M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[korijenkins]

I'll add my little story about how my +10 key got depleted.

Got the group going pretty quickly, dk tank ( male backpeddling blood elf obviously ) was very slow with his pulls, considering the fact that we had pretty good dps (20-22k dps on almost every pack all 3 of us ) i told the tank to pull faster as there was no need to stand there and waste time before every single pull, we weren't cc'ing anything anyway, his respond was "if you tell me what to do again i'll leave"... so obviously I and everyone else thought that he was joking, didn't pay attention to it.. kept going, fast forward 5 minutes later... we pulled a group and there is one wizard mob in the distance and i tell the tank to grip that mob because i had cooldown on silence... he stops for a second ( to read i guess ) and leaves the group.

I rarely leave groups when I tank, and I will never understand why so many tanks behave like they have a 10 foot rod planted firmly up their own ass. Tanking isn't hard, its not stressful, and it doesn't require many button presses. Despite that, tanks will continue to pretend they have the hardest role in dungeons and raids.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

M+ was specifically designed to attract and retain toxic players whose greatest achievement in life is their 20 minute attention spans.

It is a sort of containment unit, like 4chun it's entire existence is predicated on the principle of keeping toxic players out of raids.

In other news raiding has never been better or more competitive now that all the fat was trimmed away in Legion.

[Alvito]

for the love of god openraid was destroyed for a very good reason.
and the favoritism and open trollng of other players just because you could was it.

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How exactly does one look like a clown simply because they choose the more efficient play style and stick to it regardless of content? Are you suggesting that when I am out questing, all by my little lonesome, that I should put away my orbweaver and click the screen simply because it is lesser content?

It is overkill at that point, it is about the same as using a sledgehammer to drive in a push pin. Much like I had said with it being just like the guy talking strats before a LFR fetid pull, it isn't needed and often the ones that do it are just doing it because they saw somebody streaming a 17 do it. Treating a low key like something being pre planned and pushed at the level that was mentioned in the post I was replying to is overkill, but also 100% necessary for the higher level content. You don't do them the same ways though. Much like you wear swim trunks in a household pool but a scuba suit at 100 feet in the ocean, both are swimming but also not at all the same. Not that I want to ignore the insight you have with your solo mythic plus a +2.

[Chillside]

How, why or if raider.io matters changes based on luck, your class and role and what is being run. For someone like you if you just run the same 2 all the time at higher keys most will check how you have done in the dungeon being run not your overall score. If I am doing Waycrest 14 I want to know if someone has done that not how they did in a lower key in Kings Rest. If your sig is current your spec and item level are going to keep you off most peiples invite list. Most importantly if you are half as good as you claim to be you would have loads of people wanting to run with you again so you might be shifting blame from yourself onto anyone else.

raider.io doesn't show your individual contribution and that's very reason the entire system is very misleading ( not alawys, but sometimes ), but it's the only thing we've got so we don't any other choice but to trust it

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I rarely leave groups when I tank, and I will never understand why so many tanks behave like they have a 10 foot rod planted firmly up their own ass. Tanking isn't hard, its not stressful, and it doesn't require many button presses. Despite that, tanks will continue to pretend they have the hardest role in dungeons and raids.

Unfortunately yes, they will continue doing that, just because they can get away with it. I'd like to see their reaction if you make tank in a ~12 year old environment, where you actually had to try ( sometimes really hard ) to maintain the threat

[Kerathul]

for the love of god openraid was destroyed for a very good reason.
and the favoritism and open trollng of other players just because you could was it.

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How exactly does one look like a clown simply because they choose the more efficient play style and stick to it regardless of content? Are you suggesting that when I am out questing, all by my little lonesome, that I should put away my orbweaver and click the screen simply because it is lesser content?

Well I believe a reputation system could work, if worked out correctly, like I also stated in my previous post. Just because it is not airtight you can simply throw an idea overboard.

Because this whole in the 1.6k+ ladder are no retards.

