Poll: Should the players be "punished" for killing low level characters in the warmode?

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  1. #681
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Let's actually think about this for a second:

    1) You fought but you still lost. Maybe because the person was better than you, or because there were mobs.
    2) There was more than 1 person attacking you.
    3) Maybe another person from your faction joined in spontaneously because they were there, and the ganker got his friends to retaliate.
    4) You need help tracking down a rogue or druid using stealth.

    It's not always just about being an ass long and hard enough to provoke a response.



    You wouldn't need to. You could just fight. No extra step required. No traveling from wherever your main is. No need to waste time trying to figure out where the ganker is.

    You just fight. Why is that a problem?




    What? Non-sequitur. Explain this, because it doesn't make any sense.




    So by that logic the person with better gear should ALWAYS be entitled to win? Like it's some kind of right you've earned by farming gear? This logic makes no sense to me. You seem to believe that your level and gear should determine victory instead of player skill.

    It's player vs player. Not gear vs gear. And while equipment and talent choices can determine playstyle, it should be the more skilled player who wins, not just who has the better gear. Otherwise Mythic raiders would always win, and your ability to fight would be determined by your PVE progression instead of your PVP skills.



    And this is why it's toxic. It's foundation is based in hate and salt. Why is that a good thing? Act this way in any other part of the game and Blizzard shuts it down. Spew hate or bile into any forum, chat channel, or group and you'll get slapped by a GM. But somehow because it's an RP reason, it's ok?

    Not to mention the RP effect could just as easily be accomplished by simply fighting other players roughly your same level. Why is creating a situation where one player literally can't fight back required? I'll answer that for you: It's not.

    People just like ganking because it gives them a little sadistic jolt of glee. It makes them feel powerful because they had control over another player for a little bit. And then it makes them the center of attention when people are forced to log onto mains to deal with them(which again gives them a tiny form of control over another player). And so they make up all kinds of excuses and rationalizations to keep doing it.

    Because if they were actually interested in real wPVP they'd be in capped zones seeking capped players to fight, not bottom feeding in low level areas with the intent to piss people off.
    Just a hint to the RP-part:

    Killing low level characters is as perfect in RP as it can get in a war scenario. You deny your enemy the reinforcements. There is no need for any other reason. If you are able to kill some recruits before they accomplish their training, then you save yourself and your faction the higher danger of combating better troops. Simple as that. Not really honourful, but it's a war.

    World PvP never has been balanced, though I had some really cool PvP encounters and group battles back then in TBC and WotLK. If people are free to go anywhere their level lets them go, then they will be there. And if you are not able to organise a defense, then you lose. If you cannot handle that, then you should not use warmode. This is not for people like you, really. Ignore the XP bonus and move on. If you want to get PvP experience while leveling with some kind of fair terms, use BGs. If you just want to level, then go quest and do dungeons in PvE mode. It's not like you don't have any alternatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I don't want the bonus. I want world pvp. If you read most of my posts in this thread, I continuously say the bonus needs to be removed, and that tripling the alliance buff was a really bad idea.
    You know that wPvP had ganking from the start, and that Blizzard never did anything about that? Who in their sane mind would think that they will do now?

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    If you cannot handle that,
    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "you" in the general sense, and not me specifically. Because I both jave a history of playing harder pvp games than wow, and main horde. Dealing with being ganked is not some personal crisis for me. My interest is purely in supporting a better environment for PVP.

  3. #683
    Why does opting into world pvp suddenly give a bonus in the first place?

  4. #684
    I dunno about punishments, but I agreed with someone who posted an idea in one of the war mode threads a week or so ago that there should be level brackets limiting how low level a player you can gank. I don't think the purpose of war mode was to promote corpse camping of level 30s by basement-dwelling virgins on max level characters with nothing better to do than ruin the night of someone who has an hour to level after work. Sure, you can turn WM off (and that is a HUGE improvement from the old system; I had a contented smile on my face as I turned off WM forever on my 2 110s from my old pvp server on which I had leveled with friends in Vanilla) but it still sucks to have to choose between getting corpse camped for 10% bonus xp or going full carebear mode. I also think there should be a system in general that prevents killing someone over and over again, but I recognize that that would ruin actual world pvp and there'd be no way to effectively implement it.

