Let the Alliance raid Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon!

[Grazrug]

No. If you want to play a High elf/Blood elf, then make a blood elf and fight for the horde. This is how it is and it is here to stay.

The HE fanatics who still can't think outside of the generic tolkien stereotype of boxes never fail to amuse me.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I just really really want to see the high elves/ void elves roll around on the floor frothing their mouths when they realize they are being treated like the forest trolls as they invade Quel'thalas.

Or we'd just get more of the "WE"RE HERE TO REDEEM THE BLOOD ELVES BY VIOLENTLY FORCING THEM INTO THE ALLIANCE!"

Followed by "why aren't they joining the Alliance?"

Hell I'd settle for Vereesa going "watch how a REAL ranger general fights" only to get arrowed in the back by 2 random no name blood elf rangers

See this is why you are no fun! Instead of thinking of a cool set up for conflict your whole thing is just shitting on the alliance and their characters. It's really boring when the bias is so extreme.

We should be grateful that the bloodelf zones are protected by plot armor, aka the TBC phasing and zoning from outland. It should kepp it up like this.

I really hate how people prefer stagnation over any development that might not be 100% what they want.

You are acting like a Night Elf fan.

PS: I consider myself a night elf fan, but apparently that is heresy because if you ask "true NE fans" BfA has only been a shitshow for Nigth Elves. I'm sorry but I have not been this invested on NE lore since War3. I'm ALL for shaking up the status quo.

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The HE fanatics who still can't think outside of the generic tolkien stereotype of boxes never fail to amuse me.

As amusing as the people unable to see any nuance on WoW's High Elves and only see "generic tolkien stereotype" lol!

[Grazrug]

See this is why you are no fun! Instead of thinking of a cool set up for conflict your whole thing is just shitting on the alliance and their characters. It's really boring when the bias is so extreme.



I really hate how people prefer stagnation over any development that might not be 100% what they want.

You are acting like a Night Elf fan.

PS: I consider myself a night elf fan, but apparently that is heresy because if you ask "true NE fans" BfA has only been a shitshow for Nigth Elves. I'm sorry but I have not been this invested on NE lore since War3. I'm ALL for shaking up the status quo.

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As amusing as the people unable to see any nuance on WoW's High Elves and only see "generic tolkien stereotype" lol!

If the Draenei aren't losing their Isles, why should we lose Que'thalas, because the HE and VE crowd deserves even more catering? Friendly reminder that Blizzard is all about

a) balancing stuff.
b) destroying stuff.

Even if Silvermoon would be attacked it rather ends up destroyed on Horde terms just like it happened in Lordaeron.

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As amusing as the people unable to see any nuance on WoW's High Elves and only see "generic tolkien stereotype" lol!

Because they are exactly that. Just look at the Aragorn/Arwen love story between Alleria and Turalyon. High Elves are nothing but humans with pointy ears, similar to their Tolkien counterparts. Their mixing up into the human society of Stoemwind and creating half breeds in their new relationships, are an even further indication for this.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

If the Draenei aren't losing their Isles, why should we lose Que'thalas, because the HE and VE crowd deserves even more catering? Friendly reminder that Blizzard is all about

a) balancing stuff.
b) destroying stuff.

Even if Silvermoon would be attacked it rather ends up destroyed on Horde terms just like it happened in Lordaeron.

It's so utterly boring to demand total equivalence in terms of narrative development. It handicaps progression by adding this arbitrary hurdle just to check a list.

And again, I am not even suggesting the BE's loose Silvermoon, just that a Warfront happens in Quel'thalas. At most I'm saying the Ghostlands can end on Alliance hands.

Because they are exactly that. Just look at the Aragorn/Arwen love story between Alleria and Turalyon. High Elves are nothing but humans with pointy ears, similar to their Tolkien counterparts. Their mixing up into the human society of Stoemwind and creating half breeds in their new relationships, are an even further indication for this.

I think you have a very limited view of what "Tolkien Elves" are, or how half-breed even work on his universe.

[Grazrug]

It's so utterly boring to demand total equivalence in terms of narrative development. It handicaps progression by adding this arbitrary hurdle just to check a list.

And again, I am not even suggesting the BE's loose Silvermoon, just that a Warfront happens in Quel'thalas. At most I'm saying the Ghostlands can end on Alliance hands.




I think you have a very limited view of what "Tolkien Elves" are, or how half-breed even work on his universe.

Tolkien stereotypes are boring, if you want this, Human-High Elves. Dwarfs circle jerk combined you might also just play LotR online. WoW wants to break off from these stereotypes. Have been so for the past 12 years since BE joined Horde.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Tolkien stereotypes are boring, if you want this, Human-High Elves. Dwarfs circle jerk combined you might also just play LotR online. WoW wants to break off from these stereotypes. Have been so for the past 12 years since BE joined Horde.

Seriously I don't even know what you think Tolkien Elves are bhahah, cause as it sounds, like the only thing you know about them is Arwen...

[Grazrug]

Seriously I don't even know what you think Tolkien Elves are bhahah, cause as it sounds, like the only thing you know about them is Arwen...

The Highelves-Dwarves-Humans club united is a direct cause of Tolkien's universe. That's a fact.

[Deleted]

Seriously I don't even know what you think Tolkien Elves are bhahah, cause as it sounds, like the only thing you know about them is Arwen...

