Rezzing NElves to serve as Dark Rangers has basically killed all credibility...

[Scathbais]

Seriously. It honestly boggles my mind that Blizzard could allow something that *SO FUNDAMENTALLY* goes against the series' own lore. It is basically proof-positive that there is no "lore guy" working at Blizzard. It's one thing to say "Okay, Forsaken are a little more emotional or prone to outbursts than when they were alive", but with the "Night Elf Dark Rangers", the writers are literally changing EVERYTHING that we know about undeath.

This isn't "advancing the story", or is it "fleshing things out". It's retconning quite literally *everything* that has happened since WC3's Frozen Throne expansion. The Helm of Dominion is the *ONLY* means of controlling sentient undead. This one quest-chain is fundamentally undermining most of WoW's lore, and for no better reason than "making Sylvanas look even *more* edgy!".

This whole thing is just fucking dumb. These aren't "ancient Highborne corpses", these are Night Elves that *JUST* saw their home destroyed and loved ones killed, were killed themselves, and are now IMMEDIATELY joining forces with the person behind ALL of those events.

Where the hell is the quality-control? That "lore guy" we were told works that Blizzard?

Is this from one of the novels or from something in the new patch? I've been away from WoW for a bit so I honestly would like to know.

[Jastall]

Yes, but they're luckily not official.
@Jastall

It's overblown is what it is. @Nerevar sums up my opinion on this at this stage. This is neither new nor something more in breach of the lore than what we've seen before. We've had humans voluntarily join after being raised since Cata and we've had Night Elves join groups that want to kill all of them since the backstory and Vanilla with the various cults and the organisations pointed out before.

The fact that stupid shit happened before doesn't mean I'm going to shut up when the same stupid shit happens now .

[omeomorfismo]

Those weren't *sentient* undead, though. Therein lies the point. Death Knights can control ghouls, because they are not sentient; they're effectively "golems", but instead of being made of clay or whatever, they're constructed from corpses. Same thing with Abominations. They aren't "people".

It may seem like choosing straws, but these distinctions are crucial in understanding how everything transpired during and after WC3.

By the same token, having Night Elves willingly turn to serving Sylvanas is both bad writing *AND* fundamentally undermines over a decade of established lore.

false, considering the blue post about undeath, ghouls are exactly like forsaken and dks. the constructs, if the distiction is still true, are only skeleton, as in the rpg, and flesh golems, as we read in game for abominations and things in naxxramas/putricide.
then in TFT there wasnt any distinction as you suggest between the forsaken half and BL half and btw vanilla forsakens were just freed from the second group long after the plaguelands civil war.

then which fundamentally established lore? that undeath change deeply a being? to the point that tree hugger hippie couldnt even understand why they were this way?
i mean, we have in game even tons of paladins turned as psycopath since vanilla (or even w3 if we count arthas) with only bartolomew and zeliek as exceptions and you are suggesting that the race that caused the most problems to azeroth, even after kicking out the highbornes, with constant flip floping in their stances shouldnt? literally paragons of strong will could but nelfs no (and which nelfs? the wardens? the same that even start with sociopath obsessions against arcane users)?

then bad writing? i mean, we are in a game, having to experience a voss/amalia/zelling questlines everytime someone is ressed become boring fast and lessen the value of them. blizz surely can express better in game how these stories still happen out of scenes, but asking to remake them every single time, even with mass ress, is absurd

[RangerDaz]

Alucald said in another post, maybe they are being mind controlled the nelves that losed hope, there is the val'kyr toy at the end of the scenario and says: It's said the one with strongest will is capable of controlling the raised and considering Sylvanas in this war is doing everything to win it quickly, I won't put that aside, also maybe they are just sleeper agents of the death god that is behind of the death of Vol'jin and whisper to name the dead elf as warchief and when the moment comes, he will reveal himself and take his new army forsaken and the better twist, Sylvanas will be furious because she was used again(for more lolz make Arthas that death god that is wanting to return and corrupt Azeroth)

I hope you are right about the idea of them being mind controlled, because between having a second lich king or having undead elves joining the enemy in their free will, the same enemy that just slaughtered them and their families, i still believe the Lich king 2.0 idea is more credible.. and a more intelligent solution.

- - - Updated - - -

So why are there Death Knights in the Alliance?

I believe Blizzard made a mistake when they opened all the playable WotLK races to be death knights.
I think they did it exclusively to lure the players into playing the new class, aka for marketing reasons.

In my opinion, lorewise only the Eastern Kingdom races that felt the corruption of the Scourge during Warcraft 3 should have been raised as undead: no worgen, draenei, gnomes or night elves for alliance, no Orgrimmar Orcs, Darkspear Trolls (always living in Kalimdor), Tauren and Goblins.

Dwarves and Humans DKs for Alliance, Undead and Blood Elf DKs for horde, were indeed the death knights that for me made most sense (aka the corrupted paladins raised in undeath to serve the lich king).

I don't know what races were present in Vanilla's Naxxramas though. Those presences in that vanilla raid could alone justify the WotLK DK playable races.

[Zandalariprelate]

I hope you are right about the idea of them being mind controlled, because between having a second lich king or having undead elves joining the enemy in their free will, the same enemy that just slaughtered them and their families, i still believe the Lich king 2.0 idea is more credible.. and a more intelligent solution.

