Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

snip

I don't care either way, I just want the lore for it to make sense.

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

[Katchii]

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

Except, Pandaren.

And Void Elves and Blood Elves already look pretty much identical when in full armor. the differences are minimal. Similarly now to how Nightborne and Night Elves have such similar frames and animations, so across the field, without having a different colored name, how would you easily distinguish between a Nigh Elf and a Nightborne if they were standing side by side in full armor?

I'm not denying that what you said is true, but it's a pretty shallow reason not to do it given the similarities that already exist across factions to the point of almost being a non-issue for this, IMO.

But as you said, having the Void Elves in play now really makes this a remote possibility. The most that I'd expect is to give Void Elves cosmetic options, but as I said I'd find that a bit distasteful as it would obviously just be a way to try and get the HE crowd to STFU about it.

[Obelisk Kai]

Except, Pandaren.

Pandaren are not and never have been the answer to these concerns or issues.

Pandaren were conceived as neutral and introduced as neutral and their entire storyline in Mists of Pandaria was based on their neutrality. They were an experiment to see if neutral races could work, which if successful would have been a boon for the hard pressed development team as they would only have to create one race model and one starting experience, rather than two. The Pandaren experiment was a failure, with one Blizzard dev tweeting that they didn't like the cost to faction diversity Pandaren imposed, faction diversity being the reason High Elves were rejected.

A neutral race was a mistake. Just because they made that mistake does not mean they are obligated to repeat it. And given it has been over six years since Pandaria was added to the game, and no other neutral race has been added to the game despite there being three further expansions and three further opportunities to do so, I think it is safe to say we won't be seeing any further neutral races. After all, Blizzard does not need neutral races to save time anymore. The Allied race system does away with the need for starting experiences and allows the re-use of existing models.

Having said that, the concept does not apply to Blood/High Elves. Blood Elves are already a playable race and have been a core part of the Horde for the past thirteen years. The lore lets us know they represent an overwhelming majority of the thalassian elf population. The only thing that is done by those who cite the neutral Pandaren as an example is that they implicitly admit that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

And Void Elves and Blood Elves already look pretty much identical when in full armor. the differences are minimal. Similarly now to how Nightborne and Night Elves have such similar frames and animations, so across the field, without having a different colored name, how would you easily distinguish between a Nigh Elf and a Nightborne if they were standing side by side in full armor?

That point cuts both ways. I could just as easily say that those who want High Elves should wear full armor on their Void Elves and never take it off. Void Elves and Blood Elves are not the same race, one is the true High Elf, the other is a variant transformed by void energy into it's own thing.

I'm not denying that what you said is true, but it's a pretty shallow reason not to do it given the similarities that already exist across factions to the point of almost being a non-issue for this, IMO.

Similarity is not being identical. Void Elves have their own lore, their own aesthetic and their own theme. They are former Blood/High Elves but they have been sufficiently differentiated that they do not tread on the toes of the Blood Elves or the Horde, which playable Alliance High Elves would. I have stated previously I was not keen to share the thalassian elf model with the Alliance, nor am I keen that a modified night elf model ended up on the Horde. But while it happened, both groups are sufficiently different from their parents that they do not damage faction diversity too much.

But as you said, having the Void Elves in play now really makes this a remote possibility. The most that I'd expect is to give Void Elves cosmetic options, but as I said I'd find that a bit distasteful as it would obviously just be a way to try and get the HE crowd to STFU about it.

Void Elves would not have been created had they any intention of adding Alliance High Elves in future. Void Elves were clearly conceived to be a compromise for Alliance players to play something like a Blood Elf (and Blood Elves ARE High Elves). And it is also true that as much as the existence of Blood Elves was a barrier to Alliance High Elves, Void Elves are a further lock as we never discuss how playable Alliance High Elves would undermine THEM. If Blizzard was to do something on this question in future, it is far likelier they would use Void Elves as a vehicle rather than blow an Allied race slot on an exact duplicate of an existing race.

[Varx]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

As long as WoW retains its subs, Blizz will never shoot themselves in the foot by wasting a race slot on something so incredibly lazy on one faction while the Horde's counterpart is a fresh reskin or completely new rig.

[Katchii]

Pandaren are not and never have been the answer to these concerns or issues.

Pandaren were conceived as neutral and introduced as neutral and their entire storyline in Mists of Pandaria was based on their neutrality. They were an experiment to see if neutral races could work, which if successful would have been a boon for the hard pressed development team as they would only have to create one race model and one starting experience, rather than two. The Pandaren experiment was a failure, with one Blizzard dev tweeting that they didn't like the cost to faction diversity Pandaren imposed, faction diversity being the reason High Elves were rejected.

A neutral race was a mistake. Just because they made that mistake does not mean they are obligated to repeat it. And given it has been over six years since Pandaria was added to the game, and no other neutral race has been added to the game despite there being three further expansions and three further opportunities to do so, I think it is safe to say we won't be seeing any further neutral races. After all, Blizzard does not need neutral races to save time anymore. The Allied race system does away with the need for starting experiences and allows the re-use of existing models.

