Sylvanas didn’t ruin the Horde, Thrall Did...

[Aucald]

It's true that the Old Horde's sustainability was never checked since the land was already dying from fel magic and KJ's sabotage, but I don't believe it's too much of a leap to assume that a concentrated population would have more trouble sustaining itself on a hunter-gatherer style than several smaller, scattered ones, with the total numbers being the same. As for Azshara, I think that's mostly superstition as regards the ghosts, though I guess you could say the shamans would have issue with it. The Barrens though were massive, and while still not perfect, were still a lot more habitable than Durotar. It even had a bunch of farms there pre-Cata as I recall.

Durotar had farms pre-Cata as well - such as the Rocktusk and Tok'ren Farms near the security of Ogrimmar's gates. Post-Cata Durotar now also has a watershed which it previously lacked, which may slowly but surely have an effect on the originally dry and hardscrabble terrain.

I heavily disagree with your point regarding seeing Durotar restored through Shamanism. Durotar wasn't the way it was because of a calamity, that was its natural state. Changing it with Shamanism to be more hospitable, while something I'd recommend, though maybe replacing it with arcane from the belves since that has less of a chance of pissing the spirits off than forcing them to give you what you want, is not what Thrall's MO was and there's no indication in his or Gorgonna's dialogue that it was intended to improve, rather that the orcs would have to get used to and adapt to the hardship rather than take the easy way of taking what they need.

Gorgonna doesn't allude to it, but Thrall does in "The Shattering," saying that it was his hope that the Orcs would refine the land. Thrall seemed to feel as if the Orcs needed to find a kind of spiritual equilibrium with the land, that it and they were reflections of one another. Durotar suited the harsh nature of the Orcish soul as it was when he first brought them to Kalimdor, but the idea seemed to be that as the Orcs returned to their roots they would find their balance and the land itself would reflect that (with the blessing of both the ancestors and the Elemental spirits). We know that a powerful Wild spirit such as Aessina can spontaneously prompt wild growth of nature even in a land scarred by rampaging fire elementals, perhaps the Shamanic Spirit of the Wilds could've done similar to Durotar when the Orcs were ready to receive such a gift.

We know Saurfang was away from the Horde after Wrath, but I don't think we have any confirmation that was the case throughout Wrath and Cataclysm. And in any case, it does still mean that his role in dealing with Garrosh was minimal, despite his threats and later condemnation of him, which is what I was on about.

We know Saurfang was present at Warsong Hold in Cata because "The Shattering" features him there, and he doesn't return with Cairne and Garrosh back to Ogrimmar aboard their vessel as they leave. Saurfang had lost his son in the Northrend campaign and was basically retiring in Warsong Hold a broken and grieving man. He's out of focus for the entirety of Cata and the majority of MoP. It's the oath he made to Garrosh during the early days of WotLK that actually stirs him from torpor, as at Thrall's behest he leaves the Hold and travels to Orgrimmar to enact his promise to the younger Hellscream to end him if he started down the path of Grom. His role was minimal because he was an ocean away from the heart of the conflict, manning an essentially derelict fortification in his dotage. I doubt he was receiving intelligence reports from the Horde as it was busy tearing itself apart, and was probably largely unaware of what was happening (or honestly may not have cared given his mental state at the time).

[Grazrug]

We know Saurfang was present at Warsong Hold in Cata because "The Shattering" features him there, and he doesn't return with Cairne and Garrosh back to Ogrimmar aboard their vessel as they leave. Saurfang had lost his son in the Northrend campaign and was basically retiring in Warsong Hold a broken and grieving man. He's out of focus for the entirety of Cata and the majority of MoP. It's the oath he made to Garrosh during the early days of WotLK that actually stirs him from torpor, as at Thrall's behest he leaves the Hold and travels to Orgrimmar to enact his promise to the younger Hellscream to end him if he started down the path of Grom. His role was minimal because he was an ocean away from the heart of the conflict, manning an essentially derelict fortification in his dotage. I doubt he was receiving intelligence reports from the Horde as it was busy tearing itself apart, and was probably largely unaware of what was happening (or honestly may not have cared given his mental state at the time).

If that's the summarisation of his Character than he should just step on a Lego. A broken, old suicidal man with an Axe is not fit to lead anyone.

