Sylvanas didn’t ruin the Horde, Thrall Did...

[Minikin]

Thrall's choices lead into most of the events Garrosh took the fall for. Except the racism and old god stuff.

As someone, who always thought that "honorable savage" is self contradicting goofy concept i would be more than happy to give the Horde more of an edge rather than having it be just aliance 2.0

i dont disagree on the choices he made regarding durotar. but i do believe that people extrapolate that into the crazy Garrosh did and the normal Sylvanas is doing. Garrosh didnt lose because he attacked people left right and center, he lost it when he became racist to anything in the horde that didnt walk hunch backed and would rather use wood to make spikes on buildings than an actual roof for the hut. Thrall had nothing to do with that.

The horde being honorable doesnt make it into alliance 2.0. The choice to kill so many in Ashevale (the place was flooded with wisps due to dead night elves) and then going to burn teldrassil had nothing to do with what Thrall did. If wood and resources were the issue then Ashenvale would have been it. She chose to burn it cuz some new night elf said some words to her.

every character makes mistakes, otherwise it would be pretty damn boring or worse, become Anduin. Where your mistakes turn into gold too. Thrall made some mistakes definitely, but what Garrosh and Sylvanas did is all them. That whole line of "you made me what iam" before his ass got zapped was right in character from the dude who got upset the moment you made fun of his daddy.

[Super Dickmann]

Thrall isn't really responsible for that, IMO. Thrall attempted to return the Orcs to their cultural heritage before the interference of the Legion insofar as he understood it - mostly from the input of Drek'thar and Orgrim. Any kind of "noble-savage meme" was extant in Orcish culture before Thrall had any effect upon it.

Dropping the out of story aspect to discuss just the in-story, in WC3 and prior materials, arguably, sure. From then on, though, it's pretty clear that the things that make the Horde dysfunctional are the direct products of what Thrall did. The guilt cult, enforced primitivism, a lot of talk about values but no definition as to what they are, all of them go back to Thrall and lead up to this point. Thrall is the one who put his people in a shitty desert to make them pay penance, then at the same time returned to a homogenous version of shamanism and deindustrialization that meant the place wasn't fixed and they were reliant on Alliance handouts to exist. The values of the Horde he ran are so vague and insubstantial and so broken by the races he himself brought in and the leaders, like Gallywix, that he put into place, that they were immediately tossed into the bin the second he was out of the picture. They were also already ignored (for the Eastern Horde) and followed out of a sense of personal loyalty to him rather than any true belief (for the orcs, see Glory).

Garrosh was a reaction to him, sure, but it's Saurfang and Sylvanas that are really his successors, since they are the product of his Horde. One of them suicidally committed to an unclear ideal out of guilt, who's ideal version of the Horde is the same state that got their people starving in the desert because of the personal shame of one dude, the other basically the open dismissal of all his values in favor of the alliance of convenience and conquest it really was.

[sighy]

To play devil's advocate He said "I didn't knew you'd save us all" He didn't specifically said the Horde it could've been some grander picture.

But aside from that, Vol'Jin was screwed really hardly over it. It didn't make any sense for him to appoint her - of all people - to be his successor.
And devs knew it very well so they pulled those "Loa visions" out of their bums.

- it didn't make sense that Loa would care for elves
- it didn't make sense that Loa would care for undead
- it didn't make sense that Loa would care for undead elf.
- Loas aren't involved in politics and the thrones so they shouldn't have a say in it

And now with recent revelations it turns out it was not Loa.
So the the seasoned Shadow Hunter that was dealing with Loa since he was 17 couldn't distinguish Loa from some other darker entity, and couldn't sense that there was something fishy with them possibly caring for Sylvanas.

the only excuse he has is that he was fel poisoned.

And now it feels that devs realized how majorly they screwed up so they're backtracking on it.
And so we learn that Vol'Jin was abandoned by Loa not just during Broken shore but for entirety of that day
That some 2 incredibly powerful forces were meddled with him of which we don't know about.
One dark one that is behind sylv
And some Hand of Valor that brought him back.

And we have to deal with some cheap drama. Simply because they wanted to replace him with Sylvanas instead of keeping him- a guy who actually earned this title - a Warchief.