    I've been leveling with WM on on my alts from 110-120 and haven't run into too many problems early on, but I find that when I do get engaged in PvP it's not a 114 attacking my 112 or whatever which I really wouldn't mind, it's Mouthbreather McGee and his posse of 4-39 friends who shitstomp me repeatedly til I give up and hearth and do some IE's or just play a different character.
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    me: wow, why am I tired and feel like shit?
    body: coffee is not a meal, drink some water
    body: eat a vegetable.
    body: sleep
    me: I guess we'll never know
    body: oh my god.

  5. #685
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant "you" in the general sense, and not me specifically. Because I both jave a history of playing harder pvp games than wow, and main horde. Dealing with being ganked is not some personal crisis for me. My interest is purely in supporting a better environment for PVP.
    Of course. It was a general statement, nothing personal. Also, I don't see myself as part of the "git gud" crew. I know that you don't have a chance against a group on your own, or against a max level character while leveling. And while I can pvp decently on my main, probably on some alts, I am really not a pro in this regard, which is precisely the reason why I don't even think about toggling warmode on.

    I just think that people should decide what is important to them, and bear the consequences. Either risk being ganked, or lose out on the warmode bonus. And if warmode as a feature starts losing players no matter how many bonuses they throw at us, this would be a better reason for them to rework the feature completely, than any complaining in forums will do. I remember the effect of a massive player backlash from the Cataclysm heroic dungeons (whatever stance people have on that matter). I am sure they have internal measures for participation rates in different activities.

    I would also welcome a better world pvp environment, but for me, it has to be quite different from the one we have in pve in terms of activities design - not just a pvp mode slapped on pve activities. I don't want these two worlds to mix. I would want a "wargame" simulation in pvp, without any pve distractions. Like a sandbox BG spanning a whole zone, where different objectives pop up and go when resolved, depending on player activity in the specific place. Also, intelligent grouping similar to the world events in GW2. And to encourage people to go to zones appropriate to their levels, only give out rewards in fitting zones.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CynicalPenguin View Post
    Why does opting into world pvp suddenly give a bonus in the first place?
    Because devs probably want to bribe people to participate in Warmode since they fear that a big majority would not do it otherwise. I really would like to know how many people would have moved from a pvp server to a pve one if they would have offered free server transfers for this specific exchange.
    Last edited by mmoceb1073a651; 2018-12-04 at 02:56 PM.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Whatever subjective "thrill" you want to get, that doesn't change the simple fact that WPVP in wow is badly designed and poorly implemented.
    Punishing players for killing other low level players is not the solution though.

  7. #687
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Just a hint to the RP-part:

    Killing low level characters is as perfect in RP as it can get in a war scenario. You deny your enemy the reinforcements. There is no need for any other reason. If you are able to kill some recruits before they accomplish their training, then you save yourself and your faction the higher danger of combating better troops. Simple as that. Not really honourful, but it's a war.

    World PvP never has been balanced, though I had some really cool PvP encounters and group battles back then in TBC and WotLK. If people are free to go anywhere their level lets them go, then they will be there. And if you are not able to organise a defense, then you lose. If you cannot handle that, then you should not use warmode. This is not for people like you, really. Ignore the XP bonus and move on. If you want to get PvP experience while leveling with some kind of fair terms, use BGs. If you just want to level, then go quest and do dungeons in PvE mode. It's not like you don't have any alternatives.

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    You know that wPvP had ganking from the start, and that Blizzard never did anything about that? Who in their sane mind would think that they will do now?
    I have no issues with ganking, I have issues with griefing, which was made easier for griefers to do with Warmode. Sharding and lack of Alliance mean its a lot harder for low levels to call for help or swap to mains when they're getting camped, and the bonus exp acts as a lure to bring in unsuspecting victims. Yes, theres a warning when you enter Warmode, but most newbs aren't going to expect to be camped. I'm sure they expect to be killed by a high level coming through, but not getting camped for 45 mins by someone who just one shots them. This type of anti-social behavior is off the radar of most people.

    And I've had this conversation with someone else already. Just because this is how things have been since the start, doesn't mean discussion shouldn't happen to try to change it. I'm of the belief that Blizzards hands off policy is more about saving time/money than anything, there are plenty overly sensitive people who would abuse reports in Wpvp and call anything "camping" and try to get people banned. A lot of MMOs feature things that prevent high levels from killing low levels, WoW is actually in the minority in this area, Warhammer online turned you into a chicken and let the low level kill you if you attacked them. Other game developers clearly see it as an issue, even in "PVP" games. It's simply not fun for one side, at least a semi-even level gank has some fighting and both sides get to do something.

