Other games teach you to be patient. What does WoW teach you? - WoW's community rant

[StrawberryZebra]

In this game (for example) at level 59 you only get 2-3% experience from a 1 HOUR session of gameplay.
Reaching level 60 is a 50 DAY commitment...if you can only play 1 hour a day. You are working for something that you will only be rewarded...almost 2 month after.
And in this "1 hour session" you are not "half AFK", you need to constantly press buttons and actually play the game non stop for an hour.

The entire personality of this game's community is "patient".

Honestly, that sounds like a game that it extremely disrespectful of it's players time and thrives exclusively on how much of your free time it can consume. Or else some free-to-play shovelware that is deliberately elongating it's play time in order to try make you cough up for boosters and such.

It's more indicative of developer ineptitude than it is of their expertise.

There are far more worthwhile endevours I could undertake in the same time frame. Hell, I learned enough Python to be competant with it in less than 50 hours.

The design of a game shapes its community?

This is the only interesting point you've brought up.

On the one hand the design of a game directly influences the types of players who are interested in it. Be that because it's the genre they like, or has mechanics they enjoy etc. Naturally that directly influences the community that will initially form around the game. From there on however, what that community wants and requests of their game can in turn shape the future of the game, which of course changes the community of players which again will shape the game and so on and so forth.

Both help shape the other. Neither would exist without the other.

Kids nowdays grow up with those kind of games, while we (those of us who are around 30 nowdays) grew up with Super Mario games you couldn't save at all and shooters that gave genuinely no rewards at all besides the glory of the win. It's not really strange as much as we find it sad to see.

Super Mario Bros is, at it's core, a very short game. Even if you're not speed running it, you an complete the entire game in under an hour. Becoming skilled enough to complete the game in a single sitting however was a much longer term goal.

As for shooters, all the progress you made was strictly personal. You learned the maps better, where the weapon spawns were, how to move and shoot better and so on. There wasn't a strict "reward" for winning, but winning WAS the reward for your skill.

Kids these days grow up with games like Minecraft, which requires you to have patience and require planning to get anywhere. Or games like Pokemon, or Mario which also require you to have some form of patience. The whole "Instant Gratification" schtick is mostly limited to online mobile games and while they are a problem, kids aren't the only or the intended audience for those experiences.

The Guilty Gear series actually punishes you for being too defensive

It punishes you for being too passive, not too defensive. You lose your Tension if you're constantly staying too far away from your opponent and not attacking, otherwise it would incorrectly punish Axl for his normal game plan, Baiken for her gameplan and Potemkin for being, well... Potemkin.

And let's face it, if you're on the defensive against some characters (Chipp or Milia), you're going to have to use your meter to escape at some point, otherwise you're going to be stuck in the corner having to eat mix up after mix up. It still requires some form of interaction with your opponent, so you should almost never get hit by the penalty even in the most dire of situations.

[Deleted]

This is the only interesting point you've brought up.

On the one hand the design of a game directly influences the types of players who are interested in it. Be that because it's the genre they like, or has mechanics they enjoy etc. Naturally that directly influences the community that will initially form around the game. From there on however, what that community wants and requests of their game can in turn shape the future of the game, which of course changes the community of players which again will shape the game and so on and so forth.

Both help shape the other. Neither would exist without the other.

I agree completely.

So far, i think, more than 60% of my interactions with the WoW community have been horrible.
People leave, rage, dont help eachother, dont stop and smell the flowers.
Its a mess.
I think long time WoW players have lost sight on what it means to play a game.
Is about fun IMO, and long time players are confusing rewards with fun. Or rather "to have fun i must get a reward fast".
Or even better "to justify doing this activity in game i must get the reward"

Nothing wrong with rewards...but WoW is blinding its playerbase with too many fast rewards and its confusing the playerbase IMO

[Nightstalker]

Were can I sign up for classes for "Mental Gymnastics"?

[Deleted]

Were can I sign up for classes for "Mental Gymnastics"?

Im always like this
90% of what i say are "theories" or "mental gymnastics"

Im always hypothesizing...for fun.

[javierdsv]

The math is simple:

Subscription based = Time efficiency is required.

Also, a lot of old timers have a job. So on top of covering an addiction, that nowadays is more like a second job, using your time as best as possible is a requirement. Dealing with "slow" or "bad" people cannot be afforded. That's why things like raider.io exist.