It still makes me sick when I think about it.

But this the extreme example on how rule of cool can ruin the story. How they cannot think about bigger picture and just go with whatever pops in their head and are coming with some far-fetched justifications.

I like to joke that he made the "spirits" stuff up, because she was the last capable person in Horde leadership left.

[Minikin]

OMFG how did I not notice the title.

I take it all back

its ok my friend. you have hope still. perhaps one day the frequency of "LEAVE SYLVANAS ALONE!" threads will die down (gonna be a while).

[Niroshi]

It was mostly Blizzard.

[Deleted]

It's not the killer fault, let's jail who invented fire powder! Or his mother, or his grandmother....

I hope you are not a lawyer.

[Deleted]

its ok my friend. you have hope still. perhaps one day the frequency of "LEAVE SYLVANAS ALONE!" threads will die down (gonna be a while).

In fairness, those threads will only die down if people stop posting excuses to hate on her for the same regurgitated shit we see 100 times every day. Oh look, it's another thread about Teldrassil. Oh look, it's another thread about why Garrosh was better. Oh look, it's another thread about Desolate Council. And on and on and on it goes. Cut out that repetitive dead-horse beating and you'll see all these so-called "defense" threads drop too. Everyone wins.

[SL1200]

This thread is like blaming Obama for things Trump is doing.

Infracted.

[Powerogue]

Doesn't that really mean that Garrosh ruined the Horde though?

I mean I'm not patting Thrall on the back or anything, he also thought Gallywix, who just tried to kill him, was a good pick for goblin leader. But Thrall founded the Horde. He's responsible for most of it's redeeming qualities.

[Niaraa]

Thall basicaly free the Orcs, save the darkspear and tauren from exctinction, help the NE and alliance to save the world, bring a nation for the Horde and make it prosper for years.

Sylvanas turn the horde into a tool to serve her own goal

[Aucald]

WoD sort of threw that out of the window, when it showed how savage they can be, even without the Legion meddling. I think that a lot of people have a problem, witht he "My people first" mentality employed in this. Even then cultures built on blind idealism don't tend to last long, because the problems ignored come back to bite them in the ass.

This myth was fully and utterly busted with WoD. If anything, Thrall wanted to turn the orcs from the path they always walked.

I don't think so - WoD showed pretty readily that the Horde wasn't a monolith. Obviously Thrall based his new Horde culture on that of the Frostwolves, the clan he had the most access to. The other clans were always more war-like, although groups like the Laughing Skull also aren't lock-step with the Iron Horde. There's also the fact that the AU clans aren't exactly a 1:1 replica of the MU clans of Draenor - they could easily be more hostile in general, or that much easier for Garrosh to shape into a workable army. Kairoz was looking for a version of Draenor that would best suit his goals and one with a more hostile Orcish clan-structure in general would go far toward those goals.

[sighy]

i dont disagree on the choices he made regarding durotar. but i do believe that people extrapolate that into the crazy Garrosh did and the normal Sylvanas is doing. Garrosh didnt lose because he attacked people left right and center, he lost it when he became racist to anything in the horde that didnt walk hunch backed and would rather use wood to make spikes on buildings than an actual roof for the hut. Thrall had nothing to do with that.

The horde being honorable doesnt make it into alliance 2.0. The choice to kill so many in Ashevale (the place was flooded with wisps due to dead night elves) and then going to burn teldrassil had nothing to do with what Thrall did. If wood and resources were the issue then Ashenvale would have been it. She chose to burn it cuz some new night elf said some words to her.

every character makes mistakes, otherwise it would be pretty damn boring or worse, become Anduin. Where your mistakes turn into gold too. Thrall made some mistakes definitely, but what Garrosh and Sylvanas did is all them. That whole line of "you made me what iam" before his ass got zapped was right in character from the dude who got upset the moment you made fun of his daddy.

