethiopia. But let's blame the French and British for starting WW2.

I think there's also a difference between putting a word in your political party name, saying things to appease the masses and then doing what you originally wanted to do. In Nazi Germany's case they wanted military expansion and to kill those who they deemed undesirable: Jews, Slavs, Romani, Homosexuals and the Political Left.

[Edge-]

I think there's also a difference between putting a word in your political party name, saying things to appease the masses and then doing what you originally wanted to do.

You mean the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea aren't actually Democratic or Republics? You're shattering my world view ;__;

[Acidbaron]

Because it isn't arguing with him. It's making sure that people who might stumble on this thread and still are young not fall into his bullshit that has been happening with many youths in past 20 years falling into the far right mentality due to the far right not being countered.

While I find its intend noble, it should be on school and other forms of education to make sure of that but yes did recently figure out the lack of knowledge about the war and the atrocities is rather lacking between ages 15 and 30.

France and Eastern Europe were the biggest nation's guilty of that ignorance.

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What I find amusing is the one-dimensional thinking guys like him display... if it got "socialism" in it, it's left. Wha... our centre-right Government implemented social market economy back in the 50s, and they were anything but left.

Their entire ideology was based on preservation and consveration thus conservative thinking. At best the nationalisation of companies could be seen as left leaning politics but the intend was the expansion of the empire not the redistribution of wealth.

But yes such things are far too difficult for them to comphrend