[Aucald]

If that's the summarisation of his Character than he should just step on a Lego. A broken, old suicidal man with an Axe is not fit to lead anyone.

Perhaps not - I never really claimed he was. I don't think Saurfang has an interest in leading the Horde, either; he's too old for the job and probably feels as though he wouldn't deserve it. He may turn out to end Sylvanas' reign by force of arms, but I would surprised if he took up the seat afterward.

[Super Dickmann]

Durotar had farms pre-Cata as well - such as the Rocktusk and Tok'ren Farms near the security of Ogrimmar's gates. Post-Cata Durotar now also has a watershed which it previously lacked, which may slowly but surely have an effect on the originally dry and hardscrabble terrain.

The first part's true, but that's mostly in spite of Durotar being crap rather than because it is particularly suited for it. Post-Cata it's even worse since until Sylvanas gentrified the slums the goblins were messing with the water.

Gorgonna doesn't allude to it, but Thrall does in "The Shattering," saying that it was his hope that the Orcs would refine the land. Thrall seemed to feel as if the Orcs needed to find a kind of spiritual equilibrium with the land, that it and they were reflections of one another. Durotar suited the harsh nature of the Orcish soul as it was when he first brought them to Kalimdor, but the idea seemed to be that as the Orcs returned to their roots they would find their balance and the land itself would reflect that (with the blessing of both the ancestors and the Elemental spirits). We know that a powerful Wild spirit such as Aessina can spontaneously prompt wild growth of nature even in a land scarred by rampaging fire elementals, perhaps the Shamanic Spirit of the Wilds could've done similar to Durotar when the Orcs were ready to receive such a gift.

If that is the plan, then it's still very dubious since it's still putting his people through unnecessary hardship in order to effectively teach them a lesson, yet without the wherewithal to prepare them for that life. The orcs were still mostly hunter-gatherers despite living in a city and what agriculture we do see is really token. This is something we see with the Horde quite often actually. Much more of their outposts are explicitly military camps who's implied form of sustenance is raiding. Thrall didn't change that, so if what you suggest is true, then he was putting the cart before the horse and it was still laced with the notion that they had to suffer at some stage.

It's the oath he made to Garrosh during the early days of WotLK that actually stirs him from torpor, as at Thrall's behest he leaves the Hold and travels to Orgrimmar to enact his promise to the younger Hellscream to end him if he started down the path of Grom. His role was minimal because he was an ocean away from the heart of the conflict, manning an essentially derelict fortification in his dotage. I doubt he was receiving intelligence reports from the Horde as it was busy tearing itself apart, and was probably largely unaware of what was happening (or honestly may not have cared given his mental state at the time).

While what you say is likely true, that fails to cast Saurfang in all that positive a light, however understandable. Taking on a duty then ditching it and afterwards appointing yourself responsible for sorting out 'your' Horde a second time is a supreme form of egotism and irresponsibility it alike.

[Diggy]

Why stop at Thrall? It's all Arthas' fault. Let's just blame him. Poor little innocent Sylvy wouldn't be undead if not for him. Heck let's just go back to Sargeras - if he didn't exist, orcs would never travl to Azeroth and Lich king woulnd't be a thing. IT would reuqire some mental gymnastic but Sylvanas fans are pros, they can handle it.

[Darth-Piekus]

tyrannical
/tɪˈranɪk(ə)l,tʌɪˈranɪk(ə)l/Submit
adjective
exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.

Please explain to me how bombing your own troops, forcing the horde to do questionable actions and burning alive adults and children is not tyrannical?

She's exercising her power in cruel way, or does war and killing innocents just go straight over your head? I've given you an example, you're ignoring it saying it's nothing to do with the definition. On the contrary it's a perfect example.



Has the Horde ever been more spilt since Garrosh? Ofcourse 100% of the Horde are right behind the Banshee Queen. Lets just ignore all the future quests that are ahead..



This is coming from the person who didn't know a tyrant was cruel. To address your point, how can I cherry pick? I've got a definition, I've given you evidence and you dismiss it like some flat-earth imbecile confronted with NASA images.



I see where you're coming from, it's a shame I addressed other definitions that pin-point Sylvanas as a tyrant. You're just ignoring everything I say now like some blind fanboy.