Having said that, the concept does not apply to Blood/High Elves. Blood Elves are already a playable race and have been a core part of the Horde for the past thirteen years. The lore lets us know they represent an overwhelming majority of the thalassian elf population. The only thing that is done by those who cite the neutral Pandaren as an example is that they implicitly admit that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

I brought them up simply because your argument is having to do with having an identical looking race with identical history etc... Since both factions have a literally identical race, the argument against having another one rings a bit shallow. Especially since the reasoning behind the split with HvA Pandaren is functionally identical to why there would be Blood Elves on the Horde and High Elves on the Alliance; political/ideological differences.

That point cuts both ways. I could just as easily say that those who want High Elves should wear full armor on their Void Elves and never take it off. Void Elves and Blood Elves are not the same race, one is the true High Elf, the other is a variant transformed by void energy into it's own thing.

Again, I only brought it up to point out that the physical, in-game visual similarities already exist, so using that as an excuse not to do it is a shallow reason not to do it

Similarity is not being identical. Void Elves have their own lore, their own aesthetic and their own theme. They are former Blood/High Elves but they have been sufficiently differentiated that they do not tread on the toes of the Blood Elves or the Horde, which playable Alliance High Elves would. I have stated previously I was not keen to share the thalassian elf model with the Alliance, nor am I keen that a modified night elf model ended up on the Horde. But while it happened, both groups are sufficiently different from their parents that they do not damage faction diversity too much.

All true, and I agree.

Void Elves would not have been created had they any intention of adding Alliance High Elves in future. Void Elves were clearly conceived to be a compromise for Alliance players to play something like a Blood Elf (and Blood Elves ARE High Elves). And it is also true that as much as the existence of Blood Elves was a barrier to Alliance High Elves, Void Elves are a further lock as we never discuss how playable Alliance High Elves would undermine THEM. If Blizzard was to do something on this question in future, it is far likelier they would use Void Elves as a vehicle rather than blow an Allied race slot on an exact duplicate of an existing race.

I agree with all of this.

But Pandaren have already set a precedent for being able to have the exact same race on both factions without compromising faction identity, with the only difference being their ideologies. If they were to implement Alliance High Elves, the only game play difference would be that they wouldn't start as neutral like the Pandaren. They could easily add some kind of text, or have their opening little cinematic experience/ intro quest that goes over why these elves are loyal to the Alliance rather than be named Blood Elves of the Horde.

I don't think they will ever do it, nor do I think they should given all the reasoning above, but they feasibly COULD if they wanted to since they have everything they need to feasibly justify it.

[Kithelle]

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

I'm sorry...that all you can do is parrot the same garbage over and over that isn't true, I feel bad for you.

I feel bad that you're parroting the same thing that even Ion himself said there could be High Elves in the game some day...kinda sad really that you need to hold onto those stupid quotes like they're your bible just because you have a burning hatred like a rabid furious dog, because you want to keep people from enjoying what they want to enjoy.

I really feel bad for you, I'm sorry and maybe some day you'll find some peace.

[Malacrass]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

This is also my bet.
They keep all the small fanservice perks for a time when the integrity of the game isn't a top priority anymore (hell, it already isn't with the intro of Voidelves and Nightborn).

Things like Hide Chest, transmog restrictions of weapons and "fun" items, blue eyes for Blood Elves and/or blue eyes and fair skin for Void Elves, abolishing racials or letting people choose etc.

[AngerFork]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

As long as WoW retains its subs, Blizz will never shoot themselves in the foot by wasting a race slot on something so incredibly lazy on one faction while the Horde's counterpart is a fresh reskin or completely new rig.

IMO, I think it will be in well before that. My guess is that they are planning perhaps to allow Alliance Races to be on the Horde and vice-versa (keeping the faction lines intact, but letting people play with their friends without regard to race or faction) using some sort of end-of-expansion thing. From here, it's just a new face design and perhaps a different name tag for Alliance-based Blood Elves to call themselves High Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'll reply to those who quoted in time, but short on time so just wanted to throw this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...yers/?sort=top

The comments with thousands or hundreds of upvotes all show how many support the hypocritical nature of Void Elves over High Elves while at same time giving Horde Nightborne, talking about making Allied Races different and adding Lightforged Draenei, the frustrations of Alliance constantly getting teased with High Elves (even with Void Elves being here), and how the Void Elves are so similar to Blood Elves already that Blizzard should've just gone with High Elves in the first place.

Much easier to see the numbers a bit more clearly on how many of those support those points compared to the same few individuals here, both for and against.

I'd be interested in seeing someone post some "Blue eyes for Blood Elves" or "Blood Elves are High Elves" and the response for that would be. Doesn't seem to be as popular on Reddit than Alliance High Elves.

[Fyersing]

The point is that High Elves do not have a nation state with a national leader, the best they have is a subset of militarized High Elves who live in Dalaran, Vereesa therefore can only speak for and give commands to members of the Silver Covenant, not all High Elves, just the ones living in Dalaran AND serving as part of the Silver Covenant; not the ones living around the world, not the ones living in Stormwind, and not the ones who aren't part of her militarized faction.

