If you play addon free dont join group activity

[Mixxy]

But you know what? screw challenge runs, screw things like link to the past randomiser, screw playing through dark souls at level 1 while naked and using nothing but your fists. 100% optimal efficiency is what you need, anything less and you are a subhuman piece of trash right?

Nice strawman.

You know the key difference between all of those and raiding in WoW?

In a raid, there's 19 other people depending on you to NOT suck. If you're playing a single-player game, or soloing content... play however you want. Glory to you. I, myself, have had a lot of fun setting gimmicky challenges for myself in video games I've played to death.

But when you're playing a co-operative game, online, with DOZENS of other players who are all counting on you to do your best, you do your fucking best. Don't be a selfish prick and hold everyone back because you're too goddamn lazy to download a 4mb zip file.

It does. Not. Matter how good you are without the addon. It's a simple, objective FACT that you will be better than that with DBM. Choosing to raid without it is like choosing to raid in greens.

You are deliberately, wilfully handicapping yourself for literally no reason.

Players like YOU are what's wrong with raiding. People with the mentality of "Well I'm fine so fuck everyone else."

Grow up.

[Deleted]

it is possible to play without addons and even do mythic ghuun i guess.
but like it or not, addons will improve your performance, no matter how good you are. some get 20% better, some only 5%, but you will improve.

i agree that dbm sometimes seem to just clutter your UI, beeping and dooting with all kinds of irrelevant information. but thats why it got settings, so you can filter out info that is irrelevant to you.
you can play without a dps meter, but personally i like to keep track on how well im doing. did i pull my weight on priority targets? but it mainly is a raidleader "police" addon. who are dps whoring in crawgs? who are not saving CDs for adds on fetid? who could do a better job on interrupts, etc.
i couldnt imagine playing without weakauras, it makes it way easier to keep track of my buffs, debuffs and CDs. It frees up my attention-capacity to other stuff, while doing close to optimal dps. you can also get fancy weakauras that further emphasizes important mechanics, like "g'huunis" on mythic g'huun.

you can ride a bike on a flat tire, and you may even be faster than me. but you cant deny that youd be even faster if you put air in your tire.

[Nnyco]

You mean simple things that can be solved by the two tanks communicating with one another over voice? If your raid has multiple people talking constantly for no reason, thus making it hard for the tanks to do that... That's a problem that should be solved before yelling at people for not having an addon.

And seein how OP mentioned that the tank even fucked that up its save to say he needs an addon for that.

[foreversilenced]

Another example. I was pugging mythic mother on an alt. I entered a guild raid group. They wiped relentlessly and I could see what was going on via use of my addons. Watching it live as we play I could see the healers relentlessly failing to use heal CD as we crossed. How do you view this without any addon? I could see the druid healer was doing virtually nothing. I watched him at the point of crossing and he would use 0 cooldowns .. sitting on something pathetic like 4k heals and under tank.

I schooled him on using tranq + wild growth + flourish. He did it around 2 times and then forgot all the timings again and went back to 4k heals. When he did what I said he was keeping us alive and you would see him peak at 25-30k heals when we needed it. You can not tell me that you can track all of this and be this alert without the use of addons. Sorry not possible sir. Saying you won't use addons but then you live log and study logs is a pretty big joke. That doesn't happen. Goodbye sir.

[Mixxy]

While I don't have anything against other people using addons for their personal needs, at this point I think the game would be better off without any addons. I hope that they'll be disabled in the future. If someone requires using addons from other people, it means that the game is fundamentally broken.

This is just false. The game isn't broken. In fact, Blizzard have outright said that they balance raids around people having addons like DBM or Bigwigs. They've said that they love that addons like that exist, because it means they can design bosses to do much more interesting and varied stuff than they'd get away with if everyone was raiding blind with a stopwatch in hand.

So, no. Statements like:

WoW is designed to be played without addons

Are objective false. The game is, quite literally, designed to be played WITH addons.

[Deleted]

Hey so if you are one of those people who say you are old school and don't use addons - please stop joining group activity. I had a Main Tank in a progression guild who refused to download a single addon. Every boss he would just randomly walk into the boss with no prior warning. We never got to prepot. I ended up fighting him after several weeks of this and he gquit mid raid due to his refusal to get an addon. On top of this he was always taunting incorrectly and missing very basic things due to being "oldschool".

I now have a policy that if anyone pulls without a timer I just remove them. Be that a tank ilvl 390. Doing a 10 sec timer SAVES TIME because 20 people open properly, that's more dps = faster boss kill.

Basic requirement should be > a damage / heal metre > dbm / bigwigs. If you can't do that then you are just letting down every person you encounter in groups.

Addons are needed in raids if you wan't to be competetive or even to fill your role moderately, BUT op is generalising in the title as people like to do in internetz...probably to get more clicks?Anyways there is a lot of group content...Group finder daily heroic or normal mythic dung without addons? Sure why not, no one gives a shit it's few min faceroll race. Progressive raiding without addons? = incompetent dead weight. So yes and no...