For those who just like "to have fun", there are a thousand other activities in game. (And one of them is not playing WoW).

[The Stormbringer]

Having come to Wow from another game in the days before Cata, it was rather laughable to see how fast even then people leveled. We used to mock Wow as having gone the 'easy button' route.

What you say about 'instant gratification' isn't a Wow-only problem... its a societal problem, where people have to see results NOW at any cost.

It's been a steady shift, not something that happened over night. Increased inter-connectivity and accessibility via the internet, cellphones, scanned documents, better computers, etcetera has led to things just being more available and faster too.

Previously you had taxis, now you have programs like Uber that automatically find you a driver that's closer to you or headed in your direction. Before you would have to go to a big box store, now you can order it on Amazon and have it delivered to your door. Long ago you walked into Blockbuster, now you go to your local Redbox or stream it from Netflix.

Need to get a hold of someone? Text or call instead of having to leave a message and wait for them to get back to you. Want to look something up? Bring up the browser on your phone instead of going to the local library.

Not only are these things more available and fast, they're often also cheaper than they used to be too, and in some cases expected of people.

[StrawberryZebra]

I agree completely.

So far, i think, more than 60% of my interactions with the WoW community have been horrible.
People leave, rage, dont help eachother, dont stop and smell the flowers.
Its a mess.
I think long time WoW players have lost sight on what it means to play a game.
Is about fun IMO, and long time players are confusing rewards with fun. Or rather "to have fun i must get a reward fast".
Or even better "to justify doing this activity in game i must get the reward"

Nothing wrong with rewards...but WoW is blinding its playerbase with too many fast rewards and its confusing the playerbase IMO

All of this is completely irrelevent to what I wrote.

WoW is the way it is because it's been shaped over its lifetime by what the community surrounding it wants out of their game. Those who no longer want what WoW offers have already left to play something else, meaning that the game has also shaped a community that wants what it offers.

You have come across the phrase "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us" I assume? It applies here too. Both the game and the community co-evolve alongside each other.

[Deficineiron]

Im trying to argue if the design of a game can shape the way you play it.
I firmly believe the design of a game transforms its community into one big persona (for the most part, with a few exceptions)

there was a blue post some years ago spelling exactly this out - that it was blizzard's responsibility to set the ground rules that would define how the community would interact with the game and each other - that players ultimately would want 'everything instantly' taken in aggregate and the developers were the ones who had to decide what the limits were.

They were talking about D3 (it was right around or before release), and I found the irony amusing.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the only interesting point you've brought up.

On the one hand the design of a game directly influences the types of players who are interested in it. Be that because it's the genre they like, or has mechanics they enjoy etc. Naturally that directly influences the community that will initially form around the game. From there on however, what that community wants and requests of their game can in turn shape the future of the game, which of course changes the community of players which again will shape the game and so on and so forth.

Both help shape the other. Neither would exist without the other.

I think you have omitted a critical component of this relationship - changes made to the game by the owner/developer in order to attract/retain NEW customers.

I think a lot of what some have complained about the last many years with wow (example - insultingly easy faceroll and fast leveling) was never intended to please current players - it was intended to get people who did not enjoy a game they could die/fail in easily but who might enjoy smashing through entire zones without stopping.

that '70% of new accounts do not get past level 10' stat had to have been eating a hole in the spreadsheets of the numbers folks.

[Khallid]

I don't think the game teaches you anything.

One of the reason people leave or complain is because they see other people leave and complain and get away with it. It's a natural thing, when you see somebody else do something you would morally object to, but they don't get any negative repercussions, you start to lower your standards.

However, I think the real issue is boredom. The game lacks the ability to make rules or incentives to prevent bad behavior. But you can mask all that by just making fun activities. People won't leave or complain if they are having a good time. But that hasn't worked well in BfA. If you're bored you have no reason to stay in a BG that is not likely to give you a reward. You will complain that it takes too long to get meaningful progress. Fun is fundamentally more important than rewards in a videogame. When fun is gone and rewards are the only thing that matters, behavior changes to match. Not playing a game that bores you would be the healthier thing to do, but playing while bored is an easy recipe for toxic behavior.

[seleri]

If a game teaches someone patience, then I imagine that someone is a five year old that's just learning the concept of patience.

I think that it's more likely that people gravitate to the type of game they enjoy. The reason WoW is so big and also why there's so much arguing between players is because it caters to a lot of different people with conflicting interests. There is no single, cohesive "WoW community" so the questions in the OP can't really be answered.