...and? I just don't see what you're trying to assert.

The first bit of what you're saying is a very peculiar assertion, suggesting that because they (the Silver Covenant) don't have control over an ethnically homogeneous population center, they therefore aren't plausible candidates to be made playable. Are we forgetting that at one point or another throughout WoW's lifetime, this same status (i.e. an unclear status as "vagrant cultures") has been applied to an enormous majority of all playable races (Trolls, Gnomes, Worgen, Goblins, Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei, and Mag'har Orcs; and if you delve into the narrative more generally, meaning outside of the scope of WoW, you'll find that "homelessness" has plagued others such as Humans, Orcs, Blood Elves, and Forsaken. Hell, the most current patch has placed Night Elves and Forsaken into this exact situation, with both of their homelands demolished.)

The second, and honestly even more bizarre, assertion is that because Vereesa Windrunner is only the leader of the Silver Covenant the scope of her authority is limited to just the Silver Covenant. Um... and? This is no different than any other faction, Horde or Alliance.

High Elves do not see Dalaran as theirs by right, it was never theirs. It's a human city, originally the capital of the Arathi human kingdom of Dalaran, it's run by the council of 6 of the Kirin Tor, of which, there are no High Elves. It's not even close to "theirs."

You're mistaking the meaning I intended with the usage of "theirs", it sounds like.

I'm not suggesting that they view it as "theirs" in the sense that it is controlled by or belongs to High Elves, but as "theirs" in the sense that they've lived there for centuries (or perhaps even millennia) and as such have become completely naturalized into the culture. The same way it shouldn't be surprising that someone born and raised in Texas would be inculcated in the common culture therein, which could then be easily utilized to create a dichotomy of "us" and "them", with regards to people who are sufficiently Texan and people who aren't.

It's very likely that the Silver Covenant sees itself as an organization which specifically upholds the cultural values of Dalaran, and not the cultural values of the broader population which employs the demonym of High Elf. This is circumstantially corroborated by the Silver Covenant's proximity to Dalaran in virtually every confrontation, as well as by their continued interest and usage of magic (while pretty much all of the other clusters of High Elves either weaned themselves off of magic entirely, struggled with and ultimately found ways of coping with their addiction, or succumbed and either became Withered or corpses).

While on the subject of the broader population, I have to admit that I've never really been a fan of the idea of playable groups being implemented as cultural grab-bags (i.e. lumping a bunch of closely related groupings into a larger, broader categorization, like the Mag'har Orcs). This means that using all of these disparate groups (i.e. Highvale Elves, Allerian Stronghold Elves, etc.) to create some kind of hodge-podge identity doesn't really excite me -- especially when these isolated groupings are more-or-less culturally identical to modern Blood Elves but without access to the same resources, and the Silver Covenant represents the only objectively successful population of High Elves, and who have been defined as being culturally divergent (as opposed to just politically divergent, though they are that as well).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Silver_Covenant
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=29660/grand-marauder-sai
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

There are several non High Elf NPCs that are part of the Silver Covenant, some Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans. Most are merchant types, but some are military as well.

The only way you can use this source, and believe it to be gospel, is if you also believe the Sunreavers aren't a fundamentally Blood Elven organization; because there are literally animals faction-tagged as Sunreavers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rhukah
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nargut
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Steen_Horngrass (LOL)

I'm not spouting head canon here, I'm basing everything I'm saying on the established lore. If you're going to come up with arguments to refute my claims, please do better than "off the top of my head" when you're asking for actual sources from me. It's a bit hypocritical.

It's precisely headcanon.

The "established lore" is that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are organizations developed by and for High Elves and Blood Elves, respectively. What you're attempting to do is what you simultaneously chastise the pro-HE crowd for doing, which is taking the inclusion of an NPC in some specific circumstance and extrapolating upon the meaning behind said inclusion. The only difference is that when people point to High Elven NPC's, they're narratively recognized -- whereas, despite them being tagged as such, the story directly refutes that such membership exists.

As there are literally people faction-tagged to both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers who are neither HE or BE, despite both organizations being referred to in- and out-of-game as being racially-oriented, and 100% of these cases are within each groups respective "hub" within Dalaran (Northrend)... we can pretty safely conclude that it is a mechanic of gameplay, and nothing more.

First, that schism only mentions two groups, but doesn't really mention the diaspora the High Elves are in. So, the claim you're making amounts to saying that because the schism involved two groups, that those two groups must still be just two groups; Blood Elves and High Elves.

Um, it amounts to no such thing. These are all statements of fact:

• There were High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, and High Elves living in/around Dalaran.
• The High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, who survived the Scourge's invasion of Quel'thalas, would eventually re-organize as the Blood Elves.
• The High Elves living in/around Dalaran (and, briefly, Theramore or Stormwind), would maintain their social and political ties to Dalaran and the Alliance.

The only bit of this which is currently open to interpretation is precisely how many of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran remained in/around Dalaran, after Kael'thas Sunstrider called for the support of his kinfolk to reclaim Quel'thalas. The notion of none of these High Elves answering the call is just as plausible as many/most of them answering the call; and while the continued presence of High Elf NPC's suggests that a great deal of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran elected not to assist Quel'thalas, it remains speculative conjecture at best to discuss numbers.