Not exactly Thrall set up most of the issues Garrosh had to deal with, but Garrosh dealt with them the Warsong Orc way.(which totally didn't bit Thrall in the ass every time Grom was in charge of something)

War of Thorns never was about resources. Also Saurfang's strategy all the way until the Malfurion/Teldrassil bit. Also why in the world would they allow the Night Elves, from the outposts ambush them from behind?(notably they were ambushed in astanaar anyway). I don't think it's wrong for a leader to make decisions that favor their own people more than their enemies. And before you go with "But Anduin...", in her PoV he has no hold over his subjects or approves of attacks against the Horde and her personally. Or the good old "She plotting..." matter of factly we don't know of any of any plans she could have. We know she has an aspiration to destroy Stormwind due to personal issues with human kingdoms, but she is far from alone in that regard.

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Thall basicaly free the Orcs, save the darkspear and tauren from exctinction, help the NE and alliance to save the world, bring a nation for the Horde and make it prosper for years.

Sylvanas turn the horde into a tool to serve her own goal

And what is that goal? Preserve the Horde and it's interests? Live in a time of peace built on the Horde's terms? Or some whacky theory of yours that is unfounded, besides the one mention of an aspiration to destroy Stormwind and a quote that everyone dies eventually?

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I don't think so - WoD showed pretty readily that the Horde wasn't a monolith. Obviously Thrall based his new Horde culture on that of the Frostwolves, the clan he had the most access to. The other clans were always more war-like, although groups like the Laughing Skull also aren't lock-step with the Iron Horde. There's also the fact that the AU clans aren't exactly a 1:1 replica of the MU clans of Draenor - they could easily be more hostile in general, or that much easier for Garrosh to shape into a workable army. Kairoz was looking for a version of Draenor that would best suit his goals and one with a more hostile Orcish clan-structure in general would go far toward those goals.

We got the Warlord's shorts(Maraad describing our versions) and chronicles 2 to paint the picture. Also the Orcs didn't drink the demon blood, until the siege of Shattrah in our timeline(the last battle of that war). They had a massive war against the Gorian Empire. And even the Frostwolves had more aggressive members like Durotan's brothers.

[Deleted]

Thall basicaly free the Orcs, save the darkspear and tauren from exctinction, help the NE and alliance to save the world, bring a nation for the Horde and make it prosper for years.

Sylvanas turn the horde into a tool to serve her own goal

Sylvanas also saved the Forsaken from extinction by leading them as their Queen, giving them a home, and bringing them into the Horde.

Sylvanas also saved the Horde at the Broken Shore.

Sylvanas also helped the Night Elves and the Alliance to save the world from the Legion.

Sylvanas also looked to secure a future for the Horde by leading a war to take Kalimdor solely for their own.

[Aucald]

Dropping the out of story aspect to discuss just the in-story, in WC3 and prior materials, arguably, sure. From then on, though, it's pretty clear that the things that make the Horde dysfunctional are the direct products of what Thrall did. The guilt cult, enforced primitivism, a lot of talk about values but no definition as to what they are, all of them go back to Thrall and lead up to this point. Thrall is the one who put his people in a shitty desert to make them pay penance, then at the same time returned to a homogenous version of shamanism and deindustrialization that meant the place wasn't fixed and they were reliant on Alliance handouts to exist. The values of the Horde he ran are so vague and insubstantial and so broken by the races he himself brought in and the leaders, like Gallywix, that he put into place, that they were immediately tossed into the bin the second he was out of the picture. They were also already ignored (for the Eastern Horde) and followed out of a sense of personal loyalty to him rather than any true belief (for the orcs, see Glory).

I'm not saying Thrall didn't make mistakes as a leader, he most certainly did. Enforcing austerity on the Horde to "make up" for the actions of the First and Second Wars was rather wrongheaded of him. But that's not really part and parcel of Thrall's attempt to reclaim Horde culture, though; and Thrall's regime also didn't enforce primitivism - he led the building of Orgrimmar, after all, the largest and most metropolitan center the Orcs had ever possessed. Thrall's resurrection of Shamanic tradition also had a very high approval rate among the Orcs, as well. Under Thrall the Orcs enjoyed something of a cultural renaissance - increased technology, the influx of knowledge and learning, a focus on tradition and history, etc. etc. One might say his focus on values as almost to a fault, given that he didn't rise to meet increasing opposition from the Alliance (as well as within his own court).