    The biggest thing is, I want to use warmode to wpvp, and just to wpvp. That's significantly harder for Alliance to do now with warmode compared to pvp servers. 9/10 times we're in a massively imbalanced fight, it wasn't like this on PVP servers, and if it got that bad you could at least transfer servers. Now, I just have to hope I get a good shard or no Wpvp for me. That's not good design. The buff is to blame for a large part of these issues. It needs to go. PVP servers never had this bonus before.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2018-12-04 at 05:00 PM.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Either risk being ganked, or lose out on the warmode bonus.
    I guess the entire point of the thread is to question why the equation has to include a risk that's so far out of proportion with the reward, and why engaging in such behavior has zero consequence. And when I say "reward", I mean either winning a potential fight with another player or the bonus exp, either one or both.

    Why is ganking of low level characters(one of the lowest, most useless forms of "pvp") even allowed in the first place? Just because "that's how it's always been" isn't a compelling reason. Many other games handle exposing players to the risk of PVP much better than this. Even EVE online, the game known for it's hardcore PVP nature and allowance for just about ANY form of PVP, has mechanics in place to create at least SOME risk for people engaging in the shitty behavior of attacking low-end players.

    Back when PVP servers were first released along with PVE servers in vanilla, there was at least a social structure in place to regulate and give context for ganking. But with the advent of cross-realm tech, sharding, server transfers, and phasing, none of that applies. And yet PVP servers have not had their rule-set revisited until now with War Mode. And I'm sorry, but simply saying "deal with shitty assholes and trolls or don't PVP" isn't a good answer, even if it IS the reality of WPVP right now.

    WoW's open world PVP should be better than this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garretdejiko View Post
    Punishing players for killing other low level players is not the solution though.
    And punishing low level players for turning on war mode is?

    Because that's what subjecting them to fighting unmitigated capped players is doing.

    The goal here is not to punish people for engaging in PVP, but to mitigate the worst behaviors amd promote a better environment. Whether that involves scaling players, or phasing them based on level, or something else, I don't care so long as steps in the right direction are taken.

    War Mode is a good first step away from the idiocy of pvp servers. But it's only a first step, and doesn't make up for thebstep backwards away from the previous social consequences server reputation imposed before CRZ and other systems made players super anonymous.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2018-12-04 at 09:03 PM.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And punishing low level players for turning on war mode is?

    Because that's what subjecting them to fighting unmitigated capped players is doing.

    The goal here is not to punish people for engaging in PVP, but to mitigate the worst behaviors amd promote a better environment. Whether that involves scaling players, or phasing them based on level, or something else, I don't care so long as steps in the right direction are taken.

    War Mode is a good first step away from the idiocy of pvp servers. But it's only a first step, and doesn't make up for thebstep backwards away from the previous social consequences server reputation imposed before CRZ and other systems made players super anonymous.
    Its not punishing, its one of the risks. If the risk is so far out of proportion then why do people feel like they should be in warmode? If you know that you're losing out on time by a large margin then why do it in the first place? the answer is, it isn't even close to being as big of a problem as people make it to be. Getting killed couple times by high levels during leveling is still not going to outweight the benefit of warmode.

    Mitigating "worst behavior" is subjective, as we've been through in these conversations. War Mode works just as it should and removing people/making brackets would just make it, in my opinion, a worse system. If you want those fair-ish, scripted battlegrounds then go do those.

    PvP servers before CRZ were the peak of World PvP because of the community within them. You knew who you were facing or who killed you, where those people usually hanged out in order for you to get revenge etc. people couldn't chicken out of PvP by turning it off in major city (one of the reasons why War Mode buff exists). Things had permanency instead of this instant gratification games currently have, which in my opinion is making them worse and WoW is still going in the wrong direction.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    If a high level tries to kill you more than once or twice, they should be punished. It's a pvp server, it happens every now and then when high levels are passing by, but being on a pvp server isn't an excuse for griefing and specifically hunting people who have absolutely no chance of fighting back.
    Unfortunately this was ALWAYS how it worked. The answer Blizzard has given to fix this from being forced onto it with PvP servers is that you can just turn the PvP off. Honestly, while it's a douchey thing to do, you're taking the risk being a lv20 with Warmode on.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  11. #691
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Unfortunately this was ALWAYS how it worked. The answer Blizzard has given to fix this from being forced onto it with PvP servers is that you can just turn the PvP off. Honestly, while it's a douchey thing to do, you're taking the risk being a lv20 with Warmode on.
    For about the third time in this thread. What does it matter that this has always been this way? Does that mean we shouldn't have discussions on it? That I shouldn't try to change it? Most other MMOs don't allow this sort of behavior. WoW does. I'm inclined to believe it's simply because they know how much more they'd need in terms of Customer Service staff to cover the added tickets, there's little other reason I can see, allowing this sort of behavior doesn't promote good game play.