Second, you're implying that the vast majority of remaining High Elves both live in Dalaran and are serving in a military capacity as part of the Silver Covenant. So...the lore information doesn't add up to what you're implying, if the High Elves are in a state of diaspora across Stormwind, Dalaran, Outland and their lodges around the world (but primarily Qel'Danil), how can "the absolute majority" of them both be living in Dalaran AND be part of the relatively small militarized faction there?

It seems like you're asking, "How can the Silver Covenant constitute a numerical majority, relative to the other disparate groups of High Elves?", and I'm really not sure what type of answer you're looking for. To be frank, I can't even really grasp what you consider to be contentious about the notion of the Silver Covenant representing the largest congregation of High Elves.

Are you trying to suggest that, insofar as the narrative is concerned, it is more plausible that the 27 now-deceased HE's at Quel'lithien or the 14 thoroughly disassociated HE's at Quel'danil represent a larger population that the hundreds of Silver Covenant NPC's?

You have no source that states specifically that the absolute majority of remaining High Elves live in Dalaran AND are part of the Silver Covenant. I'm just bringing up that not every single High Elf is serving in a military capacity, or living in Dalaran. Many High Elves live in Stormwind, and there are High Elves living within the Alliance that are not serving in a military capacity and are therefore not part of the Silver Covenant, they're just living their lives within Alliance territory.

I see what you're saying about the Silver Covenant only being the military, meaning my use of the term as a catch-all is problematic and should henceforth be changed to a term which also implies the inclusion of civilians; that being said, that there exists/existed clusters of HE's in Stormwind or Theramore doesn't really detract from what I've posited, because the Warcraft Chronicle makes it clear that these HE's are only in these places because they fled there from Dalaran.

If we were to describe the original two groups as "High Elves culturally-aligned with Quel'thalas" and "High Elves culturally-aligned with Dalaran", all of these individuals you're citing (from Stormwind, Theramore, etc.) still fall into that latter category even if they're not active members of the Silver Covenant. If they were to implement playable HE's, using this understanding, we'd basically be getting "Dalaranian Elves" and the optics of all the appropriate diaspora groupings would be updated to reflect this allegiance.

I've never stated that High Elves aren't part of the Alliance, they absolutely are. I'm saying that they aren't a separate nation state allying themselves with the Alliance, like Night Elves, Gnomes, Worgen, Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei...they're integral citizens of the cities and states they live in and are therefore just part of the Alliance population.

And I'm wondering why this matters, like, at all?

A complete lack of an official population center didn't prevent the Gnomes or Trolls from being implemented, nor can we currently expect Blizzard to remove Night Elves or Forsaken as playable options because they're both (especially the Forsaken) semi-officially living on the proverbial couches of their allies.

[Katchii]

...and? I just don't see what you're trying to assert.

The first bit of what you're saying is a very peculiar assertion, suggesting that because they (the Silver Covenant) don't have control over an ethnically homogeneous population center, they therefore aren't plausible candidates to be made playable. Are we forgetting that at one point or another throughout WoW's lifetime, this same status (i.e. an unclear status as "vagrant cultures") has been applied to an enormous majority of all playable races (Trolls, Gnomes, Worgen, Goblins, Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei, and Mag'har Orcs; and if you delve into the narrative more generally, meaning outside of the scope of WoW, you'll find that "homelessness" has plagued others such as Humans, Orcs, Blood Elves, and Forsaken. Hell, the most current patch has placed Night Elves and Forsaken into this exact situation, with both of their homelands demolished.)

The second, and honestly even more bizarre, assertion is that because Vereesa Windrunner is only the leader of the Silver Covenant the scope of her authority is limited to just the Silver Covenant. Um... and? This is no different than any other faction, Horde or Alliance.

I've never stated that, at all. No where in my discussions have I asserted that they shouldn't be playable. I'm debating the claims surrounding your assertions that the Silver Covenant is the population center for all Alliance aligned High Elves.

My point is that they don't have an alliance WITH the Alliance, it's that the High Elves are already an integral part of the Alliance population. This difference doesn't mean anything in regards to them being playable or not.

You're mistaking the meaning I intended with the usage of "theirs", it sounds like.

I'm not suggesting that they view it as "theirs" in the sense that it is controlled by or belongs to High Elves, but as "theirs" in the sense that they've lived there for centuries (or perhaps even millennia) and as such have become completely naturalized into the culture. The same way it shouldn't be surprising that someone born and raised in Texas would be inculcated in the common culture therein, which could then be easily utilized to create a dichotomy of "us" and "them", with regards to people who are sufficiently Texan and people who aren't.

It's very likely that the Silver Covenant sees itself as an organization which specifically upholds the cultural values of Dalaran, and not the cultural values of the broader population which employs the demonym of High Elf. This is circumstantially corroborated by the Silver Covenant's proximity to Dalaran in virtually every confrontation, as well as by their continued interest and usage of magic (while pretty much all of the other clusters of High Elves either weaned themselves off of magic entirely, struggled with and ultimately found ways of coping with their addiction, or succumbed and either became Withered or corpses).