Boy let me tell you something regarding my last 6 groups, keep in mind I don't say stuff as I seriously dont want to antagonize people anymore. Last group we were in a +15 AD. It all went fine, druid made one mistake at Rezan by running in a wrong direction, he placed himself badly. So 2 raptors spawned. We had 2 zerg AoE classes with us so the raptors were dead in literally seconds.

Naturally this didn't hold off the tank to spew his autism all over in the partychat. Calling the druid healer all bad things. The healer didn't respond much and told him, yeah sorry my mistake. Still the tank didn't hold off with the spewing. I literally wanted to printscreen this conversation and post it here for you all to see that this 2k score dude was so pissed off for no reason.

Naturally the group disbanded even before we would come to Volkaal. There was literally no reason for this group to disband.

This has been my 6th attempt this expansion to make a group for higher m+ groups, and all 6 of them have been disbanded. Inb4 haha must be you then. I barely talk and I know the tactics and routes.


To summerize, a rep system would in my opinion be a good idea, if it could be made so that you cannot abuse the system, there are probably ways addon makers could implement such a thing.

[ID811717]

I literally wanted to printscreen this conversation and post it here for you all to see that this 2k score dude was so pissed off for no reason.

But why didn't you ask your group to join discord?
I can remember only 2 runs out of hundreds that I did over the past ~1.5 years where someone made drama and rage quit from a group with voice comms. That includes a large fraction of runs with complete strangers. They are all people. Get them on voice comms and you will have an easier time understanding each other.

[Saverem]

It's not elitist if I'm looking for people who actually know what they are doing and increase my chance of keying a high level dungeon. I guarantee right now that the ONLY people who think raider.io is for "elitists" are college students or younger who haven't tasted the reality of life. You think the real world will treat you with love and bias as your parents do? Reality check, there are no "safe spaces" people don't give a shit about you. You have to EARN your way in life and this also includes this game.

The best way to determine whether a complete stranger has a good chance to be good at a high key is by checking their raider.io. I will NOT get some 300 io scrub to do a +12 TD. If you think that makes me elitist then prepare to get slapped in the face by the real world when you leave school and mommy is no longer there to hold your hand.

[ID811717]

I guarantee right now that the ONLY people who think raider.io is for "elitists" are college students or younger who haven't tasted the reality of life. You think the real world will treat you with love and bias as your parents do? Reality check, there are no "safe spaces" people don't give a shit about you. You have to EARN your way in life and this also includes this game.

This goes against my intuition. I would think that the younger people should be more competitive, and able to dump more time into achieving things in games. I think it's the old veterans in their 30-ies with family and job are the ones who would claim they were once young and good, but now 10 years later no one trusts their skills anymore.

[Saverem]

This goes against my intuition. I would think that the younger people should be more competitive, and able to dump more time into achieving things in games. I think it's the old veterans in their 30-ies with family and job are the ones who would claim they were once young and good, but now 10 years later no one trusts their skills anymore.

I'm the old vet in my 30s with my own business and over 1200 io score, both earned through putting in effort. I find it hard to believe that people who have actually seen what the job market is like and how hard that shit really is would be crying for handouts in a video game.

[Deleted]

I rarely leave groups when I tank, and I will never understand why so many tanks behave like they have a 10 foot rod planted firmly up their own ass. Tanking isn't hard, its not stressful, and it doesn't require many button presses. Despite that, tanks will continue to pretend they have the hardest role in dungeons and raids.

Tank and healer are easily the ones with the most responsibility in a m+. You dont need great dps for a +18, however i can guarantee you that the tank and the healer has to be.("great" is up for interpretation). On lower keys, id say pretty much nothing is "stressful".

"Not many buttons", you play a tank bear? Or ever taken a look at a havoc DH actionbar?

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As a shadow priest I have 387ilvl, 8/8M, 1600Rio, world first dht30 in time in Legion. Rank 1 on warcraft logs.

Got declined from a +10 today, 'sry dont need a shadow'

My guess is that people who are doing 10s this late in the tier doesnt use the ingame addon, or even know what io is IF that is any comfort :-)

[Jervaise]

I am sick to death of the attitude of people in keys.

HOT TIP - choose your team wisely. Because for that key that is your TEAM. If you lay abuse on your team then expect a walk out.