You really need to take off your rose tinted Sylvanas glasses, far too many fanboys in here defending the un-defendable. There's nothing wrong with Sylvanas being a bad guy, a tyrant or whatever. It's the fact that you're ignoring everything in front of you just to paint a character you hold in high esteem as something she's not.

I mean lets take another definition,



This will be my last reply to you on this thread as your fanboyism is becoming rather tiresome. It's impossible to argue with someone like you who will object to the un-objectable, I mean you didn't even know cruelty was a part of a tyrants definition and you question me on my definitions. Hilarious!

I've shown you how she's oppressive, cruel to her own people. She's killed her troops, started wars and burned alive adults and children. Crimes against humanity. She's a tyrant you'll just have to learn to accept it when she falls even further from grace.

Trust me my friend. Many fanboys will cry rivers of tears when Sylvannas faces the same end and you will probably hear the same bullshit excuse about Blizzard making the character do an 180 just like they did with Garrosh. I just hope that once Sylvannas ends that her toxic fanbase will end with her.

[tyrlaan]

Perhaps not - I never really claimed he was. I don't think Saurfang has an interest in leading the Horde, either; he's too old for the job and probably feels as though he wouldn't deserve it. He may turn out to end Sylvanas' reign by force of arms, but I would surprised if he took up the seat afterward.

Agree. I really can't see Saurfang as warchief or even wanting it. Honestly, I just want them to bring Vol'jin back

[Grazrug]

Trust me my friend. Many fanboys will cry rivers of tears when Sylvannas faces the same end and you will probably hear the same bullshit excuse about Blizzard making the character do an 180 just like they did with Garrosh. I just hope that once Sylvannas ends that her toxic fanbase will end with her.

Lmao it's her haters who bring her into the discussion, even when nobody else brings her up. It's pretty amusing to watch.

[Aucald]

The first part's true, but that's mostly in spite of Durotar being crap rather than because it is particularly suited for it. Post-Cata it's even worse since until Sylvanas gentrified the slums the goblins were messing with the water.

Most of the water in the Goblin slums seems to be standing pools - the streaming water of Orgrimmar seems to be in and around the Valley of Wisdom (untouched and still quite fishable).

If that is the plan, then it's still very dubious since it's still putting his people through unnecessary hardship in order to effectively teach them a lesson, yet without the wherewithal to prepare them for that life. The orcs were still mostly hunter-gatherers despite living in a city and what agriculture we do see is really token. This is something we see with the Horde quite often actually. Much more of their outposts are explicitly military camps who's implied form of sustenance is raiding. Thrall didn't change that, so if what you suggest is true, then he was putting the cart before the horse and it was still laced with the notion that they had to suffer at some stage.

I think the fact that the in-game representations of land aren't quite to scale glosses over a great deal of land that would otherwise be devoted to agriculture or more boring pursuits. One farm is probably the stand-in for dozens in close proximity. Military camps are more game-related and thus more evident in the region's in-game representation.

While what you say is likely true, that fails to cast Saurfang in all that positive a light, however understandable. Taking on a duty then ditching it and afterwards appointing yourself responsible for sorting out 'your' Horde a second time is a supreme form of egotism and irresponsibility it alike.

That's pretty cold. The man lost everything he had left in the Northrend campaign, and was even forced to fight his own son's undead form in the cruelest turn of events possible. I can understand Saurfang feeling pretty broken by all that, he almost cracks during the event at Icecrown (displaying even that much emotionality is a pretty significant sign from an Orc). Chalking it up to egoism or irresponsibility seems to underscore that you have absolutely no empathy or sympathy for the man's plight, for no real discernible reason other than hatred of the character. I can understand why Saurfang withdrew from the limelight under the circumstances - and "Old Soldier" goes far to show that the loss of Dranosh still weighs heavily on him to this day.

[Super Dickmann]

I think the fact that the in-game representations of land aren't quite to scale glosses over a great deal of land that would otherwise be devoted to agriculture or more boring pursuits. One farm is probably the stand-in for dozens in close proximity. Military camps are more game-related and thus more evident in the region's in-game representation.

While this is true, I don't think we can use that to infer that the orcs have developed significant agriculture. When Blizzard want to tell us a land is lush and arable, they show it. Elwynn, Eversong, Stormsong more recently, the big tracts of arable land even in Borean Tundra of all things. The scale is different, but the nature itself isn't as much. Pound for pound, the Alliance have more civilian areas.