[Deleted]

there was a blue post some years ago spelling exactly this out - that it was blizzard's responsibility to set the ground rules that would define how the community would interact with the game and each other - that players ultimately would want 'everything instantly' taken in aggregate and the developers were the ones who had to decide what the limits were.

They were talking about D3 (it was right around or before release), and I found the irony amusing.

I would love to read that blue post! Seems like fun

However, I think the real issue is boredom. The game lacks the ability to make rules or incentives to prevent bad behavior. But you can mask all that by just making fun activities. People won't leave or complain if they are having a good time. But that hasn't worked well in BfA. If you're bored you have no reason to stay in a BG that is not likely to give you a reward. You will complain that it takes too long to get meaningful progress. Fun is fundamentally more important than rewards in a videogame. When fun is gone and rewards are the only thing that matters, behavior changes to match. Not playing a game that bores you would be the healthier thing to do, but playing while bored is an easy recipe for toxic behavior.

Wise words. I love when people get all philosophica!

[Prime92]

Pretty simple. WoW teaches people that as long as you stay subscribed for long enough you get everything the game has to offer, no effort required whatsoever.

[Deficineiron]

I would love to read that blue post! Seems like fun



Wise words. I love when people get all philosophica!

if you know a way to view all blue diablo posts inc. from pre-release, I will try to find it.

[StrawberryZebra]

I think you have omitted a critical component of this relationship - changes made to the game by the owner/developer in order to attract/retain NEW customers.

Generally speaking, most new customers to games are brought in through various sales and discounts etc. They're from the business end of the company more than the development team. Throughout a games lifespan however they're unlikely to keep trying to bring in new players this way and shift more towards retaining the ones they already have. There are some games that break the rules here and slowly grow to being hits, but in general the player base for most games starts to dwindle >1 year into its lifespan, new players or not.

MMO's are really no exception here. Most, if not all, of the major ones offer a free trial to see if you'll enjoy the game before you decide to buy it. They launch frequent campaigns to try convince players to return and to bring their friends with them too. They do make changes to help get new and returning players up to speed, but those tend to be more on the UI side of things rather than the core gameplay aspects.

Regardless, I'd consider the game making sweeping changes to try bring in new players being the game trying to shape it's community. If they're successful, then that new community helps inform the games changes in the future.

I think a lot of what some have complained about the last many years with wow (example - insultingly easy faceroll and fast leveling) was never intended to please current players - it was intended to get people who did not enjoy a game they could die/fail in easily but who might enjoy smashing through entire zones without stopping.

I always considered that it was intended partly as a catch up mechanism, so you don't have to slog through a lot of old video games to get to the up to date one, and partly to help players who enjoy leveling Alts.

No amount of easy level ups are going to keep hold of players who aren't interested in the actual gameplay to stick around. That's why there are so many accounts that never hit level 10 - The owner decides that the game isn't for them and moves on to something else. There's nothing you can do to fix that, short of completely overhauling WoW to be a Shooter, or a MOBA or whatever that specific player is looking for.

[Motso]

Sorry if this comes out as a bit of a rant but i've been noticing a couple things about WoW's community.
Players constantly leave groups. And i mean constantly.
I just came out of a rated Battleground pug where people left the group in the middle of the BG when the game was 200-400.
Constantly, if the rated BG group loses once, everyone leaves also. But ive never seen people leaving in the middle of a friking BG...middle? The game was 200-400 for Pete's sake.
Also, just now, i was doing a world boss and several people started saying "this is taking too long"...this is taking too long?

I think this is caused by the constant "instant gratification" of the game.
What i mean is: The culprit for having this kind of community is the design of the game.

Do you agree this is the case?

I believe the game itself teaches it's playerbase...trains them to have one mentality.
Is this wrong?

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I say this because i've been playing another MMO where the game itself changed my entire personality. Im not even kidding
In this game (for example) at level 59 you only get 2-3% experience from a 1 HOUR session of gameplay.
Reaching level 60 is a 50 DAY commitment...if you can only play 1 hour a day. You are working for something that you will only be rewarded...almost 2 month after.
And in this "1 hour session" you are not "half AFK", you need to constantly press buttons and actually play the game non stop for an hour.

The entire personality of this game's community is "patient".