I was in a key today with absolute scrub 320 trash doing 2-4k dps. I didn't say a single word to anyone messing up. I just go about my job of healing. We get to the bridge in shrine where you LOS the electric dude and the 320 dps falls over like a sack. He then says UMMMMM DISPELL???? DO MONKS NOT HAVE DISPELL??

I'm like wait wait hold up buddy... for starters u can go around the corner and LOS. For seconds I wouldn't care if I missed a dispel at all... don't talk to me like that when I'm here 365 healing you and carrying you. I hadn't opened my mouth once when they fail to stand in wards, when they do low dps, when they pull the wrong things, when I get aggro.

So you know what I did? I bailed on the key. I'm gonna do that from now on so people out there take note. Treat your team with respect or don't be surprised if we bail. I have seen some absolute filthy abuse in keys and I always stick to my policy of never leaving. Not anymore. I simply do not need anything in game that badly.

You should have dispelled him though, that hits hard.

[Deja Thoris]

You should have dispelled him though, that hits hard.

Agreed, the dude you quoted's attitude is "your gears shit, I'm carrying you!" (Even though I'm fucking up basic stuff I'm carrying you cos I'm 365!) People are so far up their own arses they can't be objective. Dispelling on that mob is top prio, not doing it just screams baddie.

[Loli-Knight]

I'm not particularly surprised at the notion. Anything competitive has the potential to gather up a toxic playerbase. Though, once you add something like a timer onto it I've found players get even worse about it. Personally I've gotten around it by just running with a guild group, but I can see why it'd be a nightmare with pugs. Pugs obviously rely on IO score a lot more, so they naturally become far more strict on what they'll accept. Granted, half the time it's something absurd (like 1000 score for a +8), but that's a deep rabbit hole to go down.

[Hightotemz]

I would still say M+ is a great addition to the game and has given people something challenging to do outside of raiding content.

I have noticed once you start pushing passed +13 keys the tolerance levels is really low for any mistakes. 1 wipe and the group will disband with words like retards being thrown everywhere to players that are probably already in the top 0.1%. I mean to call a player a retard or whatever when they have a +1300 IO score is pretty crazy.

I have found the most pleasant runs being between +8 and +11, people in the range are generally more patience and accepting of failure.

Then you get the other problem, if your not a BDK/BM (Tank) - DH, Rogue, Mage, Boomkin (DPS) - MW, HP, DISC (Healer) you can forget about playing in > +14 range in pugs. Shamans have to go with a guild group because even if they have a high raider.io, they will never be accepted into a high level pug key.

So bring the class matters more then bring the player at very high key levels.

For my spec as a WW monk I am top 400 in the world at just under 1300 raider.io. A DH in my guild at 1,588 is not even top 1000. Yet Windwalkers are getting single target nerfs next week and DH are getting a GCD removed... go figure.

[kamuimac]

It is overkill at that point, it is about the same as using a sledgehammer to drive in a push pin. Much like I had said with it being just like the guy talking strats before a LFR fetid pull, it isn't needed and often the ones that do it are just doing it because they saw somebody streaming a 17 do it. Treating a low key like something being pre planned and pushed at the level that was mentioned in the post I was replying to is overkill, but also 100% necessary for the higher level content. You don't do them the same ways though. Much like you wear swim trunks in a household pool but a scuba suit at 100 feet in the ocean, both are swimming but also not at all the same. Not that I want to ignore the insight you have with your solo mythic plus a +2.

and this could be solved quite easily

they shouls just scrap most of "intermidiate" difficulties in mythic +

remove timer and keep only liek every 5th "difficulty " stage.

then people would have much "clearer" progression "path "

for example then +2 would be current +5 and people would know they can be relatively chill but +3 would be current +10 and people would know that they either come in there with hardcore attitude or they have nothing to look for

there was never need to milion difficulty modes in first place

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I would still say M+ is a great addition to the game and has given people something challenging to do outside of raiding content.

