Shuriken Combo removed on PTR.

[Nurvus]

my point is their attention doesnt mean jack shit when they are incapable of fixing it.

Then why complain at all?

My point is if they got enough attention to the point of removing Shuriken Combo, maybe they'll do something else about it as well.

Everything else is pointless bickering until we see the final result.

[Aggrophobic]

OP cries because an OP ability is removed. There is absolutely no reason to allow this to stay in game, and the best part is, you're over here saying "Blizzard should change the design of bosses for one talent of one class". That is a moronic statement, and one of the prime examples of how stupid the playerbase can be nowadays.

Yeah, becuase making classes less intresting to play is a great way to "fix" the game. Class design is shallow and poor as it is and no one will be better off with them removing more core abilities.

They could have just fixed the numbers but I guess they just don't care enough anymore.

[RobertoCarlos]

Then why complain at all?

My point is if they got enough attention to the point of removing Shuriken Combo, maybe they'll do something else about it as well.

Everything else is pointless bickering until we see the final result.

Ah of course, saying blizzard's class design team has dropped the ball for BFA is "complaining" because we dont know the result.

But when its the other way around and you dont know the result but we should be happy anyway and thats fine? Because positive energy > negative energy right?

Logic =/=

I go on facts and whats in front of me. And their recent history shows we should have no faith they can make sub interesting. So far its just had complexity removed again and again.

[omeomorfismo]

good, now blizz should continue to nerf all high burst spec, they were always problem and will continue to be... maybe with a bit of luck in this ways abominations like hfc arcane/sub, fetid mage or zul sub stacking wont happen

[Deleted]

I mean if they had made it.... A chance to give you a combo point on shuriken storm per target hit, then it would have been a less drastic fix.

[RobertoCarlos]

I mean if they had made it.... A chance to give you a combo point on shuriken storm per target hit, then it would have been a less drastic fix.

yeah thats exactly what WoW and class design needs. More fucking RNG

[precious]

To be honest, that niche never made sense to me on Rogue, let alone Sub.

Rogues are really just the sneaky, assassin archetype, who excel at taking out single targets, not the one that seem to profit from a situation where you have to deal with multiple adds.
The niche fits more alongside something like Affliction or Unholy, who spread their shit all over the place and gain power based on that.

If it stays in Rogue, it should go to Assa, who spreads its poison all over enemies, strictly speaking from a class fantasy PoV.




I think that solely depends on how Blizzard works in terms of time shift.
No idea when Method and Co. started on Zul, but if that happened during the middle of the night for US West coast, devs had basically get up in the middle of the night and fix the problem, which is unlikely.



Rip was bugged, it interacted incorrectly with a buff on the nef fight.
Not sure if Feral got nerfed afterwards, though.

It was asked in one of the earlier blizzcons. When a tier is launched there is a 24 hour shift from devs, coders and gms ( some top guilds have stated flying gms over them watching their tries ) im sure there will be screenshots somewhere if u search. So no they were there and watching, and i just told u that the certain streamer talked to that guy and he said "im shocked" of how fast guilds are burning zul down cause he didnt thought of SS. He was there when the first guilds reached him and killed him in 20 tries.

Not like they had a lead designer and a 20 ppl internal stuff that does those raids. Want more examples? They shamingly admited on kj that the internal test team never did kj on mythic fully, but they were testing parts of fight buypassing his health and certain phases without noticing the fight was impossible to be done on its original state.

I wouldnt be shocked if they did the exact same on fetid. I lost any faith on this current team and i just call them useless. Especially the coders.

[RobertoCarlos]

good, now blizz should continue to nerf all high burst spec, they were always problem and will continue to be... maybe with a bit of luck in this ways abominations like hfc arcane/sub, fetid mage or zul sub stacking wont happen

theres always gonna be an outlier unless you just copy and paste everything.

Strengths/niche in a rpg is supposed to be a good thing.

[Deleted]

The whole Zul problem wouldn't have been a problem if the crawgs were actually dangerous. Was it too hard to buff the damage they did and prevent them from being slowed?

Crawgs deal a lot of damage, if you were a healer, you would actually know how much that tank gets battered if they directly tank those crawgs.

The only reason you can live through crawgs is because you're probably constantly snaring them using a frost mage (or something similar) and the adds don't get to the tank most of the time. If the tank tanks them (5 of them) then he generally will be throttling through his cds to stay alive, and using ring of peace to get them away from him when they hurt too much.

The problem lies with the rogue damage, not so much the encounter, eviscerate deals too much damage, and the rest deals too little damage. They could've kept shuriken combo, and just halved eviscerate damage, and buffed all the rest to compensate and they would be dead on Zul, but not on every other boss aswell.

[Nurvus]

Ah of course, saying blizzard's class design team has dropped the ball for BFA is "complaining" because we dont know the result.

But when its the other way around and you dont know the result but we should be happy anyway and thats fine? Because positive energy > negative energy right?

Logic =/=

I go on facts and whats in front of me. And their recent history shows we should have no faith they can make sub interesting. So far its just had complexity removed again and again.

They dropped the ball on shaman - they've always dropped the ball on shaman.

It's not "Class Design" it's "Shaman Design" and "Priest Design" that dropped the ball for many expansions on a row.
Decent ideas, poor tuning.

Doesn't mean shit for Rogues though.

[Qaletaqa]

well when blizzard says your class's entire point is one thing, it's their "niche", it's their main fantasy, and then they just randomly take it away.

is it a surprise we're upset?

there's also no compensations, which means the spec is literally dead.
so yeah.

but hey, sub was good on one boss, now it's gonna be good on none of them

imagine if all of a sudden they removed warrior execute in a .1 patch

or made it so affliction dots only affect one target at a time

Sub will still be better at it than Enh is, and it's been Enh's niche since Legion.