In fact, LOTR Elves are 100% much more interesting than WoW High Elves. Tolkien created great stories about them in the "Silmarillion", with bloody civil wars and whatnot. Even Warhammer High Elves have more depth. I also enjoyed their portrayal in the "Dwarves" and "Albae" books (M. Heitz). There are also great Elven races in the "Earthdawn" and "Shadowrun" RPG settings. But in WoW, HIgh Elves are simply clichees - boring and generic. They embody the stereotype and nothing more, since all the interesting and original bits went along into the Blood Elf storyline.

Before that, or the introduction of Night Elves, I could not care less about Elves in WoW. High Elves don't deserve the attention they get.

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The Highelves-Dwarves-Humans club united is a direct cause of Tolkien's universe. That's a fact.

This is true, and this is the reason why I don't play Alliance anymore, except to get the story bits which I don't get while playing Horde. I have played LOTRO for years, and that game captures the spirit of united "good" races way better. Why would I want to have a mediocre copy of that in WoW?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

In fact, LOTR Elves are 100% much more interesting than WoW High Elves. Tolkien created great stories about them in the "Silmarillion", with bloody civil wars and whatnot. Even Warhammer High Elves have more depth. I also enjoyed their portrayal in the "Dwarves" and "Albae" books (M. Heitz). There are also great Elven races in the "Earthdawn" and "Shadowrun" RPG settings. But in WoW, HIgh Elves are simply clichees - boring and generic. They embody the stereotype and nothing more, since all the interesting and original bits went along into the Blood Elf storyline.

Before that, or the introduction of Night Elves, I could not care less about Elves in WoW. High Elves don't deserve the attention they get.

Starts saying "in fact", proceeds to give an opinion. Lol.

And, yes, of course Tolkien elves are more interesting, duh. The point is that the current High Elves are at this point far removed from their tolkienesque inception in War2, and personally, I like the potential of that context as a dying group that's kinda on the limbo. And that's the thing, bringing up another portrayals of High Elves in other narratives feels kinda pointless, because I specifically like WoW elves, I don't really care for them in other things -I mean nothing against, but they are rarely my favorite race- So to say they are "boring and generic" seems like a very shallow read on High Elves.

I find them interesting, that's why I like them, not because they are elves. Of course you disagree with this, but IDK, I am skeptic of opinions that are "high elves are generic tolkien rip offs" when basically everything that has happened to them since War 3 has moved them farther from that. And I'm not even counting Blood Elves who became their own thing.

The Highelves-Dwarves-Humans club united is a direct cause of Tolkien's universe. That's a fact.

And that's a pretty shallow comparison given how contextually in WoW their relationship and background is different. Of course Warcraft is based on LotR, but it's pretty damn obvious the story has moved on it's own way, so to say that Elves, Dwarvs and Humans as allies being influenced in such a way makes it impossible to have it's own narrative it's a pretty silly thing to say.

[Grazrug]

Starts saying "in fact", proceeds to give an opinion. Lol.

And, yes, of course Tolkien elves are more interesting, duh. The point is that the current High Elves are at this point far removed from their tolkienesque inception in War2, and personally, I like the potential of that context as a dying group that's kinda on the limbo. And that's the thing, bringing up another portrayals of High Elves in other narratives feels kinda pointless, because I specifically like WoW elves, I don't really care for them in other things -I mean nothing against, but they are rarely my favorite race- So to say they are "boring and generic" seems like a very shallow read on High Elves.

I find them interesting, that's why I like them, not because they are elves. Of course you disagree with this, but IDK, I am skeptic of opinions that are "high elves are generic tolkien rip offs" when basically everything that has happened to them since War 3 has moved them farther from that. And I'm not even counting Blood Elves who became their own thing.

High Elves are just pointy eared humans. They spent so much time together with them, assimilating into their cities, cultures and creating probally dozens of half breed offsprings that you can't serperate them anymore. They are as generic as you can get. At least the Tolkien Elves tho had dark theems around them, just like the "evil" humans. But in WoW? They are presented as the pillar of perfection in everything they do, simply by being the biggest cheerleaders of Stormwind. Most famous of course Alleria and Vereesa.

[Rozz]

Thinking on this again, it would make a good chance to finally settle the score between HEs, VEs, and BEs. At this point the only people waging this feud are HEs/VEs, while BEs could care less about what they're doing.

I'm so sick of the HEs/VEs crying about redemption and traitors. When will they realize they're the just the understudy?

[united]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287123/...ons-discovered

Warfront: Silvermoon.

We've known this for months guys. Come on.

It's going to be Alleria and Turalyon leading an assault on Silvermoon and it'll fail because it's where Arator's vision about his father dying comes true and Alleria goes off the deep-end afterwards. Horde gets saved by plot armor, Alliance rages because they feel "muh Horde bias", and Horde are happy because either Eversong or Silvermoon get facelifts as a result.

Liadrin should be the one to strike Turalyon down.

[Deleted]

High Elves are just pointy eared humans. They spent so much time together with them, assimilating into their cities, cultures and creating probally dozens of half breed offsprings that you can't serperate them anymore. They are as generic as you can get. At least the Tolkien Elves tho had dark theems around them, just like the "evil" humans. But in WoW? They are presented as the pillar of perfection in everything they do, simply by being the biggest cheerleaders of Stormwind. Most famous of course Alleria and Vereesa.

Exactly. High Elves in WoW remind me of one psychological concept of how people react to foreign cultures. Some find foreign cultures categorically below their own culture in all aspects, others are curious and try to decide objectively, which are good sides and bad sides in their own culture or in a foreign culture, and then there are people who are that enamoured by a foreign culture, that they completely assimilate to that (like seen in the "Last Samurai" movie). In WoW, High Elves are these types of characters, which is really not better than the first type. And since they did such a good job to assimilate into the Human culture, they don't deserve anything.