I have noticed once you start pushing passed +13 keys the tolerance levels is really low for any mistakes. 1 wipe and the group will disband with words like retards being thrown everywhere to players that are probably already in the top 0.1%. I mean to call a player a retard or whatever when they have a +1300 IO score is pretty crazy.

I have found the most pleasant runs being between +8 and +11, people in the range are generally more patience and accepting of failure.

Then you get the other problem, if your not a BDK/BM (Tank) - DH, Rogue, Mage, Boomkin (DPS) - MW, HP, DISC (Healer) you can forget about playing in > +14 range in pugs. Shamans have to go with a guild group because even if they have a high raider.io, they will never be accepted into a high level pug key.

So bring the class matters more then bring the player at very high key levels.

For my spec as a WW monk I am top 400 in the world at just under 1300 raider.io. A DH in my guild at 1,588 is not even top 1000. Yet Windwalkers are getting single target nerfs next week and DH are getting a GCD removed... go figure.

and i rememeber people here rejoicing that "homogenization" is finaly over and that "class fantasy" matters again .

your people rip what you sow.

[Ange]

they shouls just scrap most of "intermidiate" difficulties in mythic +

remove timer and keep only liek every 5th "difficulty " stage.

then people would have much "clearer" progression "path "

for example then +2 would be current +5 and people would know they can be relatively chill but +3 would be current +10 and people would know that they either come in there with hardcore attitude or they have nothing to look for

there was never need to milion difficulty modes in first place

???

There is no difficulty without a time constrain / soft enrage mechanic. What would you do in a raid without enrage mechanic - you would just stack more healer till you beat the boss. Where is the difficulty in that?

And whats wrong with the endless keyprogression we have now? We allready have noob-friendly CLEAR PATHS with the amount of affixes in each +difficulty.
The whole X+1 key path is there to allow noobs a steady progression and not hitting a progressionwall after the first difficulty mode and you even have the weekly keys as another easy mode, so you don't have to repeat your progression, you can just continue each week.

I don't understand your suggestion, since we allready got that model in game with babysteps for each difficulty to make the system as casual friendly as possible.

[ID811717]

I have noticed once you start pushing passed +13 keys the tolerance levels is really low for any mistakes. 1 wipe and the group will disband with words like retards being thrown everywhere to players that are probably already in the top 0.1%. I mean to call a player a retard or whatever when they have a +1300 IO score is pretty crazy.

I have found the most pleasant runs being between +8 and +11, people in the range are generally more patience and accepting of failure.

I can believe +13s being very toxic, but as soon as you go just a bit higher (perhaps 16+), things become a lot more mature and fun. My experience throughout multiple M+ seasons is exactly the same as described here:

I feel sad for those who are stuck around +10's.

Whenever I try to do a +10 for my alt, I encounter the most rudeness and incompetence.

Whenever I try to push a 15/16 I find the politest and the most knowledgeable.

Usually go on discord, discuss tactics & pulls and end up having new m+ buddies. Even if you don't add people as friends (which I mostly do), you see the same faces queuing up for high keys. It's almost like the vanilla times, where you know people and you keep seeing them around.

I'm not even remotely close to being among the best in the m+ scene. I just try pushing higher, and end up playing with those who have a similar mentality.

If raider.io was not around, I would have stopped playing a long time ago.

This is so true, I do 15-17 keys usually, sometimes when the stars align an 18, and most runs end up with people adding each other on friends, asking each other to play and in general it's like a mini community.

I mainly play a tank, and my worst experience is always trying to do my weekly 10 on my alt tanks, people flame and "advice" me all the time, on things they have nooo idea how they work, had some guy yesterday calling me retarded for not mindcontrolling a mob on my DK tank alt, while it was bolstered.

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Then you get the other problem, if your not a BDK/BM (Tank) - DH, Rogue, Mage, Boomkin (DPS) - MW, HP, DISC (Healer) you can forget about playing in > +14 range in pugs. Shamans have to go with a guild group because even if they have a high raider.io, they will never be accepted into a high level pug key.

So bring the class matters more then bring the player at very high key levels.