While on the subject of the broader population, I have to admit that I've never really been a fan of the idea of playable groups being implemented as cultural grab-bags (i.e. lumping a bunch of closely related groupings into a larger, broader categorization, like the Mag'har Orcs). This means that using all of these disparate groups (i.e. Highvale Elves, Allerian Stronghold Elves, etc.) to create some kind of hodge-podge identity doesn't really excite me -- especially when these isolated groupings are more-or-less culturally identical to modern Blood Elves but without access to the same resources, and the Silver Covenant represents the only objectively successful population of High Elves, and who have been defined as being culturally divergent (as opposed to just politically divergent, though they are that as well).

Fair enough. This is kind of the crux of what I'm saying anyway. High Elves are fighting on behalf of the Alliance because they see the Alliance cities as they're homes, not necessarily because of some military allegiance between High Elves and the Alliance.

The only way you can use this source, and believe it to be gospel, is if you also believe the Sunreavers aren't a fundamentally Blood Elven organization; because there are literally animals faction-tagged as Sunreavers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rhukah
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nargut
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Steen_Horngrass (LOL)

I provided sources that I'm using to back up my claims, they're the only sources I've got, and I even pointed out that they don't all align. So I'm not taking them as gospel, just pointing out what the sources I'm using are saying. I'm not denying they may have questionable veracity, but the point remains that there are, in-game, non High Elf NPCs aligned with the Sliver Covenant. The same can be said of the Sunreavers.

I also never claimed they weren't a High Elf centric organization, just that they weren't High Elf exclusive.

It's precisely headcanon.

The "established lore" is that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are organizations developed by and for High Elves and Blood Elves, respectively. What you're attempting to do is what you simultaneously chastise the pro-HE crowd for doing, which is taking the inclusion of an NPC in some specific circumstance and extrapolating upon the meaning behind said inclusion. The only difference is that when people point to High Elven NPC's, they're narratively recognized -- whereas, despite them being tagged as such, the story directly refutes that such membership exists.

As there are literally people faction-tagged to both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers who are neither HE or BE, despite both organizations being referred to in- and out-of-game as being racially-oriented, and 100% of these cases are within each groups respective "hub" within Dalaran (Northrend)... we can pretty safely conclude that it is a mechanic of gameplay, and nothing more.

Why is it head canon? My statements are based on the information available...I'm not making any of this up, I cited my sources. Just because you disagree with it or refute my sources doesn't mean I'm pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Um, it amounts to no such thing. These are all statements of fact:

• There were High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, and High Elves living in/around Dalaran.
• The High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, who survived the Scourge's invasion of Quel'thalas, would eventually re-organize as the Blood Elves.
• The High Elves living in/around Dalaran (and, briefly, Theramore or Stormwind), would maintain their social and political ties to Dalaran and the Alliance.

The only bit of this which is currently open to interpretation is precisely how many of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran remained in/around Dalaran, after Kael'thas Sunstrider called for the support of his kinfolk to reclaim Quel'thalas. The notion of none of these High Elves answering the call is just as plausible as many/most of them answering the call; and while the continued presence of High Elf NPC's suggests that a great deal of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran elected not to assist Quel'thalas, it remains speculative conjecture at best to discuss numbers.

And? I never discussed numbers. You said the Silver Covenant makes up the vast majority of all remaining High Elves. My counter point is that there is no information that suggests this is true. They may be the largest single gathering of existing High Elves, that doesn't mean they account for the vast majority of all High Elves because not all High Elves that still exist, or even not all HE that live in Dalaran, are part of the Silver Covenant.

It seems like you're asking, "How can the Silver Covenant constitute a numerical majority, relative to the other disparate groups of High Elves?", and I'm really not sure what type of answer you're looking for. To be frank, I can't even really grasp what you consider to be contentious about the notion of the Silver Covenant representing the largest congregation of High Elves.

Are you trying to suggest that, insofar as the narrative is concerned, it is more plausible that the 27 now-deceased HE's at Quel'lithien or the 14 thoroughly disassociated HE's at Quel'danil represent a larger population that the hundreds of Silver Covenant NPC's?

I'm not debating whether they can or can't be the majority, I'm saying the existing information we have doesn't confirm the claim. As you yourself stated, it's speculative conjecture to discuss numbers. And, non named NPCs are not listed in any WoW data base you just see them walking around, so you can't use an NPC data base comparison to support the claim.

What we KNOW is that the High Elves are in diaspora, that the Silver Covenant is a large congregation of High Elves and that High Elves live in several Alliance cities...what we DON'T know is exactly how many High Elves aren't part of the Silver Covenant, exactly how many live elsewhere and therefore can't conclusively state that the Silver Covenant has a numerical majority.

It would make sense if they did, but there's nothing in writing or in-game that confirms that claim. That's all I'm saying.