Garrosh was a reaction to him, sure, but it's Saurfang and Sylvanas that are really his successors, since they are the product of his Horde. One of them suicidally committed to an unclear ideal out of guilt, who's ideal version of the Horde is the same state that got their people starving in the desert because of the personal shame of one dude, the other basically the open dismissal of all his values in favor of the alliance of convenience and conquest it really was.

We don't really know what Saurfang might intend for the Horde, or how he might lead it should he do so. Thrall and Saurfang are quite different in both personality and temperament, I find it highly doubtful they would rule in much of a similar way. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has pretty much zero regard for the Horde beyond her own wishes - she's not a product of a Thrall's Horde anymore than Garrosh himself was.

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We got the Warlord's shorts(Maraad describing our versions) and chronicles 2 to paint the picture. Also the Orcs didn't drink the demon blood, until the siege of Shattrah in our timeline(the last battle of that war). They had a massive war against the Gorian Empire. And even the Frostwolves had more aggressive members like Durotan's brothers.

Thrall never set out to completely pacify the Horde, either. This seems like an argument of extremes. The original Orcish clans of Draenor could be aggressive and territorial, but they could also be peaceful and in harmony with both their neighbors and the land itself. They weren't at their worst until united under a lie and set against a supposed enemy due to the treachery of their leaders. Before Shattrath the Orcs quite literally thought they were fighting for their lives against the Draenei. As for the war against the Gorian Ogres this was due to the Ogres enslaving and killing them with impunity - it is perhaps the first fully justified war the Orcs had in their history.

[Techno-Druid]

Chris Metzen is not around, so no... Thrall is done for good.

Metzen has stated that he will return to voice Thrall. He even returned to BlizzCon 2018 and asked when Thrall would return as Warchief, so I'm guessing Metzen is more than ready to return to voicing Thrall.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm not saying Thrall didn't make mistakes as a leader, he most certainly did. Enforcing austerity on the Horde to "make up" for the actions of the First and Second Wars was rather wrongheaded of him. But that's not really part and parcel of Thrall's attempt to reclaim Horde culture, though; and Thrall's regime also didn't enforce primitivism - he led the building of Orgrimmar, after all, the largest and most metropolitan center the Orcs had ever possessed. Thrall's resurrection of Shamanic tradition also had a very high approval rate among the Orcs, as well. Under Thrall the Orcs enjoyed something of a cultural renaissance - increased technology, the influx of knowledge and learning, a focus on tradition and history, etc. etc. One might say his focus on values as almost to a fault, given that he didn't rise to meet increasing opposition from the Alliance (as well as within his own court).

On the contrary, the guilt cult was core to what Thrall meant to accomplish, to the point where he founded the new orc lands in the first place was based on it. A culture-wide penance for what they did to what are now Alliance races that has morphed to the current absurdity where Saurfang, Baine and their ilk are more upset about what happens to their enemy than their own people and are ready to throw their own away for an abstraction that is never explained to us, let alone the characters. Thrall built Orgrimmar on the model of a human city, but had purposefully handicapped himself on securing the infrastructure to do it. We know from Heart of War that orcs were already starving in TBC. We know mages and the like can change the weather and even shamans and druids can speed up crop growth, but this is deliberately not done because of muh balance. The orcish view of this dimmed accordingly and even Thrall didn't think his people were beyond killing and flaying the night elven envoys. His ultimate step after all was his disillusionment with his failure and his passing of the torch to someone who better reflected the orcs.

Reclamation of Horde tradition is in general nonsense because the Horde purposefully has no tradition. The orcs do, but the Horde itself does not, it was specifically designed not to because the individual clan customs and quirks were in the way of KJ's plans of conquest. Thrall enforced his values on the orcs, hence putting them in Durotar to rely on handouts, but did not enforce his values on anyone else, hence Sylvanas, Gallywix and the TBC-era blood elves.

We don't really know what Saurfang might intend for the Horde, or how he might lead it should he do so. Thrall and Saurfang are quite different in both personality and temperament, I find it highly doubtful they would rule in much of a similar way. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has pretty much zero regard for the Horde beyond her own wishes - she's not a product of a Thrall's Horde anymore than Garrosh himself was.