[Deleted]

There would be no "Grey" in the Invasion of Quel'thalas. Theron is a dictator who controls the minds of dissidents (such as those two Priests in the market) and exiles anyone who doesn't associate with his political agenda (Veresa, Umbric, Alleria...).

In addition, as the Void Lords themselves stated, Alleria Windrunner is the rightful Queen of Silvermoon. Indeed, House Windrunner was always one of the most powerful of the Kingdom, and with the Sunstriders and Sylvanas out of the way (the dead have no rights), Alleria has the strongest claim to the throne. Even the ominous and omniscient Void Lords aknowledged that.

Do note that Alleria wants to build a new future for every Thalassian citizen, a future in the Alliance. A golden age where the old cultural divisions are cast aside to usher in a new society driven by freedom of speech and religion. She does not want to kill every single Blood Elf in Quel'thalas.

As for Umbric, after everything he has suffered, he deserves a happy ending. And he would make for a great ruler, seeing as he cannot stand the dark seed of tyranny that has unfortunately taken root and festered in the black heart of the Horde. Although Alleria deserves to be Queen more than Umbric.

Spotted the void elf shit. Alleria is just a dumb high elf that was made for waifu purposes for whoever self insertex himself as Turalyon back then. She doesnt give one flying fuck about Silvermoon or their people. The first thing she does when she goes back to azeroth and tries to convince them at what she does best. Bending over or getting on her knees for their human overlords.

Why do people want her to be queen of Silvermoon. What in the fuck is this stupid headcanon bullshit.

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High Elves are just pointy eared humans. They spent so much time together with them, assimilating into their cities, cultures and creating probally dozens of half breed offsprings that you can't serperate them anymore. They are as generic as you can get. At least the Tolkien Elves tho had dark theems around them, just like the "evil" humans. But in WoW? They are presented as the pillar of perfection in everything they do, simply by being the biggest cheerleaders of Stormwind. Most famous of course Alleria and Vereesa.

Dont forget Valeera aswell. God why are high or blood elf women written so fucking awful. They're all trophy wives for humans.

Infracted.

[Evangeliste]

Spotted the void elf shit. Alleria is just a dumb high elf that was made for waifu purposes for whoever self insertex himself as Turalyon back then. She doesnt give one flying fuck about Silvermoon or their people. The first thing she does when she goes back to azeroth and tries to convince them at what she does best. Bending over or getting on her knees for their human overlords.

Why do people want her to be queen of Silvermoon. What in the fuck is this stupid headcanon bullshit.

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Dont forget Valeera aswell. God why are high or blood elf women written so fucking awful. They're all trophy wives for humans.

I get you're upset and passionate about the lore... but you might want to calm down and look at what you're expressing. You're claiming that someone is pushing their own headcanon when they are citing sources of legitimate canon. It's the complete opposite and Alleria doesn't want to take control of the Blood Elves, she wants to reunite them. That's a completely different perspective to ruling over them who is Lor'themar.

It seems like you may have forgotten the classic lore that came before the MMO that still stands, which was... the High Elves were part of the Alliance before defecting, it's going to be pretty easy to be involved with humans and incidentally fall in love. And even further back Blood Elves came from a line of evolution that made them originally Night Elves who... not surprisingly are on the Alliance side and came into contact with Humans.

If you want to extend that further currently under Horde, Sylvanas is doing a pretty unsatisfactory job of looking after the members of the Horde. Sylvanas had threatened Lor'themar with undeath in a not-so-nicely exchange and as a whole, you know as well as I do that this situation is turning into another Garrosh, which you can't deny was typically a shitty way to lead. And write too.
And well, the ruling under Sylvanas is turning more dictatorship every patch to no surprise. I can see why Alleria is portrayed as is despairing and trying to take her kin away from it, it's not difficult to see that Alleria knows Sylvanas personally and deeply to see how much she's become a tyrant and basically a *unt in undeath.

I do agree they are written on a generally bad status - but just accept the fact that the Windrunners only love the human dick. You're projecting a persona of a proud Hordie it seems but whacking a huge ass generalisation to every High Elven/Void Elven/Blood Elven cliche that they *all* love humans yet there's a whole faction (and the largest collection out of all of the 3 named groups) that sided against them, ya know the Blood Elves. And still chose to side against them despite 2 Windrunner sisters being Alliance and the last 1 leading her kin against them, whose turning into a megalord dick.

[Deleted]

I get you're upset and passionate about the lore... but you might want to calm down and look at what you're expressing. You're claiming that someone is pushing their own headcanon when they are citing sources of legitimate canon. It's the complete opposite and Alleria doesn't want to take control of the Blood Elves, she wants to reunite them. That's a completely different perspective to ruling over them who is Lor'themar.

Not to mention you clearly have forgotten the classic lore that came before the MMO which was... the High Elves were part of the Alliance before defecting, it's going to be pretty easy to be involved with humans. And even further back Blood Elves came from a line of evolution that made them originally Night Elves who... not surprisingly are on the Alliance side and came into contact with Humans.