    And one major point I'd like to point out is that Warmode has made griefing easier and safer compared to pvp servers. I can't swap to my main 90% of the time due to sharding, and the desolate population Alliance side means its incredibly unlikely that a high level will come to my aid. And with servers we could choose servers with a more balanced population or with a populations more skewed towards your favor if you wanted to. Now we can't, pray for a good shard or you don't get to do anything fun.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    For about the third time in this thread. What does it matter that this has always been this way? Does that mean we shouldn't have discussions on it? That I shouldn't try to change it? Most other MMOs don't allow this sort of behavior. WoW does. I'm inclined to believe it's simply because they know how much more they'd need in terms of Customer Service staff to cover the added tickets, there's little other reason I can see, allowing this sort of behavior doesn't promote good game play.

    And one major point I'd like to point out is that Warmode has made griefing easier and safer compared to pvp servers. I can't swap to my main 90% of the time due to sharding, and the desolate population Alliance side means its incredibly unlikely that a high level will come to my aid. And with servers we could choose servers with a more balanced population or with a populations more skewed towards your favor if you wanted to. Now we can't, pray for a good shard or you don't get to do anything fun.
    The thing is, they DID change it. You have the ability to opt out of Warmode, aka world pvp. Outside of that no changes are going to happen for a long while because they're promoting Risk vs Reward, you're not being forced to pick Warmode, you're choosing to play in Warmode. In the same regard that means you're CHOOSING to risk that a 120 might swoop down while they're flying to Stratholm to kill you in Eastern Plaguelands. You make it sound like you have no choice in the matter, you either allow yourself to be griefed or you turn off Warmode, it's as simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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    Zyky is better than you.

  13. #693
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    The thing is, they DID change it. You have the ability to opt out of Warmode, aka world pvp. Outside of that no changes are going to happen for a long while because they're promoting Risk vs Reward, you're not being forced to pick Warmode, you're choosing to play in Warmode. In the same regard that means you're CHOOSING to risk that a 120 might swoop down while they're flying to Stratholm to kill you in Eastern Plaguelands. You make it sound like you have no choice in the matter, you either allow yourself to be griefed or you turn off Warmode, it's as simple as that.
    So my options are now: Super shitty massively unbalanced PVP or no PVP.

    Before my options were: Super unbalanced shitty pvp, transfer servers and be on the super unbalanced side, or no PVP.

    See my issue? The alliance has no option for Wpvp unless we get lucky with sharding. How is that a good system? And you haven't exactly addressed how leveling on PVP servers was tolerable due to having higher levels to help. Alliance warmode is pretty desolate, I highly doubt the few Alliance around want to waste time for 1-2 kills because griefers only grief because they can't PVP so as soon as competition shows up they just vanish.

    Also ffs, I've said a million times in this thread alone, getting killed once or twice by a 120 passing through IS NOT THE PROBLEM. That's just ganking. Not griefing. Griefing is when that 120 sits on your corpse for 45 mins killing you every time you rez. That's not fun, and shouldn't be allowable behavior.

    Also no, they still allow griefers to do their thing. Nothing changed in that regard. Actually, Warmode made it easier.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2018-12-05 at 06:53 AM.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    So my options are now: Super shitty massively unbalanced PVP or no PVP.