Saurfang wants 'his Horde' back. We can assume that this isn't the First or Second War Horde given his stated feelings on this, it's definitely not Garrosh's Horde, though he totally failed to oppose that too, for someone who claimed to be ready to kill Garrosh, so we're left with Thrall's Horde. As already discussed, Thrall's Horde is an unstable failure that doesn't take into account those in it. Sylvanas may not have any regard for the Horde save as a utility, but even that trumps Saurfang dismissing rescue from the Horde, abandoning it, hoping its enemies prevail and more of his own die on the off-chance of getting the result he wants, and then having the sheer temerity to have a claim on what the Horde should or should not be.

Sylvanas follows on from Thrall because Thrall added the Forsaken, then did nothing at all to reach out to them or put them under control. They and the blood elves to a lesser extent were essentially a parallel faction. None of them ever took on Thrall or Saurfang style masochistic honor so obviously when Sylvanas was in charge they wouldn't push for something they never believed in nor had any motive to keep up. Saurfang I've already covered up top and even Thrall sees Garrosh as the answer to his own inadequacy.

[Aucald]

On the contrary, the guilt cult was core to what Thrall meant to accomplish, to the point where he founded the new orc lands in the first place was based on it. A culture-wide penance for what they did to what are now Alliance races that has morphed to the current absurdity where Saurfang, Baine and their ilk are more upset about what happens to their enemy than their own people and are ready to throw their own away for an abstraction that is never explained to us, let alone the characters. Thrall built Orgrimmar on the model of a human city, but had purposefully handicapped himself on securing the infrastructure to do it. We know from Heart of War that orcs were already starving in TBC. We know mages and the like can change the weather and even shamans and druids can speed up crop growth, but this is deliberately not done because of muh balance. The orcish view of this dimmed accordingly and even Thrall didn't think his people were beyond killing and flaying the night elven envoys. His ultimate step after all was his disillusionment with his failure and his passing of the torch to someone who better reflected the orcs.

I don't remember anything about "Heart of War" saying the Orcs as a whole were starving. The land they settled was desolate, yes; but pretty much everyone in Orgrimmar seems to be hale and hearty enough. It's not a land of plenty, but neither is it completely barren. You also have to consider the source of the condemnation of Thrall coming as it does from Krenna, an Orc with a chip on her shoulder large enough to be seen from space. I don't agree with either Thrall or Gorgonna's stance on racial penance for the Orcs, either; but this is also somewhat unrelated to Thrall's cultural reclamation of the Orcs' heritage.

Reclamation of Horde tradition is in general nonsense because the Horde purposefully has no tradition. The orcs do, but the Horde itself does not, it was specifically designed not to because the individual clan customs and quirks were in the way of KJ's plans of conquest. Thrall enforced his values on the orcs, hence putting them in Durotar to rely on handouts, but did not enforce his values on anyone else, hence Sylvanas, Gallywix and the TBC-era blood elves.

I mean the Orcish tradition - referring back to the Orcish Horde of the First and Second War, not the Horde of WoW. Thrall re-instituted Orcish customs that had been forgotten or fallen by the wayside due to the demonic corruption. The Om'riggor and Shamanism, primarily. The clan-structure was seen as a weakness that had kept the Orcs apart, and so was largely abandoned as an artifact of the past.

Saurfang wants 'his Horde' back. We can assume that this isn't the First or Second War Horde given his stated feelings on this, it's definitely not Garrosh's Horde, though he totally failed to oppose that too, for someone who claimed to be ready to kill Garrosh, so we're left with Thrall's Horde. As already discussed, Thrall's Horde is an unstable failure that doesn't take into account those in it. Sylvanas may not have any regard for the Horde save as a utility, but even that trumps Saurfang dismissing rescue from the Horde, abandoning it, hoping its enemies prevail and more of his own die on the off-chance of getting the result he wants, and then having the sheer temerity to have a claim on what the Horde should or should not be.

Saurfang was encountered deep into the Underhold with Thrall, so his opposition to Garrosh's Horde seem pretty evident. Beyond that, you're making a wide swath of unsupported or anecdotal assumptions about the possible leadership of Saurfang. This is also veering far and wide from the original point.