For my spec as a WW monk I am top 400 in the world at just under 1300 raider.io. A DH in my guild at 1,588 is not even top 1000. Yet Windwalkers are getting single target nerfs next week and DH are getting a GCD removed... go figure.

You are right. There are valid reasons why certain classes are in M+ meta, like certain affixes and dungeons where meta choices are really preferable. But most players take it to the extreme, and just automatically reject non-meta specs without actually understanding which specs and comps are good for a particular key and affixes. It sucks having to reroll every season in order to have access to high level M+ pugs.

P.S. The meta specs you listed do not look right. Especially tanks and healers.

[ydraw]

This is so true, I do 15-17 keys usually, sometimes when the stars align an 18, and most runs end up with people adding each other on friends, asking each other to play and in general it's like a mini community.

Well obviously.

If you're regularly doing +16s/17s in time then you're like top 500 worldwide, of course people at that level are going to enjoy playing with other players of that quality.

This does not in any way represent most people's experience in M+ though.

[Hightotemz]

You are right. There are valid reasons why certain classes are in M+ meta, like certain affixes and dungeons where meta choices are really preferable. But most players take it to the extreme, and just automatically reject non-meta specs without actually understanding which specs and comps are good for a particular key and affixes. It sucks having to reroll every season in order to have access to high level M+ pugs.

P.S. The meta specs you listed do not look right. Especially tanks and healers.

It's mainly the specs that get accepted at higher keys and certain dungeons. I would say the ultimate comp is BDK, Rogue, Demon Hunter, Mage and MW.

The thing is no spec is really that unique anymore, shamans for instance gave up their utility but suck when it comes to mobility and keeping up in dps. The earth elemental can save a wipe every 5 minutes but besides that not much else going for it in M+

[judgementofantonidas]

It is overkill at that point, it is about the same as using a sledgehammer to drive in a push pin. Much like I had said with it being just like the guy talking strats before a LFR fetid pull, it isn't needed and often the ones that do it are just doing it because they saw somebody streaming a 17 do it. Treating a low key like something being pre planned and pushed at the level that was mentioned in the post I was replying to is overkill, but also 100% necessary for the higher level content. You don't do them the same ways though. Much like you wear swim trunks in a household pool but a scuba suit at 100 feet in the ocean, both are swimming but also not at all the same. Not that I want to ignore the insight you have with your solo mythic plus a +2.

Not sure what you are implying with the last statement as I have run much higher mythic plus in the past. I do not enjoy this expansions's dungeons. It took a very low level of mythic plus to determine that. You have said nothing to support jumping on my laptop, clicking the screen, and finding other ways to reduce "my" level of play simply because I step into easier content.

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Well I believe a reputation system could work, if worked out correctly, like I also stated in my previous post. Just because it is not airtight you can simply throw an idea overboard.

Because this whole in the 1.6k+ ladder are no retards.

Boy let me tell you something regarding my last 6 groups, keep in mind I don't say stuff as I seriously dont want to antagonize people anymore. Last group we were in a +15 AD. It all went fine, druid made one mistake at Rezan by running in a wrong direction, he placed himself badly. So 2 raptors spawned. We had 2 zerg AoE classes with us so the raptors were dead in literally seconds.

Naturally this didn't hold off the tank to spew his autism all over in the partychat. Calling the druid healer all bad things. The healer didn't respond much and told him, yeah sorry my mistake. Still the tank didn't hold off with the spewing. I literally wanted to printscreen this conversation and post it here for you all to see that this 2k score dude was so pissed off for no reason.

Naturally the group disbanded even before we would come to Volkaal. There was literally no reason for this group to disband.

This has been my 6th attempt this expansion to make a group for higher m+ groups, and all 6 of them have been disbanded. Inb4 haha must be you then. I barely talk and I know the tactics and routes.


To summerize, a rep system would in my opinion be a good idea, if it could be made so that you cannot abuse the system, there are probably ways addon makers could implement such a thing.

The best reputation system was the original reputation system. You built a reputation on your server based on what people from your server witnessed personally. Cross server funtionality did not improve the game and in many ways is nothing more than a burden that forces people to play with others they would rather not even know.