That's pretty cold. The man lost everything he had left in the Northrend campaign, and was even forced to fight his own son's undead form in the cruelest turn of events possible. I can understand Saurfang feeling pretty broken by all that, he almost cracks during the event at Icecrown (displaying even that much emotionality is a pretty significant sign from an Orc). Chalking it up to egoism or irresponsibility seems to underscore that you have absolutely no empathy or sympathy for the man's plight, for no real discernible reason other than hatred of the character. I can understand why Saurfang withdrew from the limelight under the circumstances - and "Old Soldier" goes far to show that the loss of Dranosh still weighs heavily on him to this day.

You misunderstand me. I acknowledged earlier that Saurfang not being there to overthrow Garrosh isn't condemnible unless he also has two positions - one that Garrosh is in the wrong and acting like he did is grounds for immediate Mak'gora and second that he alone knows what the Horde is about and has the moral authority to bring it about. Given that he did the former in Wrath and A Good War and the latter in 8.1 and Lost Honor, that's why I find him an irresponsible egotist. And in a fashion that's much more realistic and thus dislikable. For one, there's sparing Malfurion, despite knowing he's killed hundreds up to this point and being well aware that he will continue killing them going forward. Saurfang has killed many night elves already and enjoyed it and good on him for it. There's no moral difference between killing Malfurion and killing any of them in a moral sense. Yet he declines to kill Malfurion explicitly because it makes him feel righteous, knowing that Malf will kill more Horde troops and he feels good about it because in his own words "I will deal with it when the time comes." He has no remorse or empathy, he places his own momentary satisfaction over the people he, as the orcish leader, is responsible for. His actions enable the death of the people he's meant to protect to please his own ego.

That itself is outmatched by the whole bit with Memeboi. Memeboi is set up to parallel Dranosh, he's someone Saurfang creates a bond with and who we're lead to believe, within Old Soldier, is what makes Saurfang fight again until Sylvanas uses the Blight. Except with Lost Honor, we know that's not true. Saurfang was already throwing the fight and hoping Anduin would win, in the hopes that this will mean Sylvanas would lose, long before that. He effectively allowed Memeboi to believe a lie while Saurfang was perfectly willing to accept his death and that of everyone else in that fight that would stem from the Horde losing on the off chance that the person he doesn't like would die. The person he mentally considered challenging to Mak'gora if she ever did anything like this. But he shirks responsibility again, enables the enemy and hopes more soldiers will die so that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty.

Why? Because let's face it, he doesn't trust the Horde. He rejects his rescuers and he doesn't tell you shit even when you defy Sylvanas to side with him. He doesn't admit to you Anduin freed him or answer what you might be wondering regarding the evidence you found. Even then, he doesn't trust you. Who does he trust? Anduin and the Alliance. Only with outside intervention can he bring back 'his' Horde, the meaning of which he has appointed himself to as the sole arbiter. The dude's the kind of petty coward and hypocrite that's rarely shown in this kind of game, and for all the depth the writing has as a result, the fact that someone as abhorrent when you spend a few minutes thinking about what he actually does is cast as the hero annoys me.

[tyrlaan]

That itself is outmatched by the whole bit with Memeboi. Memeboi is set up to parallel Dranosh, he's someone Saurfang creates a bond with and who we're lead to believe, within Old Soldier, is what makes Saurfang fight again until Sylvanas uses the Blight. Except with Lost Honor, we know that's not true. Saurfang was already throwing the fight and hoping Anduin would win, in the hopes that this will mean Sylvanas would lose, long before that. He effectively allowed Memeboi to believe a lie while Saurfang was perfectly willing to accept his death and that of everyone else in that fight that would stem from the Horde losing on the off chance that the person he doesn't like would die. The person he mentally considered challenging to Mak'gora if she ever did anything like this. But he shirks responsibility again, enables the enemy and hopes more soldiers will die so that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty.

Why? Because let's face it, he doesn't trust the Horde. He rejects his rescuers and he doesn't tell you shit even when you defy Sylvanas to side with him. He doesn't admit to you Anduin freed him or answer what you might be wondering regarding the evidence you found. Even then, he doesn't trust you. Who does he trust? Anduin and the Alliance. Only with outside intervention can he bring back 'his' Horde, the meaning of which he has appointed himself to as the sole arbiter. The dude's the kind of petty coward and hypocrite that's rarely shown in this kind of game, and for all the depth the writing has as a result, the fact that someone as abhorrent when you spend a few minutes thinking about what he actually does is cast as the hero annoys me.