If you want to extend that further currently under Horde, Sylvanas is doing a pretty unsatisfactory job of looking after the members of the Horde. Sylvanas threatens Lor'themar with undeath in a nice so kindly exchange and that situation entirely is not the best. The ruling under Sylvanas is turning more dictatorship every patch. I can see why Alleria is slightly dispairing and knows how much her sister has gone down the deep end since... well Alleria knows Sylvanas personally and deeply to see how much she's become a tyrant.

I do agree they are written on a generally bad status - but just accept the fact that the Windrunners only love the human dick. You're projecting a persona of a proud Hordie it seems but whacking a huge ass generalisation to every High Elven/Void Elven/Blood Elven cliche that they *all* love humans yet there's a whole faction that sided against them, ya know the Blood Elves. And still *chose* to side against them despite 2 Windrunner sisters being Alliance and the last 1 leading her kin against them.

I would agree with you, but right now the only noteable blood elf female that isn't written around human dick is Liadrin. Sylvanas seems okay, although she was quite obsessed with Arthas before.

I didn't say that ALL blood/void/high elves were addicted to humans, I meant that there are more noteworthy Elven women interested in humans and aligned with the Alliance.

You've got the windrunner sisters. Then you have Valeera Sanguinar who was basically Varian's side hoe and Lady Liadrin. I can't think of any noteworthy Blood Elves besides those 5, and maybe that blame is part me and part of Blizzard. But it's not an over generalization when you realize, is there actually a well known Elven couple in WoW, not counting Night Elves?

It's just so fucking stupid. I guess Turalyon is Metzen's self insert. Rhonin was K'naak's and right now we all know who Nathanos self insert is... that's pretty clear.

It's really fucking dumb.

[Deleted]

I would agree with you, but right now the only noteable blood elf female that isn't written around human dick is Liadrin. Sylvanas seems okay, although she was quite obsessed with Arthas before.

I didn't say that ALL blood/void/high elves were addicted to humans, I meant that there are more noteworthy Elven women interested in humans and aligned with the Alliance.

You've got the windrunner sisters. Then you have Valeera Sanguinar who was basically Varian's side hoe and Lady Liadrin. I can't think of any noteworthy Blood Elves besides those 5, and maybe that blame is part me and part of Blizzard. But it's not an over generalization when you realize, is there actually a well known Elven couple in WoW, not counting Night Elves?

It's just so fucking stupid. I guess Turalyon is Metzen's self insert. Rhonin was K'naak's and right now we all know who Nathanos self insert is... that's pretty clear.

It's really fucking dumb.

My female BE characters would rather die than fornicate with a Human. Just like my male BE characters only accept females from their race as partners. And before people come here with all the "love conquers all" and "racism" crap - you would not fall in love with a gorilla, would you? To Blood Elves, Humans are probably nothing more than that, gorillas who are a bit more exalted. They could not even understand a being which thinks in totally different time spans. I have yet to see a Human fall for an Orc, whatever gender combination. As long as we don't have that type of love story, everything about love being stronger that racial constraints is hypocrisy.

Well, just again, Tolkien is to blame with Arven and Aragorn, and his stupid take on Romeo and Julia in the Silmarillion, and the whole Half-Elf crap. It's always some human male getting a woman which he actually does not deserve, not matter how much of a paragon he is. Patriarchy at its best.

[Evangeliste]

I would agree with you, but right now the only noteable blood elf female that isn't written around human dick is Liadrin. Sylvanas seems okay, although she was quite obsessed with Arthas before.

I didn't say that ALL blood/void/high elves were addicted to humans, I meant that there are more noteworthy Elven women interested in humans and aligned with the Alliance.

You've got the windrunner sisters. Then you have Valeera Sanguinar who was basically Varian's side hoe and Lady Liadrin. I can't think of any noteworthy Blood Elves besides those 5, and maybe that blame is part me and part of Blizzard. But it's not an over generalization when you realize, is there actually a well known Elven couple in WoW, not counting Night Elves?

It's just so fucking stupid. I guess Turalyon is Metzen's self insert. Rhonin was K'naak's and right now we all know who Nathanos self insert is... that's pretty clear.

It's really fucking dumb.

Liadrin I think will basically be a nun. It seems pretty much the norm for Paladins to be single ... *hides Turalyon*. And well Sylvanas isn't different to her sisters. Nathanos was the first human ranger trained by Quel'thalas and both he and her were close, being in close proximity both race and personal space will make those stories happen.

Blizz don't need much of an excuse with their romance as they just built on the lore already there since he was Undead in Cataclysm trianing Forsaken Hunters, so his Legion transformation isn't that much of a stretch and as an insert to carry gameplay and make Forsaken Hunters/Rangers a genuine thing for lore. I mean looking at their relationship on the big-screen, it doesn't seem all that lovey but in fact Sylvanas manipulating the shit out of him.

With Valeera, I would avoid it as she isn't really Horde or Alliance - she only cares for Varian and Anduin basically due to the Ghost Wolf history. But you're right there's more Elven lovers of Humans based in Alliance - but as said before, given as they were both part of the Alliance together I don't have an issue with it.

It would be weirder if it didn't thought the amount is annoying but it's also silly to be. It's like getting pissed off with Mok'nathal or Orc-Draenei half-breeds like Garona, they were in close proximity and such. Logically it was going to happen some day. Just they haven't gone mad on them because Rexxar and Garona are on the special, snowflake train of a character. If you want to go full blown crazy, what's weirder is Garona's and Medivh's relationship has been retconned with Me'dan just tossed into corner to be forgotten.