[foreversilenced]

While I don't have anything against other people using addons for their personal needs, at this point I think the game would be better off without any addons. I hope that they'll be disabled in the future. If someone requires using addons from other people, it means that the game is fundamentally broken. I'm an old school hardcore mythic raider and I'm raiding without addons. Our tanks equipped with all the addons in the world are consistently failing to pull a boss in time. Some of our raiders are playing like aircraft pilots surrounded by millions of meters and weak auras and other stuff, yet they fail to execute simple mechanics. WoW is designed to be played without addons, they are absolutely not necessary. Now those players who have strange demands, please stop joining group activity, you're the ones who ruining this game.

Wait what... you think WOW is meant to be played without addons? Oh boy we got a live one here men. Mythic hardcore raider you say? Me thinks not.

[Deleted]

Wait what... you think WOW is meant to be played without addons? Oh boy we got a live one here men. Mythic hardcore raider you say? Me thinks not.

lol...just imagine the logistical nightmare as a raid leader. These purifist idealists...so naive.

[Mixxy]

it is possible to play without addons and even do mythic ghuun i guess.
but like it or not, addons will improve your performance, no matter how good you are. some get 20% better, some only 5%, but you will improve.

i agree that dbm sometimes seem to just clutter your UI, beeping and dooting with all kinds of irrelevant information. but thats why it got settings, so you can filter out info that is irrelevant to you.
you can play without a dps meter, but personally i like to keep track on how well im doing. did i pull my weight on priority targets? but it mainly is a raidleader "police" addon. who are dps whoring in crawgs? who are not saving CDs for adds on fetid? who could do a better job on interrupts, etc.
i couldnt imagine playing without weakauras, it makes it way easier to keep track of my buffs, debuffs and CDs. It frees up my attention-capacity to other stuff, while doing close to optimal dps. you can also get fancy weakauras that further emphasizes important mechanics, like "g'huunis" on mythic g'huun.

Exactly! Thank you.

A good player with all of the tools will always, always perform better than an equally skilled player with none of the tools. Anyone who says otherwise is literally just lying.

[wombats23]

it is possible to play without addons and even do mythic ghuun i guess.
but like it or not, addons will improve your performance, no matter how good you are. some get 20% better, some only 5%, but you will improve.

i agree that dbm sometimes seem to just clutter your UI, beeping and dooting with all kinds of irrelevant information. but thats why it got settings, so you can filter out info that is irrelevant to you.
you can play without a dps meter, but personally i like to keep track on how well im doing. did i pull my weight on priority targets? but it mainly is a raidleader "police" addon. who are dps whoring in crawgs? who are not saving CDs for adds on fetid? who could do a better job on interrupts, etc.
i couldnt imagine playing without weakauras, it makes it way easier to keep track of my buffs, debuffs and CDs. It frees up my attention-capacity to other stuff, while doing close to optimal dps. you can also get fancy weakauras that further emphasizes important mechanics, like "g'huunis" on mythic g'huun.

you can ride a bike on a flat tire, and you may even be faster than me. but you cant deny that youd be even faster if you put air in your tire.

so much this. go compare methodjosh's ui to cdew's priest ui when both are raiding. yeah, i get cdew is used to playing with next to no addons since he pvps at LAN, doesn't mean his ui isn't a clusterfuck of poorly presented information. on the other hand, josh's is so clearly presented that people literally sub to him so they can grab a copy of it.

addons used properly make you a better raider because they help you process information quicker, which is all high level raiding is.

[Garkanh]

I can understand the annoyance with people not using a boss mod, since it makes it so much easier to coordinate, but i've met people who god mad because i was using the default action bars. Why they would care is beyond me, i just prefer the clean and simple standard ui, and saying i shouldn't join group content because of the placement of my abilities on my screen is idiotic.

[Deleted]

I can understand the annoyance with people not using a boss mod, since it makes it so much easier to coordinate, but i've met people who god mad because i was using the default action bars. Why they would care is beyond me, i just prefer the clean and simple standard ui, and saying i shouldn't join group content because of the placement of my abilities on my screen is idiotic.

^ This.
I use addons - those that are required or useful to me. Guild requires DBM or Personal Loot Helper? Fine, it's mandatory (and useful anyway). A meter? Sure, I don't care who is on top, but I care if someone can't do half of what's required to finish the fight or if we have healing needed.

But I've heard so many times that it's impossible to heal with only basic UI, you need an addon for that. Some of those people have problems standing on designated markers but no, it's the addon that counts!. No addon will help people to do stuff correctly if they don't have the attitude to do it right in the first place.

To a player who wants to improve and pays attention a collection of addons set up for their needs is helpful. To someone who doesn't grasp the idea of what needs to be done even DBM yelling at them to avoid something won't help.

By the way, I'm wondering if OP realizes that group activity is also killing world bosses, some of which hit so weakly you can ignore anything and just keep hitting. Or where you can have PvP and non-PvP players mixed in the group so you can't heal some no matter what addons you have.
When it's group activity that is organized by someone regularly I don't see why that would even be an issue. Just make some addons mandatory for guild raiders/your pug group and enforce it.