Just as an example, i met someone from my country on the general chat and this player INSISTED in boosting me from level 55 to level 56 just to help me out.
This guy farmed mobs for me for 1 HOUR straight...i was following him and my mind was blown.
The notion of "time", "reward" from this game's playerbase is totally Alien to WoW's.

--------

What do you guys think?

The design of a game shapes its community?
How is WoW's community?
Have you seen differences from other game communities and WoW's?
Is WoW's community addicted to rewards and never stops to smell the flowers?

You are responsible for your own happiness. You are not responsible for the happiness of others. Sounds like a terrible cliche because it is, but its also true.
Why would anyone trudge through something they aren't enjoying to avoid inconveniencing a stranger? I would argue that it is not good game design to force players to do so. Its not as sinister as you think really, over the years as getting to endgame has meant more and more levelling, players get very used to really just looking out for themselves. Within guilds that I have played with this is a non issue, cause it is your mates. Group finder and any other sort of pug has and will always be a risk.

[Zandalariprelate]

Wow teached me that other people are dicks and thank god for single player content.

Every online game teachs that, that is why I love niche games like Dark Souls

[breadisfunny]

wow teaches me how to use the ignore feature.

[33kamous3]

The entire system is based on instant gratification and getting carried. All day long players try to achieve these two things: 1) Get the loot they are after 2) get carried to it if possible.

Things that make the situation worse:
1. Lack of penalties for leaving
2. Allowing players to trade loot between them "Do you need this lol"
3. Game being totally impersonal so that you can screw anyone and never be caught or suffer from it.
4. Toxicity all around with players ready to insult players for even the most minor things.
5. Senseless progress where everyone thinks they are achievers because some shit loot titanforged.
6. Lack of team/guild spirit fuelled by the inane passion to just gather more loot per hour.
7. Ability to buy your way into almost any content as long as you have enough real life money or gold.

I could go on for hours but this is what it is. I compare wow to GTA Online which supposedly has a "toxic" community but lets be honest here players in GTAO are complete ANGELS in comparison to what WoW has become.

The problem was more or less burried during Legion because a lot of the game weight was on getting legendaries from absolutely any source and pushing artifact which are two completely random and personal activities not requiring group effort. However, whenever players meet, they are terrible.

As an alliance player my worst enemy is the other alliance players not the horde. Horde I can kill. I wish we could player vs everyone at this point.

Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. I don't really play other multiplayer games (never got much into FPS or console games) so I don't have much to compare to.

Sometimes I worry that the "social" behavior that I'm surrounded by in WoW will seep into my normal life or normal way of thinking and reacting to things. I mean, surely it already has to some degree (for better or worse). But when I think about the types that OP and others here are referring to...man, I really don't want to be like that.

[Lane]

I mean people are constantly bitching about perceived time-gating as it is over things like allied races, heritage armor, LFR unlocks, warfront schedules, rep in general, leveling in general... But this is how MMO's work, you put in the effort and you get the reward. In wow, effort means just playing the game and you'll get what you want pretty damned quickly. A few weeks of work (if that) is hardly time-gating.

Part of the problem is WoW hasn't allowed players to complete objectives at their own pace since BC. People complain about the vanilla rep grinds, but most of them didn't have a daily restriction. Once those were added is when I started having to calculate how behind I'd be if I didn't play that day or skipped a quest that I hated doing.

If a game throws tons of menial and boring char-maintenance busywork at you, you are bound to get impatient, because the game starts to feel like a second job. You are hopping from A->B->C just to get everything done.

Exacerbated by the fact it takes longer to travel to A, B, and C than it does to complete the activities once you get there.

[Deleted]

The idea that the entire playerbase somehow equals "a community" that should behave in they way you expect it to behave is quite frankly absurd.
Our brains have cognitive limits to the number of people with whom we can maintain stable social relationships with - relationships in which an individual knows who each person is and how each person relates to every other person. That number is most likely under 500.

You are right, i can only maintain a stable social relationship with a limited amount of people.
And if i dont take notes from who's name is who...i lose track of who everyone is...im bad with names.

Im having fun in this MMO.
I spent this morning interacting with lower levels.
There is an Arena where you can practice your pvp skills...you just need to find equally geared players.....or find a low geared player and unequip some of your gear to low yourself down to their level (this is what ive done)
Met 2 people today. One we had a huge conversation and i ended up adding him and the other we just spent several minutes doing duels.

Now....i need to write down their names so i can remember who they are by name