[sighy]

I'm not saying Thrall didn't make mistakes as a leader, he most certainly did. Enforcing austerity on the Horde to "make up" for the actions of the First and Second Wars was rather wrongheaded of him. But that's not really part and parcel of Thrall's attempt to reclaim Horde culture, though; and Thrall's regime also didn't enforce primitivism - he led the building of Orgrimmar, after all, the largest and most metropolitan center the Orcs had ever possessed. Thrall's resurrection of Shamanic tradition also had a very high approval rate among the Orcs, as well. Under Thrall the Orcs enjoyed something of a cultural renaissance - increased technology, the influx of knowledge and learning, a focus on tradition and history, etc. etc. One might say his focus on values as almost to a fault, given that he didn't rise to meet increasing opposition from the Alliance (as well as within his own court).



We don't really know what Saurfang might intend for the Horde, or how he might lead it should he do so. Thrall and Saurfang are quite different in both personality and temperament, I find it highly doubtful they would rule in much of a similar way. Sylvanas, on the other hand, has pretty much zero regard for the Horde beyond her own wishes - she's not a product of a Thrall's Horde anymore than Garrosh himself was.

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Thrall never set out to completely pacify the Horde, either. This seems like an argument of extremes. The original Orcish clans of Draenor could be aggressive and territorial, but they could also be peaceful and in harmony with both their neighbors and the land itself. They weren't at their worst until united under a lie and set against a supposed enemy due to the treachery of their leaders. Before Shattrath the Orcs quite literally thought they were fighting for their lives against the Draenei. As for the war against the Gorian Ogres this was due to the Ogres enslaving and killing them with impunity - it is perhaps the first fully justified war the Orcs had in their history.

Well the war broke out, because the Ogres attempted to take the throne of the elements. And even then you have Frostwolves pushing the Ogres out, in WoD, because they thought it was necessary. And to add to Super Dickmann's argument(which i agree with). There is no proof that Sylvanas doesn'T care for the Horde. Saurfang clings to a nostalgic view of blind idealism, which failed miserably.

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I don't remember anything about "Heart of War" saying the Orcs as a whole were starving. The land they settled was desolate, yes; but pretty much everyone in Orgrimmar seems to be hale and hearty enough. It's not a land of plenty, but neither is it completely barren. You also have to consider the source of the condemnation of Thrall coming as it does from Krenna, an Orc with a chip on her shoulder large enough to be seen from space. I don't agree with either Thrall or Gorgonna's stance on racial penance for the Orcs, either; but this is also somewhat unrelated to Thrall's cultural reclamation of the Orcs' heritage.



I mean the Orcish tradition - referring back to the Orcish Horde of the First and Second War, not the Horde of WoW. Thrall re-instituted Orcish customs that had been forgotten or fallen by the wayside due to the demonic corruption. The Om'riggor and Shamanism, primarily. The clan-structure was seen as a weakness that had kept the Orcs apart, and so was largely abandoned as an artifact of the past.



Saurfang was encountered deep into the Underhold with Thrall, so his opposition to Garrosh's Horde seem pretty evident. Beyond that, you're making a wide swath of unsupported or anecdotal assumptions about the possible leadership of Saurfang. This is also veering far and wide from the original point.

The shamanism was abandonned, because all the shamans lost their power, after Gul'dan did something with the scroll of the elements or what was it called. And the reason, for Garrosh to invade the Ashenvale, between WotLK and Cata was precisely because of mass starvation.

[tehdef]

Thralls short sighted decision to make Garrosh was the catalyst that eventually led the Horde down to this dark path.





He doesn’t deserve to be Warchief again.

Thrall nor Garrosh forced Sylvanas to use chemical warfare which killed both Horde and Alliance and raised them as undead.

Saurfang still has honor.

Sylvanas is a political statement, based purely on reactions such as Baine, Nathanos, and Saurfang. It shows 3 distinct types of people involved in war. Those who are active dissenters (Saurfang) and those who are fanatical followers (Nathanos), and those like Baine who reluctantly follow because they are shamed into helping (Sylvanas dangles helping the living over the dead in a cutscene and you can see Baines reaction, as he values life but wants the Horde to be the Horde again.)