I don't know if you're operating with 8.1 knowledge, so maybe my ignorance of 8.1 lore leads to my following commentary:

Do we know that Lost Honor means he already planned to try to lose the battle? I feel this is very much not the case. Saurfang could easily have been reinvigorated or recentered or whatever after talking to Zappyboi, but fragile enough in his standing that when Sylvanas tossed out the blight he was done. This is the point when he decides to stay outside and, in my opinion, when the hope that Anduin will take out Sylvanas is born.

To the second bit, as Horde players we haven't seen him outside of his cell yet, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.


Also, may I please ask if 8.1 stuff is being pulled into this conversation that folks either use spoiler tags or refrain from doing so? Thanks!

[Super Dickmann]

I don't know if you're operating with 8.1 knowledge, so maybe my ignorance of 8.1 lore leads to my following commentary:
Do we know that Lost Honor means he already planned to try to lose the battle? I feel this is very much not the case. Saurfang could easily have been reinvigorated or recentered or whatever after talking to Zappyboi, but fragile enough in his standing that when Sylvanas tossed out the blight he was done. This is the point when he decides to stay outside and, in my opinion, when the hope that Anduin will take out Sylvanas is born.
Also, may I please ask if 8.1 stuff is being pulled into this conversation that folks either use spoiler tags or refrain from doing so? Thanks!

I am operating from a 8.1 perspective, but I'll keep it out of my reply to you.

The part where Saurfang could kill Anduin but doesn't and later tells him it's because he hoped he would kill Sylvanas and thus by proxy those in the courtyard including his surrogate son who believes Saurfang is fighting in his defense is in the cinematic. When he hits him with the flat of his axe instead of cleaving him. This is before Sylvanas drops the Blight and it's one of those moments where Blizzard unintentionally makes a character a lot more unlikable than intended.

[tyrlaan]

I am operating from a 8.1 perspective, but I'll keep it out of my reply to you.

The part where Saurfang could kill Anduin but doesn't and later tells him it's because he hoped he would kill Sylvanas and thus by proxy those in the courtyard including his surrogate son who believes Saurfang is fighting in his defense is in the cinematic. When he hits him with the flat of his axe instead of cleaving him. This is before Sylvanas drops the Blight and it's one of those moments where Blizzard unintentionally makes a character a lot more unlikable than intended.

Damn, now I'm going to have to actually replay the scenario with the next alt I bring up through BfA, because I could've sworn the blight was before he faces Anduin.


To that final point, I suspect Blizzard does that quite a lot as a result of not exactly trying to write the deepest of stories. As a side effect, people who do think about the lore deeper than the bare minimum to click on the right pixels find a decent amount of problems beneath the surface.

[Aucald]

You misunderstand me. I acknowledged earlier that Saurfang not being there to overthrow Garrosh isn't condemnible unless he also has two positions - one that Garrosh is in the wrong and acting like he did is grounds for immediate Mak'gora and second that he alone knows what the Horde is about and has the moral authority to bring it about. Given that he did the former in Wrath and A Good War and the latter in 8.1 and Lost Honor, that's why I find him an irresponsible egotist. And in a fashion that's much more realistic and thus dislikable. For one, there's sparing Malfurion, despite knowing he's killed hundreds up to this point and being well aware that he will continue killing them going forward. Saurfang has killed many night elves already and enjoyed it and good on him for it. There's no moral difference between killing Malfurion and killing any of them in a moral sense. Yet he declines to kill Malfurion explicitly because it makes him feel righteous, knowing that Malf will kill more Horde troops and he feels good about it because in his own words "I will deal with it when the time comes." He has no remorse or empathy, he places his own momentary satisfaction over the people he, as the orcish leader, is responsible for. His actions enable the death of the people he's meant to protect to please his own ego.