I see what you're saying about the Silver Covenant only being the military, meaning my use of the term as a catch-all is problematic and should henceforth be changed to a term which also implies the inclusion of civilians; that being said, that there exists/existed clusters of HE's in Stormwind or Theramore doesn't really detract from what I've posited, because the Warcraft Chronicle makes it clear that these HE's are only in these places because they fled there from Dalaran.

If we were to describe the original two groups as "High Elves culturally-aligned with Quel'thalas" and "High Elves culturally-aligned with Dalaran", all of these individuals you're citing (from Stormwind, Theramore, etc.) still fall into that latter category even if they're not active members of the Silver Covenant. If they were to implement playable HE's, using this understanding, we'd basically be getting "Dalaranian Elves" and the optics of all the appropriate diaspora groupings would be updated to reflect this allegiance.

Fair enough.

And I'm wondering why this matters, like, at all?

A complete lack of an official population center didn't prevent the Gnomes or Trolls from being implemented, nor can we currently expect Blizzard to remove Night Elves or Forsaken as playable options because they're both (especially the Forsaken) semi-officially living on the proverbial couches of their allies.

I'm not debating whether they should be added or not, I've already stated multiple times in this thread that I don't really care either way, that enough lore exists for Blizzard to implement them if they wanted to. If they were to be made playable, using the Silver Covenant as the faction they came from would make complete sense; it's the military faction of High Elves, has a racial leader and has a city they call home. I'm strictly debating what the lore does or doesn't say.

Also, the Gnomes and Trolls, and now Night Elves and Forsaken, don't lack a population center they lack a home. Their populations followed their leaders to where they are now. The High Elves scattered. That doesn't mean they can't or won't re congregate, but they didn't move as a unified High Elf population under a unified leadership like the Gnomes, Trolls, Night Elves and Forsaken did when they lost their homes.

[Fyersing]

My point is that they don't have an alliance WITH the Alliance, it's that the High Elves are already an integral part of the Alliance population. This difference doesn't mean anything in regards to them being playable or not.

It is entirely possible that those individuals living in/around Stormwind (and previously Theramore) would've been recognized as citizens of those cities, but those living in/around Dalaran would be recognized as citizens of Dalaran. The point being that those living in/around Dalaran have the exact same functioning relationship with the Alliance as any other playable race, being citizens of an independent nation-state (or, in this case, city-state) which has pledged itself to the Alliance.

(Note: I realize Dalaran is maintaining it's neutrality in BfA, but presuming High Elves were imminent this would likely change.)

Fair enough. This is kind of the crux of what I'm saying anyway. High Elves are fighting on behalf of the Alliance because they see the Alliance cities as they're homes, not necessarily because of some military allegiance between High Elves and the Alliance.

This is agreeable as it relates to HE's living in/around Stormwind (which probably includes many of the High Elves who're enlisted in the 7th Legion, despite their faction-tag being set to Silver Covenant). Those remaining in/around Dalaran are certainly engaging with the Alliance as an independent body. Though as you allude to, somewhat of an irrelevancy.

Why is it head canon? My statements are based on the information available...I'm not making any of this up, I cited my sources. Just because you disagree with it or refute my sources doesn't mean I'm pulling this stuff out of my ass.

It doesn't need to be a complete fabrication for it to be largely baseless.

The meat-and-bones of the position you're taking is quite a lot like realizing that a Pandaren DK exists as an NPC, and extrapolating this fact to suggest that Pandaren DK's comprise a force large enough to influence the larger narrative (similarly, Night Elf Paladins or Forsaken Paladins). Yes, non-HE or non-BE NPC's exist which are faction-tagged to their respective factions, no it's not likely to be indicative of anything meaningful.

And? I never discussed numbers. You said the Silver Covenant makes up the vast majority of all remaining High Elves. My counter point is that there is no information that suggests this is true. They may be the largest single gathering of existing High Elves, that doesn't mean they account for the vast majority of all High Elves because not all High Elves that still exist, or even not all HE that live in Dalaran, are part of the Silver Covenant.

I addressed this before, by altering my terminology from "Silver Covenant" to variations of "High Elves of Dalaran".

And while it is true there isn't any source which outright claims it, these High Elves of Dalaran are the only ones we've interacted with in any situation since Cataclysm (and in Cataclysm, this interaction was a result of the low-level world being remade, not these two lodges being relevant to the core narrative). Thus, while it's possible (albeit, unlikely) that the High Elves of Dalaran don't constitute a majority of the overall diaspora, they certainly represent the majority of all HE's who we get to interact with as Alliance players -- and as we're broadly discussing their circumstances to determine their plausibility as a playable faction, this is really all that matters.

I'm not debating whether they can or can't be the majority, I'm saying the existing information we have doesn't confirm the claim. As you yourself stated, it's speculative conjecture to discuss numbers. And, non named NPCs are not listed in any WoW data base you just see them walking around, so you can't use an NPC data base comparison to support the claim.

Truth. We can simply count the visible NPC's, however. This is what I came up with:

There are 14 High Elves at Quel'danil.
There are 27 High Elves at Quel'lithien, though they're all Wretched now.