As for non-Human to Elven relationships... The only one I can faintly remember is there was some romance between Sylvanas and Lor'themar at one point though admittedly they never went full blown relationship. I think that might be because more often than that there's this companion format that pops up with Aethas, Rommath, Lor'themar, Liadrin and so on which is pretty much the Blood Elven trope that's well known.

Relationships in the Horde side don't appear to be common whatsoever and really after Aggra and Thrall even Sylvanas and Nathanos is weird, it seems jarring and with Thrall wasn't really needed or enjoyed. Compare that to Alliance where a lot have relationships and you have Human/Elven ones pretty much acceptable, heck Human and Elven halfbreeds is about as common and expected as there being faction bias. And if you look at same race relationships on Alliance, they either hardly exist or completely mocked like Tyrande and Malfurion who are both the same race.

In the end, I think it's not the relationship or the race that causes the issue but the characters themselves that make it good, bearable or damn right stupid. And on the side, it looks like any Human relation either Alliance or Horde is overlooked because well we are human too.

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My female BE characters would rather die than fornicate with a Human. Just like my male BE characters only accept females from their race as partners. And before people come here with all the "love conquers all" and "racism" crap - you would not fall in love with a gorilla, would you? To Blood Elves, Humans are probably nothing more than that, gorillas who are a bit more exalted. They could not even understand a being which thinks in totally different time spans. I have yet to see a Human fall for an Orc, whatever gender combination. As long as we don't have that type of love story, everything about love being stronger that racial constraints is hypocrisy.

Well, just again, Tolkien is to blame with Arven and Aragorn, and his stupid take on Romeo and Julia in the Silmarillion, and the whole Half-Elf crap. It's always some human male getting a woman which he actually does not deserve, not matter how much of a paragon he is. Patriarchy at its best.

Gorillas. I don't think humans live or fight alongside Gorillas. Nor did Gorillas take further steps of evolution to be of similar capabilities and capacities as Humans. Which is the crux of your juxtaposition.

And using your analogy, Blood Elves descended from Night Elves who were feral Trolls prior to that and Humans descended from Vrykul who were Titan-forged. If anyone is going to be the Gorilla scenario (to which you've clearly suggested that they are the more primordial beings), you're using it's going to be the Blood Elves in that not the Humans.

That's due to that the basis of their evolution is Trolls is a naturally occurring species on Azeroth, Warcraft Humans are not. Gorillas are a naturally occurring species. Although real humans are also a naturally occuring species, Warcraft ones are descendants of Titan-forged. An alien creation put onto Azeroth to battle swarms of the Black Empire, compared to Trolls not really in it. So why apply an analogy of organic species onto non-organic ones?

And, it's a little ironic that the only hyperbole here of Tolkien here is you using the Tolkien ideology of how can a Human understand Elves and vice versa. You've basically quoted exactly what Elrond does to his daughter, mimicked the same attitude that Humans are an underling race, mere Gorillas incapable of aspiring to anything. And in both franchises, completely undermined that mindset. More than once.

LoTR's propped up by attitudes like Elrond's and indeed Elvish ones so to from not being xenophobic, no Elvish superiority complex, fighting to survive an all-ending powerful being, etc then watching their comrades and allies in arms, succumb to greed, temptation of power and more that endangered the world and every species in it, thanks to a ring, owned by someone they literally slew.
Compared to Warcraft's is propped up by one man's Human superiority complex, race prejudice, gross misuse and abuse of power with constant betrayal of race of people for being a xenophobic arsehole (who shouldn't have been leading but was by default) to endanger the world and every species in the entire universe.

Tolkien Elves are pissed off at Humans being weak-willed. Blood Elves are pissed off because of one Human.

The crossing of races in Tolkien... is only a fiction fabrication of real-world happenings. And it predates Tolkien, in Norse mythology which is what Tolkien heavily relies and is inspired from has all manner of cross, race breeding. They actually have half-Elven breeds because Elves were originally *only* Norse mythology before it became mainstream fantasy.

"Notable examples include the Danish princess Skuld of Hrólf Kraki's saga, and the hero Högni of the Thidrekssaga (his mother was a human queen), and the royal line of Alfheim [Realm of the Elves], which was related to the elves and more beautiful than other people, according to the Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-elf

Those texts mentioned can date as far back as 400-500 AD. And if you want to go even crazier, for example, Loki's children is a wolf, a horse, a snake and another being all who are sired with a Frost Giant or a horse.

[Deleted]

Liadrin I think will basically be a nun. It seems pretty much the norm for Paladins to be single ... *hides Turalyon*. And well Sylvanas isn't different to her sisters. Nathanos was the first human ranger trained by Quel'thalas and both he and her were close, being in close proximity both race and personal space will make those stories happen.

Blizz don't need much of an excuse with their romance as they just built on the lore already there since he was Undead in Cataclysm trianing Forsaken Hunters, so his Legion transformation isn't that much of a stretch and as an insert to carry gameplay and make Forsaken Hunters/Rangers a genuine thing for lore. I mean looking at their relationship on the big-screen, it doesn't seem all that lovey but in fact Sylvanas manipulating the shit out of him.

With Valeera, I would avoid it as she isn't really Horde or Alliance - she only cares for Varian and Anduin basically due to the Ghost Wolf history. But you're right there's more Elven lovers of Humans based in Alliance - but as said before, given as they were both part of the Alliance together I don't have an issue with it.