He doesn't necessarily decline to kill Malfurion - he hesitates, and then the choice is removed entirely from him. You can blame him for that hesitation as many do, but this isn't quite the same as him flat-out declining to do so out of so-called egotism. His later reply to Sylvanas is pithy because of the situation she put him in (pretty much equally as stupidly as Saurfang's hesitation), but we know he didn't actually get to make a final choice either way before Tyrande put him in a star-shard death necklace. Malfurion's death also isn't necessary to complete the plan as he understood it and Sylvanas has laid it out earlier in "A Good War" - it's icing on the cake, sure; but the taking and holding of Teldrassil is the foundation of the plan. The original plan would've ensured Malfurion couldn't have been a great danger to the Horde without endangering his own captured people in Teldrassil, but Sylvanas' later overthrow of that plan is what makes Malfurion the threat he becomes (since Teldrassil can no longer be leveraged as a check against him). Sylvanas is equally as responsible for the plight the Horde finds itself in, if not moreso through incensing the Kaldorei through needless mass murder.

Though I'm not sure why we're discussing BfA in a conversation that was original about Thrall's reclamation of the Horde.

That itself is outmatched by the whole bit with Memeboi. Memeboi is set up to parallel Dranosh, he's someone Saurfang creates a bond with and who we're lead to believe, within Old Soldier, is what makes Saurfang fight again until Sylvanas uses the Blight. Except with Lost Honor, we know that's not true. Saurfang was already throwing the fight and hoping Anduin would win, in the hopes that this will mean Sylvanas would lose, long before that. He effectively allowed Memeboi to believe a lie while Saurfang was perfectly willing to accept his death and that of everyone else in that fight that would stem from the Horde losing on the off chance that the person he doesn't like would die. The person he mentally considered challenging to Mak'gora if she ever did anything like this. But he shirks responsibility again, enables the enemy and hopes more soldiers will die so that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty.

Zekhan's influence was what made Saurfang opt not to commit suicide by army - it's not like he made some form implicit pact or deal with Zekhan beyond living another day "without honor." What Zekhan does or doesn't believe is immaterial, though Zekhan's readiness to join Saurfang speaks that he's not necessarily 100% on board with Sylvanas either (buttressed further by what we know from the 8.1 scenario). He doesn't consider himself worthy to challenge Sylvanas because he's complicit in her doings, the same as he felt in "A Good War." He does consider the Alliance, specifically Anduin, worthy though - they're the wronged party, after all.

Why? Because let's face it, he doesn't trust the Horde. He rejects his rescuers and he doesn't tell you shit even when you defy Sylvanas to side with him. He doesn't admit to you Anduin freed him or answer what you might be wondering regarding the evidence you found. Even then, he doesn't trust you. Who does he trust? Anduin and the Alliance. Only with outside intervention can he bring back 'his' Horde, the meaning of which he has appointed himself to as the sole arbiter. The dude's the kind of petty coward and hypocrite that's rarely shown in this kind of game, and for all the depth the writing has as a result, the fact that someone as abhorrent when you spend a few minutes thinking about what he actually does is cast as the hero annoys me.

I think you're bending both logic and the story itself backwards to the breaking point to try to paint a picture that isn't necessary true, in both respect to the characters in question as well as the surrounding narrative. He rejects his rescuers because he had no desire to return to Sylvanas' Horde implicitly or explicitly - which is exactly what he tells you when you're there the first time. He knows you're not there to retrieve him in any case, which means Sylvanas has no interest in him being free either. He also doesn't ask Anduin to free him - in fact he threatens the man almost straight out when asked why he didn't kill Anduin at Lordaeron, which isn't indicative that he respects or even cares for Anduin at all. He tells Anduin what he wants when asked - he doesn't ask to go free, and he doesn't ask to be allowed to restore it, he doesn't expect to be released. The implication that he's somehow complicit with the Alliance is a charge that doesn't stand up unless you've already decided it is so for external reasons.

There is nothing cowardly in Saurfang's character. As for being hypocritical, yes, that's true enough - although compared to the hypocrisy of Sylvanas this is like comparing the light of the moon to Sylvanas' sun. If Saurfang annoys you then Sylvanas should probably leave you frothing in abject rage.

[Razaron]

Trust me my friend. Many fanboys will cry rivers of tears when Sylvannas faces the same end and you will probably hear the same bullshit excuse about Blizzard making the character do an 180 just like they did with Garrosh. I just hope that once Sylvannas ends that her toxic fanbase will end with her.

Cheers for the support, a lot of Sylvanas fanatics in here!