    Before my options were: Super unbalanced shitty pvp, transfer servers and be on the super unbalanced side, or no PVP.
    So basically you're mad at Blizzard that they removed the forced feeling of being stuck on a PvP server and removed the forced feeling of having to change servers because of it. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    See my issue? The alliance has no option for Wpvp unless we get lucky with sharding. How is that a good system? And you haven't exactly addressed how leveling on PVP servers was tolerable due to having higher levels to help. Alliance warmode is pretty desolate, I highly doubt the few Alliance around want to waste time for 1-2 kills because griefers only grief because they can't PVP so as soon as competition shows up they just vanish.
    There is no issue, you're MAKING an issue when you have a FREE option to turn off Warmode for leveling. In terms of wanting World PvP, I RARELY run into groups of horde players. And being a MultiGlad Alliance player I have little issues dealing with the occasional 1v2. Most of the time I win, sometimes I lose which is fine. I have YET to run into griefing this expansion. There is next to no large groups on Warmode shards and since the last update on fixing sharding, specifically for Warmode shards, it's been less frequent that an entire zone is dominated by a single faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    Also ffs, I've said a million times in this thread alone, getting killed once or twice by a 120 passing through IS NOT THE PROBLEM. That's just ganking. Not griefing. Griefing is when that 120 sits on your corpse for 45 mins killing you every time you rez. That's not fun, and shouldn't be allowable behavior.

    Also no, they still allow griefers to do their thing. Nothing changed in that regard. Actually, Warmode made it easier.
    Griefers are a VERY rare occurrence, basically you want to force a change onto the community the same way butthurt individuals whined about Master Loot. I really hope Blizzard doesn't do anything because if you pick Warmode, you're making the CONSCIOUS choice to opt into being farm killed if that's what someone else wants to do with their time and their $15 a month.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiffums View Post
    Did people not realize this is what life was like on PvP servers? Did people not think getting lumped into a shard with people who have played on PvP servers for the last 14 years would be like this. Guess what sunshine......PvP servers have always been like this and WarMode is the new PvP server.
    And PvP servers never needed bonuses or be a prerequisite for getting some of your gutted spec talents back, so why now?

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post

    Also ffs, I've said a million times in this thread alone, getting killed once or twice by a 120 passing through IS NOT THE PROBLEM. That's just ganking. Not griefing. Griefing is when that 120 sits on your corpse for 45 mins killing you every time you rez. That's not fun, and shouldn't be allowable behavior.
    Many people in this thread don't bother to see the whole picture - they read few words in the main post,pull them out of context and already start to post a reply such as "get good"; "turn the warmode off"; "stop crying". Nobody bothers to understand that actually there are people who:
    1)want to participate in the World PvP against the enemies of their own level;
    2)don't have warmode enabled only to get some cheap 10% xp;
    3)don't agree,that being ganked for hours by some no-lifers is "fun" and an "essential part of the World PvP".
    Last edited by Felixon; 2018-12-05 at 07:58 AM.

  17. #697
    All this crying about getting ganked, I'm assuming no one made the mistake of making a character on a PvP server. They finally give you a way out that doesn't cost $25 per character, and we cry because we want to stay and get the extra 10% junk.... (facepalm)

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Baroclinic View Post
    All this crying about getting ganked, I'm assuming no one made the mistake of making a character on a PvP server. They finally give you a way out that doesn't cost $25 per character, and we cry because we want to stay and get the extra 10% junk.... (facepalm)
    Of course people want the extra 10% rewards. What happened to the PvPers who claimed they played for the "fun" of world PvP? If that were true, they wouldn't need a reward to use it. Instead, they gank lowbies and then complain when everyone actually does opt out.

  19. #699
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    And PvP servers never needed bonuses or be a prerequisite for getting some of your gutted spec talents back, so why now?
    Because devs have a hard-on for pruning and know that people don't like that - and they need things to bribe people into warmode. At least, this is what I expect from them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    Of course people want the extra 10% rewards. What happened to the PvPers who claimed they played for the "fun" of world PvP? If that were true, they wouldn't need a reward to use it. Instead, they gank lowbies and then complain when everyone actually does opt out.
    This bonus is not for these people. It's there to get people who would not participate in pvp without the bonus, so the numbers get inflated and they can claim that the feature is a success.

  20. #700
    Easy fix by phasing.

    Prioritize placing players up to the max level of that zone in one phase, and rest above that in another phase. So yes, your level 30-some toon can still get ganked by level 60s, but no quite as much by level 120s. 120s can settle with ganking level 61+ in that zone.

    Grouping - if a low level player invites a high level player, they are placed in the higher level player's bracket. This is to avoid utilizing low level players to bring high level players into the low level bracket.

    Bam.

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