It would be weirder if it didn't thought the amount is annoying but it's also silly to be. It's like getting pissed off with Mok'nathal or Orc-Draenei half-breeds like Garona, they were in close proximity and such. Logically it was going to happen some day. Just they haven't gone mad on them because Rexxar and Garona are on the special, snowflake train of a character. If you want to go full blown crazy, what's weirder is Garona's and Medivh's relationship has been retconned with Me'dan just tossed into corner to be forgotten.


As for non-Human to Elven relationships... The only one I can faintly remember is there was some romance between Sylvanas and Lor'themar at one point though admittedly they never went full blown relationship. I think that might be because more often than that there's this companion format that pops up with Aethas, Rommath, Lor'themar, Liadrin and so on which is pretty much the Blood Elven trope that's well known.

Relationships in the Horde side don't appear to be common whatsoever and really after Aggra and Thrall even Sylvanas and Nathanos is weird, it seems jarring and with Thrall wasn't really needed or enjoyed. Compare that to Alliance where a lot have relationships and you have Human/Elven ones pretty much acceptable, heck Human and Elven halfbreeds is about as common and expected as there being faction bias. And if you look at same race relationships on Alliance, they either hardly exist or completely mocked like Tyrande and Malfurion who are both the same race.

In the end, I think it's not the relationship or the race that causes the issue but the characters themselves that make it good, bearable or damn right stupid. And on the side, it looks like any Human relation either Alliance or Horde is overlooked because well we are human too.

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Gorillas. I don't think humans live or fight alongside Gorillas. Nor did Gorillas take further steps of evolution to be of similar capabilities and capacities as Humans. Which is the crux of your juxtaposition.

And using your analogy, Blood Elves descended from Night Elves who were feral Trolls prior to that and Humans descended from Vrykul who were Titan-forged. If anyone is going to be the Gorilla scenario (to which you've clearly suggested that they are the more primordial beings), you're using it's going to be the Blood Elves in that not the Humans.

That's due to that the basis of their evolution is Trolls is a naturally occurring species on Azeroth, Warcraft Humans are not. Gorillas are a naturally occurring species. Although real humans are also a naturally occuring species, Warcraft ones are descendants of Titan-forged. An alien creation put onto Azeroth to battle swarms of the Black Empire, compared to Trolls not really in it. So why apply an analogy of organic species onto non-organic ones?

And, it's a little ironic that the only hyperbole here of Tolkien here is you using the Tolkien ideology of how can a Human understand Elves and vice versa. You've basically quoted exactly what Elrond does to his daughter, mimicked the same attitude that Humans are an underling race, mere Gorillas incapable of aspiring to anything. And in both franchises, completely undermined that mindset. More than once.

LoTR's propped up by attitudes like Elrond's and indeed Elvish ones so to from not being xenophobic, no Elvish superiority complex, fighting to survive an all-ending powerful being, etc then watching their comrades and allies in arms, succumb to greed, temptation of power and more that endangered the world and every species in it, thanks to a ring, owned by someone they literally slew.
Compared to Warcraft's is propped up by one man's Human superiority complex, race prejudice, gross misuse and abuse of power with constant betrayal of race of people for being a xenophobic arsehole (who shouldn't have been leading but was by default) to endanger the world and every species in the entire universe.

Tolkien Elves are pissed off at Humans being weak-willed. Blood Elves are pissed off because of one Human.

The crossing of races in Tolkien... is only a fiction fabrication of real-world happenings. And it predates Tolkien, in Norse mythology which is what Tolkien heavily relies and is inspired from has all manner of cross, race breeding. They actually have half-Elven breeds because Elves were originally *only* Norse mythology before it became mainstream fantasy.



Those texts mentioned can date as far back as 400-500 AD. And if you want to go even crazier, for example, Loki's children is a wolf, a horse, a snake and another being all who are sired with a Frost Giant or a horse.

You know that my gorilla example is just an analogy, right? I don't really speak of genetic relationships. These concepts don't exist in a medieval world. It's also us who know the relationship between Trolls and Elves. The Elves in game only know that Nightborne and Sin'dorei have been Night Elves before, and got changed by magic forces of the Sunwell and Nightwell. I also am sceptical about the in-character knowledge about the Curse of Flesh and all these things. Even if there are some people who know these things, I bet the majority does not.

Funny that you mention Elrond. He is one of the Half-Elves who decided to follow the Elven way of life. He was compassionate though, and full of honor, and he loved his daughter so he finally decided to let her go, and to support the man he loved and Humans as a race. But this is Tolikien, this is a world full of idealism in the face of evil and horrors. This is a classical myth / storytale. Warcraft uses many fantasy tropes, but it is ultimately something different. Our "heroes" use torture, for example. This is something which good characters in Tolkien stories would not do except in their darkest states of mind, or influenced by the One Ring.

Warhammer already breaks with this concept and creates a much darker world. And while Elves in this setting are mostly good, they are arrogant, prideful, and condescending towards humans. You find the same attitude in WoW, though High Elves have been a bit more benevolent towards Humans in history, because they had a great benefit of Humans helping them out in their wars against Trolls. Probably just have been using them as tools and cannon fodder, because Humans surely have greater population numbers.

Blood Elves already have a history of being left down by people who should have been helping them. First, Humans brought the Scourge over their lands. Second, their former allies did their best to exterminate them in their weakest times. And then, the Dalaran purge. Now, we also have the Void Elves in the Alliance, abominations who's mere existance threatens the Sunwell, the most important thing to the Sin'dorei (and technically also to the High Elves, who are allowed to visit it, but somehow they manage to ignore the threat going out from the Void Elves). There are plenty of reasons to hate Humans, or the Alliance.