[shaunika123]

Sub will still be better at it than Enh is, and it's been Enh's niche since Legion.

two wrongs dont make a right

also enh is getting a soft rework and buffs

all sub is getting is a big dick in their ass

[omeomorfismo]

theres always gonna be an outlier unless you just copy and paste everything.

Strengths/niche in a rpg is supposed to be a good thing.

yep, but we are playing a videogame. there isnt a master that can shutdown the powerplayer at will.
some things are simply too much over the top like ranged vs melee and burst vs constant damage (i mean, with the hypotesis of similar dps). they havent disadvantages over the other niches so they stop to be "niches" and become the norm and required thing.

sub happens to have a strong "niche", redirect aoe in st, that sinergize too well with the general mechanic of the class, stack CDs in too short burst windows.
if they want really mantain the mechanics they had to redirect that aoe in something that isnt the fucking main damage ability enhanched by tons of multiplier over multipliers with even a talent that give you for free 5 of them. and still it will be too good thanks the fact that all sub multiplier less the dot are buff and will enhance that redirect

[Alanar]

Well assassination is still pretty strong, but it’s pretty much the only option for rogues at this point.

Well I sm rocking outlaw atm and I am having so much more fun then assasination, which is what every mom and kids are running.
Outlaw is 100% viable tbh, sub idk about.

[Parhelion]

If anything, this game needs more gimmicks like the Shuriken Combo, Comet Storm with Frost Nova, Lazer beamz into Fel Barrage etc. Abilities like these make our classes feel alive.
It doesn't matter how OP it is as long as it has an opportunity cost and a risk of failure.

I don't quite understand this current dev obsession with nerfing AoE damage and it's derivatives. It's not like M10+ mobs just drop like flies because we have them. Sure, AoE helps, but there's also interrupts, kiting, CC, mind control, positioning, all sorts of things. We finally have the chance in M+ to utilize our classes to maximum potential and then they insist on reworking them as if they were broken in the first place.

If all they want is smooth single-target damage and nothing else, they can just leave the white swings in and remove everything else, that should do the trick, right?

Is (was?) shuriken combo OP? Sure. Does (did?) it need tuning because it was spiralling out of control? Probably. Don't kill it, though, make it FUN to use.

At this rate of disconnectedness from the player base, I fully expect micropayments and loot chests in the near future.

[Kralljin]

When a tier is launched there is a 24 hour shift from devs, coders and gms ( some top guilds have stated flying gms over them watching their tries )

Oh i'm not defending Blizzard, but i don't expect them to react to that outside of working hours.
If they have a shift set up to prevent that, then they fucked up by not reacting to a fuck up.

Not like they had a lead designer and a 20 ppl internal stuff that does those raids. Want more examples? They shamingly admited on kj that the internal test team never did kj on mythic fully

Don't recall them admitting that, only remember "we have capable, former hardcore raider on our team, trust us!".

I wouldnt be shocked if they did the exact same on fetid. I lost any faith on this current team and i just call them useless. Especially the coders.

Ion explained that Fetid had bad math in it, they usually calculate how much health something is supposed to have, then slap some additional % on it to make it difficult.

However, maybe my definition of "coder" is different, but the big issues of current encounter design happens at a conceptual stage, something like G'huun or Zul was a clear failure from the people that work out the basic layout of an encounter, not the people that code the fight.

Actual bugs usually get fixed rather quickly and aren't neccessarily the problem.

[shaunika123]

If anything, this game needs more gimmicks like the Shuriken Combo, Comet Storm with Frost Nova, Lazer beamz into Fel Barrage etc. Abilities like these make our classes feel alive.
It doesn't matter how OP it is as long as it has an opportunity cost and a risk of failure.

I don't quite understand this current dev obsession with nerfing AoE damage and it's derivatives. It's not like M10+ mobs just drop like flies because we have them. Sure, AoE helps, but there's also interrupts, kiting, CC, mind control, positioning, all sorts of things. We finally have the chance in M+ to utilize our classes to maximum potential and then they insist on reworking them as if they were broken in the first place.

If all they want is smooth single-target damage and nothing else, they can just leave the white swings in and remove everything else, that should do the trick, right?

Is (was?) shuriken combo OP? Sure. Does (did?) it need tuning because it was spiralling out of control? Probably. Don't kill it, though, make it FUN to use.

At this rate of disconnectedness from the player base, I fully expect micropayments and loot chests in the near future.

but it was fun... we cant have that

[Qaletaqa]

two wrongs dont make a right

also enh is getting a soft rework and buffs

all sub is getting is a big dick in their ass

The wrong was sub doing it that well.

Enh is not getting any form of rework. We're getting minor damage tuning for talents that could have been done via hotfix.

Sub was OP. It's getting brought in line. It's fine.

[Varolyn]

The wrong was sub doing it that well.

Enh is not getting any form of rework. We're getting minor damage tuning for talents that could have been done via hotfix.

Sub was OP. It's getting brought in line. It's fine.

“Sub was op” yeah for one fight on one difficulty. Go look at logs and see how many sub rogues do zul, and then compare that to how many sub rogue parses there are across all fights in Uldir. Then check sub’s M+ representation. Then see how it is in pvp. That should tell you how “op” sub is.

[RobertoCarlos]

The wrong was sub doing it that well.

Enh is not getting any form of rework. We're getting minor damage tuning for talents that could have been done via hotfix.

Sub was OP. It's getting brought in line. It's fine.

Blizzards approach to "balancing" is using a hammer and smashing everything instead of a precision scapel and just removing the "op" without just flat out removing skills/synergies

when will WoW start giving again instead of taking I wonder.