[Grazrug]

He doesn't necessarily decline to kill Malfurion - he hesitates, and then the choice is removed entirely from him. You can blame him for that hesitation as many do, but this isn't quite the same as him flat-out declining to do so out of so-called egotism. His later reply to Sylvanas is pity because of the situation she put him in (pretty much equally as stupidly as Saurfang's hesitation), but we know he didn't actually get to make a final choice either way before Tyrande put him in a star-shard death necklace. Malfurion's death also isn't necessary to complete the plan as he understood it and Sylvanas has laid it out earlier in "A Good War" - it's icing on the cake, sure; but the taking and holding of Teldrassil is the foundation of the plan. The original plan would've ensured Malfurion couldn't have been a great danger to the Horde without endangering his own captured people in Teldrassil, but Sylvanas' later overthrow of that plan is what makes Malfurion the threat he becomes (since Teldrassil can no longer be leveraged as a check against him). Sylvanas is equally as responsible for the plight the Horde finds itself in, if not moreso through incensing the Kaldorei through needless mass murder.

Though I'm not sure why we're discussing BfA in a conversation that was original about Thrall's reclamation of the Horde.



Zekhan's influence was what made Saurfang opt not to commit suicide by army - it's not like he made some form implicit pact or deal with Zekhan beyond living another day "without honor." What Zekhan does or doesn't believe is immaterial, though Zekhan's readiness to join Saurfang speaks that he's not necessarily 100% on board with Sylvanas either (buttressed further by what we know from the 8.1 scenario). He doesn't consider himself worthy to challenge Sylvanas because he's complicit in her doings, the same as he felt in "A Good War." He does consider the Alliance, specifically Anduin, worthy though - they're the wronged party, after all.



I think you're bending both logic and the story itself backwards to the breaking point to try to paint a picture that isn't necessary true, in both respect to the characters in question as well as the surrounding narrative. He rejects his rescuers because he had no desire to return to Sylvanas' Horde implicitly or explicitly - which is exactly what he tells you when you're there the first time. He knows you're not there to retrieve him in any case, which means Sylvanas has no interest in him being free either. He also doesn't ask Anduin to free him - in fact he threatens the man almost straight out when asked why he didn't kill Anduin at Lordaeron, which isn't indicative that he respects or even cares for Anduin at all. He tells Anduin what he wants when asked - he doesn't ask to go free, and he doesn't ask to be allowed to restore it, he doesn't expect to be released. The implication that he's somehow complicit with the Alliance is a charge that doesn't stand up unless you've already decided it is so for external reasons.

There is nothing cowardly in Saurfang's character. As for being hypocritical, yes, that's true enough - although compared to the hypocrisy of Sylvanas this is like comparing the light of the moon to Sylvanas' sun. If Saurfang annoys you then Sylvanas should probably leave you frothing in abject rage.

Not really. Sylvanas is evil, yes but it is easy to work with that. But Saurfang tries painting himself the hero and lies into our faces, while budding up with the faction leader of the Alliance at the same time. Not caring about the dead people of the a horde who bite the dust because of his crappy decisions in wot. Aka sparing malfurion. That's makes a hypocrite and much worse. This man has as much dirt onOrcs: him but still blizzard sets him up as Vol'jin 2.0. Saurfang ultimately wants to see his own team fail and fall for no other reason but MUH honurrrr, and out of spite against sylvanas. He is as pathetic as Baine at this point.

[cparle87]

Both the alliance and the horde have two opposite mentalities within:

Horde has the thrall/cairne/vol'jin spiritual tribal brotherhood "take only as much as we need" side, and the bloodlust warmongering genocidal conquering garrosh/grommash/sylvanas side.

Alliance has the diplomatic/cooperative/greater cause anduin/velen/malfurion side, and the exterminate all threats graymane/tyrande/darkiron side.

Obviously its just a simple generalization but to be honest it is almost as if there are 4 "factions/mentalities" in WoW.

Horde is even more simple than that. We have the Thrall/Cairne/Vol'jin side which believes lasting peace between the two factions is possible if everyone keeps working at it. And the Garrosh/Sylvanas side that any peace will eventually fail no matter what so why bother and the best thing to do is try to subjugate the other side so they can never be a threat again.