Of course we had a chance to break this vicious circle once and for all in Legion, but Blizzard decided to dismante the Class Orders again, instead of dismantling the Horde and the Alliance. At this point, everything is let loose. Hatred and bloodlust are triumphant. Khadgar is probably the only human at this point who could turn the tides. But such things are of course bad for their war meta, so people like Khadgar are nowhere to be seen, and Magni is left out alone and probably not even to be trusted, if some mad prophecies are right.

[Terongor]

Liadrin I think will basically be a nun. It seems pretty much the norm for Paladins to be single ... *hides Turalyon*. And well Sylvanas isn't different to her sisters. Nathanos was the first human ranger trained by Quel'thalas and both he and her were close, being in close proximity both race and personal space will make those stories happen.

Blizz don't need much of an excuse with their romance as they just built on the lore already there since he was Undead in Cataclysm trianing Forsaken Hunters, so his Legion transformation isn't that much of a stretch and as an insert to carry gameplay and make Forsaken Hunters/Rangers a genuine thing for lore. I mean looking at their relationship on the big-screen, it doesn't seem all that lovey but in fact Sylvanas manipulating the shit out of him.

With Valeera, I would avoid it as she isn't really Horde or Alliance - she only cares for Varian and Anduin basically due to the Ghost Wolf history. But you're right there's more Elven lovers of Humans based in Alliance - but as said before, given as they were both part of the Alliance together I don't have an issue with it.

It would be weirder if it didn't thought the amount is annoying but it's also silly to be. It's like getting pissed off with Mok'nathal or Orc-Draenei half-breeds like Garona, they were in close proximity and such. Logically it was going to happen some day. Just they haven't gone mad on them because Rexxar and Garona are on the special, snowflake train of a character. If you want to go full blown crazy, what's weirder is Garona's and Medivh's relationship has been retconned with Me'dan just tossed into corner to be forgotten.


As for non-Human to Elven relationships... The only one I can faintly remember is there was some romance between Sylvanas and Lor'themar at one point though admittedly they never went full blown relationship. I think that might be because more often than that there's this companion format that pops up with Aethas, Rommath, Lor'themar, Liadrin and so on which is pretty much the Blood Elven trope that's well known.

Relationships in the Horde side don't appear to be common whatsoever and really after Aggra and Thrall even Sylvanas and Nathanos is weird, it seems jarring and with Thrall wasn't really needed or enjoyed. Compare that to Alliance where a lot have relationships and you have Human/Elven ones pretty much acceptable, heck Human and Elven halfbreeds is about as common and expected as there being faction bias. And if you look at same race relationships on Alliance, they either hardly exist or completely mocked like Tyrande and Malfurion who are both the same race.

In the end, I think it's not the relationship or the race that causes the issue but the characters themselves that make it good, bearable or damn right stupid. And on the side, it looks like any Human relation either Alliance or Horde is overlooked because well we are human too.

- - - Updated - - -

Gorillas. I don't think humans live or fight alongside Gorillas. Nor did Gorillas take further steps of evolution to be of similar capabilities and capacities as Humans. Which is the crux of your juxtaposition.

And using your analogy, Blood Elves descended from Night Elves who were feral Trolls prior to that and Humans descended from Vrykul who were Titan-forged. If anyone is going to be the Gorilla scenario (to which you've clearly suggested that they are the more primordial beings), you're using it's going to be the Blood Elves in that not the Humans.

That's due to that the basis of their evolution is Trolls is a naturally occurring species on Azeroth, Warcraft Humans are not. Gorillas are a naturally occurring species. Although real humans are also a naturally occuring species, Warcraft ones are descendants of Titan-forged. An alien creation put onto Azeroth to battle swarms of the Black Empire, compared to Trolls not really in it. So why apply an analogy of organic species onto non-organic ones?

And, it's a little ironic that the only hyperbole here of Tolkien here is you using the Tolkien ideology of how can a Human understand Elves and vice versa. You've basically quoted exactly what Elrond does to his daughter, mimicked the same attitude that Humans are an underling race, mere Gorillas incapable of aspiring to anything. And in both franchises, completely undermined that mindset. More than once.

LoTR's propped up by attitudes like Elrond's and indeed Elvish ones so to from not being xenophobic, no Elvish superiority complex, fighting to survive an all-ending powerful being, etc then watching their comrades and allies in arms, succumb to greed, temptation of power and more that endangered the world and every species in it, thanks to a ring, owned by someone they literally slew.
Compared to Warcraft's is propped up by one man's Human superiority complex, race prejudice, gross misuse and abuse of power with constant betrayal of race of people for being a xenophobic arsehole (who shouldn't have been leading but was by default) to endanger the world and every species in the entire universe.

Tolkien Elves are pissed off at Humans being weak-willed. Blood Elves are pissed off because of one Human.

The crossing of races in Tolkien... is only a fiction fabrication of real-world happenings. And it predates Tolkien, in Norse mythology which is what Tolkien heavily relies and is inspired from has all manner of cross, race breeding. They actually have half-Elven breeds because Elves were originally *only* Norse mythology before it became mainstream fantasy.



Those texts mentioned can date as far back as 400-500 AD. And if you want to go even crazier, for example, Loki's children is a wolf, a horse, a snake and another being all who are sired with a Frost Giant or a horse.