Sylvanas is a snapshot of a tyrannical leader, akin to Hitler.

[tyrlaan]

On the contrary, the guilt cult was core to what Thrall meant to accomplish, to the point where he founded the new orc lands in the first place was based on it. A culture-wide penance for what they did to what are now Alliance races that has morphed to the current absurdity where Saurfang, Baine and their ilk are more upset about what happens to their enemy than their own people and are ready to throw their own away for an abstraction that is never explained to us, let alone the characters. Thrall built Orgrimmar on the model of a human city, but had purposefully handicapped himself on securing the infrastructure to do it. We know from Heart of War that orcs were already starving in TBC. We know mages and the like can change the weather and even shamans and druids can speed up crop growth, but this is deliberately not done because of muh balance. The orcish view of this dimmed accordingly and even Thrall didn't think his people were beyond killing and flaying the night elven envoys. His ultimate step after all was his disillusionment with his failure and his passing of the torch to someone who better reflected the orcs.

Reclamation of Horde tradition is in general nonsense because the Horde purposefully has no tradition. The orcs do, but the Horde itself does not, it was specifically designed not to because the individual clan customs and quirks were in the way of KJ's plans of conquest. Thrall enforced his values on the orcs, hence putting them in Durotar to rely on handouts, but did not enforce his values on anyone else, hence Sylvanas, Gallywix and the TBC-era blood elves.

Saurfang wants 'his Horde' back. We can assume that this isn't the First or Second War Horde given his stated feelings on this, it's definitely not Garrosh's Horde, though he totally failed to oppose that too, for someone who claimed to be ready to kill Garrosh, so we're left with Thrall's Horde. As already discussed, Thrall's Horde is an unstable failure that doesn't take into account those in it. Sylvanas may not have any regard for the Horde save as a utility, but even that trumps Saurfang dismissing rescue from the Horde, abandoning it, hoping its enemies prevail and more of his own die on the off-chance of getting the result he wants, and then having the sheer temerity to have a claim on what the Horde should or should not be.

Sylvanas follows on from Thrall because Thrall added the Forsaken, then did nothing at all to reach out to them or put them under control. They and the blood elves to a lesser extent were essentially a parallel faction. None of them ever took on Thrall or Saurfang style masochistic honor so obviously when Sylvanas was in charge they wouldn't push for something they never believed in nor had any motive to keep up. Saurfang I've already covered up top and even Thrall sees Garrosh as the answer to his own inadequacy.

I agree with a lot of what you say in general here, but would quibble with specific comments here and there:
"A culture-wide penance for what they did to what are now Alliance races that has morphed to the current absurdity where Saurfang, Baine and their ilk are more upset about what happens to their enemy than their own people and are ready to throw their own away for an abstraction that is never explained to us, let alone the characters. "
I disagree with the "caring about enemies more than allies" bit, but what you're talking about here is simply just honor. It's not an elusive concept at play that needs explanation. Honor is often easiest to lose based on how one treats their enemies.

"...it's definitely not Garrosh's Horde, though he totally failed to oppose that too..."
Aucald speaks to this as well, but Saurfang definitely opposed Garrosh. He actually started doing so back in WotLK before he was even Warchief.

"As already discussed, Thrall's Horde is an unstable failure that doesn't take into account those in it."
But since Saurfang is an orc, he probably sees Thrall's Horde the same way Thrall did. This doesn't necessarily mean it must be an unstable failure either; that's only true if you put another crappy leader in charge of the Horde. Thrall's vision of, as people like to call them, "honorable savages", isn't flawed. His complete failure to cultivate that is what was flawed.

"Thrall sees Garrosh as the answer to his own inadequacy."
I don't know if I agree with this or not. Honestly, I feel like Thrall elevated Garrosh because he felt bad about his daddy. Garrosh never really seemed to show signs he would be a good leader (despite us now learning that he allegedly is an amazeballs leader in other realities or whatever). I also think, since Thrall was not a good leader, that he doesn't know how to identify a good leader either.