Saurfang tried to argue that the camaraderie between the factions gained from fighting the Legion would keep the peace. Sylvanas asks for how long? Eventually the heroes who fought in the war will pass and the next generation will come. They'll be raised on stories of the genocidal orcs/internment camps/etc other past atrocities both sides have committed. And they'll think their elders are fools for not doing everything in their power to keep it from happening again.

[Aucald]

Not really. Sylvanas is evil, yes but it is easy to work with that. But Saurfang tries painting himself the hero and lies into our faces while budding up with the faction leader of the Alliance at the same time. Not caring about the dead people of the a horde who bite the dust because of his crappy decisions in wot. Aka sparing malfurion. That's being a hypocrite and much worse. This man has as much dirt on him but still blizzard sets him up as Vol'jin 2.0

"Evil" isn't something that is easy to work with, nor should it really be desirable for most. Saurfang also never calls himself a hero, not does he lie (either to us or anyone else) that I'm aware of. He's not "buddying up" with anyone in the Alliance, either; unless threatening to kill people has become an overture of friendship all of a sudden.

People also die in wars - Saurfang would know that better than most. He has a long history of sending people to potentially die, up to and including himself. I don't think Malfurion alone is some kind of calamity for the Horde - he's powerful, yes, but if he were the sole thing preventing a Horde victory then the Horde would've already lost. As with the above, I'd also argue that Saurfang explicitly spared Malfurion.

[Destinas]

Thrall rectified his poor choices by not only helping Vol'jin's revolution, not only facing Garrosh in Siege of Orgrimmar, and not only fighting the Iron Horde on AU Draenor, but also landing the killing blow on Garrosh in AU Nagrand.

However, it has always been written that Thrall's decisions were the best at the time. He chose Garrosh because of his bravery in Northrend, but we quickly saw that the young Hellscream couldn't handle any huge decisions to be a good, fair leader. Thrall chose to have Gallywix remain the leader of the Bilgewater Cartel, despite the fact that the entire cartel had been against this for much of the Goblin starting zone - the first quests are about gaining popularity to dethrone him. Thrall also brought forth the idea to have Vol'jin as the Warchief after Garrosh, which was debatable as a good decision or not in the forums (and still is).

The current problems aren't all Thrall's fault, but he didn't help it. Sylvanas, Gallywix, and Garrosh are not blameless in their decisions themselves.
-Gallywix was given a second chance, and still does morally dubious stuff with his cartel for profit and fame. He didn't need to bring up Azerite to Sylvanas at all.
-Garrosh didn't need to make half the decisions he did in Cataclysm and Pandaria - it didn't even make coherent sense at the time, considering he was angered by the corruption of the orcs, yet immediately chose to be corrupted by the heart of Y'Shaarj in SoO. Even then, Garrosh was given a second chance after his trial, and he didn't need to escape and make the Iron Horde.
-Sylvanas was given a second chance after the Wrathgate/Battle for Undercity, and immediately began to use her blight in Gilneas (after Garrosh specifically tells her not to). She didn't need to attack the Alliance, yet she chose to (with her original idea being Stormwind, then changing it to Teldrassil after the discovery of Azerite).

In the end, Thrall hasn't been in the picture for a while. He wasn't even a very important part of WoD, with his only major contribution being Garrosh's death. His only major contributions in Legion were making a bridge on the Broken Shore, and providing Doomfist to enhancement shamans. All the other characters were given a chance to do what they can with the Horde now, and they are making poor choices themselves.

[Grazrug]

"Evil" isn't something that is easy to work with, nor should it really be desirable for most. Saurfang also never calls himself a hero, not does he lie (either to us or anyone else) that I'm aware of. He's not "buddying up" with anyone in the Alliance, either; unless threatening to kill people has become an overture of friendship all of a sudden.

People also die in wars - Saurfang would know that better than most. He has a long history of sending people to potentially die, up to and including himself. I don't think Malfurion alone is some kind of calamity for the Horde - he's powerful, yes, but if he were the sole thing preventing a Horde victory then the Horde would've already lost. As with the above, I'd also argue that Saurfang explicitly spared Malfurion.

Malfurion and all demigod like characters alike in the blue team. They can roflstomp entire armies which is why killing malfurion was crucial for the strategy. But the coward Saurfang failed the most simple of orders and now countless Horde's will die while getting dragged down the earth or laser burned by dark moon light. And it's all the fault of Saurfang.

https://youtu.be/HLKS0Jq9U_E