There are 34 High Elves in Legion's Dalaran.
There are 53 High Elves in Northrend's Dalaran.
There are 25 High Elves in Crystalsong Forest.
I planned on counting Isle of Thunder, but alas, I'm bored of counting.

What we KNOW is that the High Elves are in diaspora, that the Silver Covenant is a large congregation of High Elves and that High Elves live in several Alliance cities...what we DON'T know is exactly how many High Elves aren't part of the Silver Covenant, exactly how many live elsewhere and therefore can't conclusively state that the Silver Covenant has a numerical majority.

And I agree with you, suggesting that the Silver Covenant represents the majority of the High Elves is probably not accurate. This is why when you made the point the first time, I re-posited that it might be more accurate to say High Elves that are culturally-aligned with Dalaran represent the majority of all existing High Elves -- because one thing we know for certain is that all of the High Elves living in/around Stormwind (and elsewhere, in Alliance-held territories) all came from Dalaran in the first place.

Also, the Gnomes and Trolls, and now Night Elves and Forsaken, don't lack a population center they lack a home. Their populations followed their leaders to where they are now. The High Elves scattered. That doesn't mean they can't or won't re congregate, but they didn't move as a unified High Elf population under a unified leadership like the Gnomes, Trolls, Night Elves and Forsaken did when they lost their homes.

That's a fair point.

[Katchii]

And I agree with you, suggesting that the Silver Covenant represents the majority of the High Elves is probably not accurate. This is why when you made the point the first time, I re-posited that it might be more accurate to say High Elves that are culturally-aligned with Dalaran represent the majority of all existing High Elves -- because one thing we know for certain is that all of the High Elves living in/around Stormwind (and elsewhere, in Alliance-held territories) all came from Dalaran in the first place.

That's a fair point.

We're mostly aligned on everything then, I think. Maybe disagreement or possibly misunderstanding on a few minor points, but otherwise thinking along the same lines.

[Strippling]

I just don't get what Blizzard's obsession is with blue/purple skin lol ... We may as well add the Chiss to the game at this point! I think, like we've both said, that adding more variety to Void Elf customization should make most people happier.

I think you mean "should make most high elf fans happier, whilst simultaneously upsetting a lot of Horde and Blood Elf players".

[Tyrathius]

I think you mean "should make most high elf fans happier, whilst simultaneously upsetting a lot of Horde and Blood Elf players".

That's fine. People who get upset because somebody else gets something that doesn't affect them at all are the worst kinds of people anyway.

[Grythletubs]

I think you mean "should make most high elf fans happier, whilst simultaneously upsetting a lot of Horde and Blood Elf players".

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

[Deleted]

IMO, I think it will be in well before that. My guess is that they are planning perhaps to allow Alliance Races to be on the Horde and vice-versa (keeping the faction lines intact, but letting people play with their friends without regard to race or faction) using some sort of end-of-expansion thing. From here, it's just a new face design and perhaps a different name tag for Alliance-based Blood Elves to call themselves High Elves.

Or when they remove factions and replace them by something else. Then it would not matter, if there are some Thalassian Elves out there with blue eyes.

- - - Updated - - -

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

It's not an Alliance race anymore. Blood Elves belong to the Horde for a longer time that the Horde was without them in the WoW game. They have made important contributions to Horde story and development, like bringing the Nightborne into the Horde. The High Elves in the Alliance are some exiles, not a race anymore. They left their homeland because of some kind of weird mana vegetarianism ideas, while the main body of the Thalassian Elves are Blood Elves now. There is not a second High Elf race, this is just a politican label. Void Elves are a race, because they have been altered by a cosmic force. High Elves are not.

[Obelisk Kai]

I brought them up simply because your argument is having to do with having an identical looking race with identical history etc... Since both factions have a literally identical race, the argument against having another one rings a bit shallow. Especially since the reasoning behind the split with HvA Pandaren is functionally identical to why there would be Blood Elves on the Horde and High Elves on the Alliance; political/ideological differences.



Again, I only brought it up to point out that the physical, in-game visual similarities already exist, so using that as an excuse not to do it is a shallow reason not to do it



All true, and I agree.



I agree with all of this.

But Pandaren have already set a precedent for being able to have the exact same race on both factions without compromising faction identity, with the only difference being their ideologies. If they were to implement Alliance High Elves, the only game play difference would be that they wouldn't start as neutral like the Pandaren. They could easily add some kind of text, or have their opening little cinematic experience/ intro quest that goes over why these elves are loyal to the Alliance rather than be named Blood Elves of the Horde.

I don't think they will ever do it, nor do I think they should given all the reasoning above, but they feasibly COULD if they wanted to since they have everything they need to feasibly justify it.

My counter-point regarding Pandaren though is that Blizzard seems to regard a neutral race available to both factions with an ideological division as a mistake. Using their existence as a justification does not make sense to me, as it implies that Blizzard should repeat the error despite it being an error. There are also major differences between the Pandaren and the thalassian elf situation, primarily that the Pandaren were introduced to both factions at the same time.