[Meiffert]

It's 100% correct, also hit me with the reason why you do not use addons? I haven't seen 1 good reason not to.

I don't think that anybody is saying that you shouldn't use addons. (Other than your ninja-pulling tank, who was wrong.)

But you original message is just a bit awkward.
Firstly, I certainly don't think you need to download a huge boss mods addon just for pull timers. There are other ways to communicate when to pull, I'd be surprised if you couldn't see the countdown in raid chat without having the addon yourself.
Also, mandatory dps/heal meter? What for? Surely if you are half-serious about your performance, you look at logs to find the relevant information, not at recount mid-pull to see who got lucky with crits during opener or padding the most.


To have an efficient UI for raiding, you probably should make some adjustments from the original UI, namely to see some debuffs, procs and cooldowns more easily.
I personally strongly prefer weakauras, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the only option.


Other than that it's largely group specific and obviously you need to agree upon what to use.
If you use a loot council addon to distribute loot, angry assignment or ERT to assign jobs, or an addon for pull timer, it's pretty clear that everybody needs to be on board.
It's no different to getting the same voice communication method (be it the in game one, discord, teamspeak, mumble, ventrilo, skype, or whatever else).

[Temp name]

Exactly! Thank you.

A good player with all of the tools will always, always perform better than an equally skilled player with none of the tools. Anyone who says otherwise is literally just lying.

But a good player with no addons will still perform better than a bad player with loads. Addons don't make you a better player, they just allow you to play closer to your potential

[Loveliest]

You have this a bit wrong - you're implying two things:
- that a person who doesn't use addons can never function / play properly
- before addons people were really bad at playing the game

Did you know that before there was a dbm pull timer we'd make macros with raid warning countdown or yell the pull on voice chat? I still announce the start of my pulls on voice chat, even if I do a ready check beforehand and a dbm pull.
Also, did you know there's actually cues for most of the stuff that goes on? A good player understands the Scythe on Argus comes when he reaches full energy bar and doesn't necessarily need the DBM marker to know when it's coming. A good player actually listens to boss emotes like "Hear THIS" and stops casting without the need of DBM or a raid leader telling them to stop casting.


As a side note - there's nothing I hate more when I ask someone when they want to switch and they say "when dbm tells me to". I still recall the Ursoc fight in the first week or so, where DBM wasn't properly tuned. I kept trying to explain my offtank how to make the taunts and he just followed DBM, making me take both debuffs every single time.


So to your title, I'd say another "Don't play in groups if you just follow addons blindly. Especially if you use them for taunts."
There is not ONE single fight where you need to taunt and you don't have the necessary cues on the boss or your offtank. Addons help, but don't replace awareness.

[Ryzeth]

How does monitoring your DPS throughout combat make you play better? Do you look and think 'Im behind top DPS by X amount' and change your rotation and try things different? If you're any good at the game, you should know your set rotation for your given class and be pushing to give it your all regardless and alot of the time without thinking. Your argument for 'you should be looking at meters and pushing harder' is just as much BS as the rest of your arguments/OPINIONS. Like someone previously said, well done for getting me to reply twice, wont waste my time again. With a bit of luck you'll be like your name and silenced soon for the absolute dribble you continue to post

Think you quoted the wrong person, mate.

[Meiffert]

A good player with all of the tools will always, always perform better than an equally skilled player with none of the tools. Anyone who says otherwise is literally just lying.

For sure, though I've had a few experiences where I tell my co-tank to taunt when his debuff ends (standard tank swap stacking debuff mechanic), I see his debuff dropping off, wait for a taunt and nothing happens for another 20 seconds when I take a 4th stack (instead of taunting when I had 2 and he had 0), so I'm now taking double damage from the dot for no reason.
"Coincidently" the boss mods flash your screen to taunt at 4 stacks (because at one point during the fight there is a period where the stacks get applied more frequently, so swapping at 2 all the time would not work).

[Loveliest]

You do need addons. [...] Do you not care how you perform in a group? How do you know if you are healing /dpsing on point if you can not see your metre?

Ugh... I don't even want to touch on this... reminds me how nobody wanted to do the tiles on MSV first boss heroic because they didn't want to sacrifice DPS. And the whole trend where people use logs as a universal recount and doing "ranking runs" where you leave a few dpses on the boss to rank and the others do mechanics.

[Deleted]

Yeah still waiting for that real world first without easy mode add-ons.

[Biomega]

Apparently people aren't aware of the Number One Rule of Raiding:

1. Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't negatively affect the people you're playing with.

Use addons, don't use addons, click all buttons, hotkey all buttons, play with your butt for all I care - but the minute your personal preference is infringing on the enjoyment of other people, we're going to have a problem. The question is only how big a problem, and how is it negotiated. An attitude of "lol why do you care, don't take things so seriously" is a sure-fire way of getting the boot. Your teammates don't exist to cater to your whims. You are all in this together, so negotiate among yourselves what you do and do not tolerate. And if you step over the line for selfish reasons, don't expect to be carried.





P.S.: That rule works great outside of raiding, too.