Well Tirion Fordring had a child and a wife and same goes for Alexandros Mograine( Two childs), Thomas Thomson (AKA headless horseman) with 2 childs and a wife so we have 4 Paladins with Turalyon who have had children and a with 2 of them being founding members of the silver hand so its still a headcanon calling it a norm as there are plenty cases Paladins have had children.

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Liadrin I think will basically be a nun. It seems pretty much the norm for Paladins to be single ... *hides Turalyon*. And well Sylvanas isn't different to her sisters. Nathanos was the first human ranger trained by Quel'thalas and both he and her were close, being in close proximity both race and personal space will make those stories happen.

Blizz don't need much of an excuse with their romance as they just built on the lore already there since he was Undead in Cataclysm trianing Forsaken Hunters, so his Legion transformation isn't that much of a stretch and as an insert to carry gameplay and make Forsaken Hunters/Rangers a genuine thing for lore. I mean looking at their relationship on the big-screen, it doesn't seem all that lovey but in fact Sylvanas manipulating the shit out of him.

With Valeera, I would avoid it as she isn't really Horde or Alliance - she only cares for Varian and Anduin basically due to the Ghost Wolf history. But you're right there's more Elven lovers of Humans based in Alliance - but as said before, given as they were both part of the Alliance together I don't have an issue with it.

It would be weirder if it didn't thought the amount is annoying but it's also silly to be. It's like getting pissed off with Mok'nathal or Orc-Draenei half-breeds like Garona, they were in close proximity and such. Logically it was going to happen some day. Just they haven't gone mad on them because Rexxar and Garona are on the special, snowflake train of a character. If you want to go full blown crazy, what's weirder is Garona's and Medivh's relationship has been retconned with Me'dan just tossed into corner to be forgotten.


As for non-Human to Elven relationships... The only one I can faintly remember is there was some romance between Sylvanas and Lor'themar at one point though admittedly they never went full blown relationship. I think that might be because more often than that there's this companion format that pops up with Aethas, Rommath, Lor'themar, Liadrin and so on which is pretty much the Blood Elven trope that's well known.

Relationships in the Horde side don't appear to be common whatsoever and really after Aggra and Thrall even Sylvanas and Nathanos is weird, it seems jarring and with Thrall wasn't really needed or enjoyed. Compare that to Alliance where a lot have relationships and you have Human/Elven ones pretty much acceptable, heck Human and Elven halfbreeds is about as common and expected as there being faction bias. And if you look at same race relationships on Alliance, they either hardly exist or completely mocked like Tyrande and Malfurion who are both the same race.

In the end, I think it's not the relationship or the race that causes the issue but the characters themselves that make it good, bearable or damn right stupid. And on the side, it looks like any Human relation either Alliance or Horde is overlooked because well we are human too.

- - - Updated - - -

Gorillas. I don't think humans live or fight alongside Gorillas. Nor did Gorillas take further steps of evolution to be of similar capabilities and capacities as Humans. Which is the crux of your juxtaposition.

And using your analogy, Blood Elves descended from Night Elves who were feral Trolls prior to that and Humans descended from Vrykul who were Titan-forged. If anyone is going to be the Gorilla scenario (to which you've clearly suggested that they are the more primordial beings), you're using it's going to be the Blood Elves in that not the Humans.

That's due to that the basis of their evolution is Trolls is a naturally occurring species on Azeroth, Warcraft Humans are not. Gorillas are a naturally occurring species. Although real humans are also a naturally occuring species, Warcraft ones are descendants of Titan-forged. An alien creation put onto Azeroth to battle swarms of the Black Empire, compared to Trolls not really in it. So why apply an analogy of organic species onto non-organic ones?

And, it's a little ironic that the only hyperbole here of Tolkien here is you using the Tolkien ideology of how can a Human understand Elves and vice versa. You've basically quoted exactly what Elrond does to his daughter, mimicked the same attitude that Humans are an underling race, mere Gorillas incapable of aspiring to anything. And in both franchises, completely undermined that mindset. More than once.

LoTR's propped up by attitudes like Elrond's and indeed Elvish ones so to from not being xenophobic, no Elvish superiority complex, fighting to survive an all-ending powerful being, etc then watching their comrades and allies in arms, succumb to greed, temptation of power and more that endangered the world and every species in it, thanks to a ring, owned by someone they literally slew.
Compared to Warcraft's is propped up by one man's Human superiority complex, race prejudice, gross misuse and abuse of power with constant betrayal of race of people for being a xenophobic arsehole (who shouldn't have been leading but was by default) to endanger the world and every species in the entire universe.

Tolkien Elves are pissed off at Humans being weak-willed. Blood Elves are pissed off because of one Human.

The crossing of races in Tolkien... is only a fiction fabrication of real-world happenings. And it predates Tolkien, in Norse mythology which is what Tolkien heavily relies and is inspired from has all manner of cross, race breeding. They actually have half-Elven breeds because Elves were originally *only* Norse mythology before it became mainstream fantasy.



Those texts mentioned can date as far back as 400-500 AD. And if you want to go even crazier, for example, Loki's children is a wolf, a horse, a snake and another being all who are sired with a Frost Giant or a horse.

Well Tirion Fordring had a child and a wife and same goes for Alexandros Mograine( Two childs), Thomas Thomson (AKA headless horseman) with 2 childs and a wife so we have 4 Paladins with Turalyon who have had children and a with 2 of them being founding members of the silver hand so its still a headcanon calling it a norm as there are plenty cases Paladins have had children.

Also in short story Blood of the Highborne it was pretty much stated that Lor'themar have had strong feelings towards lady liadrin.