Like it or not, a sense of justified ownership over the High Elf theme, lore and aesthetic has now developed within the Horde, because they are themes, lore and aesthetic of a core Horde race because Blood Elves ARE High Elves. It is the same sense of ownership we feel over Undead or Goblin or Tauren or Orc or any other aspect of a Horde race, something that now comprises a unique part of Horde identity which would be diminished by being compelled to share it and that sense of identity is now nearly thirteen years old. No other faction specific race in the game faces this demand and it is fundamentally unfair to expect Horde players in general and Blood Elf players specifically to compromise their fantasy in this game to suit a small number of Alliance players who have not reconciled themselves to the reality of how the factions turned out in this game.

It is also worth remembering the impact Alliance High Elves would now have on Void Elves. Remember, Void Elves were created to give the Alliance a distinct thalassian elf variant in lieu of actual High Elves. Playable Alliance High Elves would damage Void Elves by undermining their role as the thalassian elves of the Alliance, and they would be marginalised by players who would prefer High Elf aesthetics over Void Elf looks.

It would also land us in the weird situation where the Alliance has access to two kind of thalassians, one of which is identical to a core Horde race, while the Horde only has one despite having the majority of the population by far. Would the Horde need yet another thalassian model to balance those scales? Four Elf races is already too much Elf, six would be ridiculous.

I have always agreed that Blizzard could do this if they wanted to. I just utterly disagree that Pandaren are any kind of precedent.

- - - Updated - - -

That's fine. People who get upset because somebody else gets something that doesn't affect them at all are the worst kinds of people anyway.

It is easier to defend the desire for playable High Elves rather than oppose them. Playable High Elves are a quantifiable result for the Alliance. Opposition is based on the abstract, the damage done by their addition to the integrity of the Horde and the Blood Elves.

Each faction consists of a multiplicity of races, each with a unique look, theme and story and which each compliment each other and work with each to forge a sense of faction identity. Duplicating a core Horde race to the Alliance damages the Horde as something that should be a unique experience within the Horde is made accessible to the other faction.

It also damages the Blood Elves, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves but if there was suddenly a group you could play in game that was listed as High Elves, that group would then be able to portray itself as the true High Elves (implicitly declaring the Blood Elves are not the High Elves) and they would then be able to redefine the concept of what a High Elf is and the Blood Elves would not, despite the Blood Elves clearly being the High Elves.

Now the objection is abstract, but those who claim they want the Alliance High Elves because of the lore are also basing their arguments in the abstract. If the lore and faction based objections are seen as meaningless by you then you are essentially admitting that this is the desire for the aesthetic of a pretty white elf with other pretty people in the Alliance. Which is a position I have no respect for at all.

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

The desire for High Elves is the desire to have access to a core Horde race without being Horde, which is unfair to the Horde and unfair to the Blood Elves because, and there is no way around it, Blood Elves ARE High Elves and the Alliance High Elves you want are basically Blood Elves with a different political opinion.

As long as the race you want isn't already playable by the Horde, I don't care what the Alliance could ask for. Sethrak, Ogres, Mok'Nathal, Half Elves, Tuskar...if you want any of that, go nuts and agitate and beg the developers. But a line must be drawn when it a desire for a race that is already playable on the other faction and it is a strawman argument to think Horde players just don't want the Alliance to have nice things. We don't want you to have what is already ours, which in a game where the factions are predicated on race and not ideology is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

[Katchii]

I have always agreed that Blizzard could do this if they wanted to. I just utterly disagree that Pandaren are any kind of precedent.

I'm not sure how you can disagree on them being a precedent. I understand your position, but they exist. Them being a "mistake" doesn't change that. I agree with everything else you said.

[Garfurion]

My counter-point regarding Pandaren though is that Blizzard seems to regard a neutral race available to both factions with an ideological division as a mistake. Using their existence as a justification does not make sense to me, as it implies that Blizzard should repeat the error despite it being an error. There are also major differences between the Pandaren and the thalassian elf situation, primarily that the Pandaren were introduced to both factions at the same time.

True, the High Elves were first shown in WoW as part of the Alliance

It is the same sense of ownership we feel over Undead or Goblin or Tauren or Orc or any other aspect of a Horde race, something that now comprises a unique part of Horde identity which would be diminished by being compelled to share it and that sense of identity is now nearly thirteen years old. No other faction specific race in the game faces this demand and it is fundamentally unfair to expect Horde players in general and Blood Elf players specifically to compromise their fantasy in this game to suit a small number of Alliance players who have not reconciled themselves to the reality of how the factions turned out in this game.

It is also worth remembering the impact Alliance High Elves would now have on Void Elves. Remember, Void Elves were created to give the Alliance a distinct thalassian elf variant in lieu of actual High Elves. Playable Alliance High Elves would damage Void Elves by undermining their role as the thalassian elves of the Alliance, and they would be marginalised by players who would prefer High Elf aesthetics over Void Elf looks.

Funny how all these reasons never seemed to be of any importance when Blood Elves were given to the Horde with the full knowledge and intend that it would affect faction balance and compromise several unique aspects of the Alliance identity at the time such as human like skin tones&models and the Paladin class.