- - - Updated - - -



I believe Blizzard made a mistake when they opened all the playable WotLK races to be death knights.
I think they did it exclusively to lure the players into playing the new class, aka for marketing reasons.

In my opinion, lorewise only the Eastern Kingdom races that felt the corruption of the Scourge during Warcraft 3 should have been raised as undead: no worgen, draenei, gnomes or night elves for alliance, no Orgrimmar Orcs, Darkspear Trolls (always living in Kalimdor), Tauren and Goblins.

Dwarves and Humans DKs for Alliance, Undead and Blood Elf DKs for horde, were indeed the death knights that for me made most sense (aka the corrupted paladins raised in undeath to serve the lich king).

I don't know what races were present in Vanilla's Naxxramas though. Those presences in that vanilla raid could alone justify the WotLK DK playable races.

Yeah I prefer the first option too as well or you know the 3 option is very good, also sylvanas will get backstabbed again for trusting raised enemies(godfrey) also I want Arthas merely a setback again.

You know the dks aren't part of the alliance since Legion, most of them seem to be working for the ebon blade and the lich king, since Thassarian kinda deserted after Andorhal battle and Koltira well you know the rest if you did the legion campaign of that class, so probably no one will want to join the factions, even the DH seem to be distanced from their kind.

Also do you think Calia can do some payback of undead enslavement with the horde? That is the only thing I hope from the lightsakens

[RangerDaz]

Yeah I prefer the first option too as well or you know the 3 option is very good, also sylvanas will get backstabbed again for trusting raised enemies(godfrey) also I want Arthas merely a setback again.

You know the dks aren't part of the alliance since Legion, most of them seem to be working for the ebon blade and the lich king, since Thassarian kinda deserted after Andorhal battle and Koltira well you know the rest if you did the legion campaign of that class, so probably no one will want to join the factions, even the DH seem to be distanced from their kind.

Also do you think Calia can do some payback of undead enslavement with the horde? That is the only thing I hope from the lightsakens

I'm not sure that lorewise the death knights and demon hunters have left the Alliance / Horde. All classes had their own issues in the class halls, but no especific class was expelled from or volunteerly left the Alliance or the Horde... at least from what i remember in legion.

Death knights, demon hunters and warlocks are the "bad boys" from the Alliance/Horde classes, because clearly for them the motives justify the means. But still i believe they weren't cast away. I also have a feeling that the DKs aren't following orders directly from the current lich king, they are just connected to the Ebon Blade, just like all characters to their classes / class halls, but i might be wrong though.

Blizzard did put the death knights and demon hunters in the BfA "refrigerator" as we can clearly see in the available classes of the allied races, especially for gameplay reasons (aka having a specific starting zone locked in time with a leader that raised/united them that no longer exists (in Azeroth for the case of Illidan).

My opinion is that these two classes need to evolve, because without a leader and the motive that created their order no longer exists (fighting back the lich king or ending the legion), it feels that there is no reason for the classes to exist anymore. The evolution theory says that the creatures need to evolve to adapt and survive, or else they might die and be extinguished. For me that is clearly the case of the death knights and demon hunters. They need new motivations and leaderships to keep the recruitment opened and get new recruits that should continue filling their ranks, or else those classes will end up dying with no new characters.

I am also very curious in what direction Blizzard will be taking Calia. And what they are planning to do with Uther's Tomb. @The-Shan wrote after Blizzcon that Uther's Tomb could be just an artistic addition to BfA without a true motive, after talking to a Blizzard developer. I hope it is more than just a new art criation added to the game, and that a cool story might come out of all this.

However seeing how all this awkward war story orbiting around Sylvanas, i feel i might be disappointed again. But still, i am very interested in seeing how the Calia storyline will be developed and presented to us. For sure she will be a force against Sylvanas (unless she choses her allegiances the same way the undead night elf dark rangers are doing ) Hopefully it won't be a disappointment! *crosses fingers*

[omeomorfismo]

I'm not sure that lorewise the death knights and demon hunters have left the Alliance / Horde. All classes had their own issues in the class halls, but no especific class was expelled from or volunteerly left the Alliance or the Horde... at least from what i remember in legion.

Death knights, demon hunters and warlocks are the "bad boys" from the Alliance/Horde classes, because clearly for them the motives justify the means. But still i believe they weren't cast away. I also have a feeling that the DKs aren't following orders directly from the current lich king, they are just connected to the Ebon Blade, just like all characters to their classes / class halls, but i might be wrong though.

Blizzard did put the death knights and demon hunters in the BfA "refrigerator" as we can clearly see in the available classes of the allied races, especially for gameplay reasons (aka having a specific starting zone locked in time with a leader that raised/united them that no longer exists (in Azeroth for the case of Illidan).

My opinion is that these two classes need to evolve, because without a leader and the motive that created their order no longer exists (fighting back the lich king or ending the legion), it feels that there is no reason for the classes to exist anymore. The evolution theory says that the creatures need to evolve to adapt and survive, or else they might die and be extinguished. For me that is clearly the case of the death knights and demon hunters. They need new motivations and leaderships to keep the recruitment opened and get new recruits that should continue filling their ranks, or else those classes will end up dying with no new characters.

I am also very curious in what direction Blizzard will be taking Calia. And what they are planning to do with Uther's Tomb. @The-Shan wrote after Blizzcon that Uther's Tomb could be just an artistic addition to BfA without a true motive, after talking to a Blizzard developer. I hope it is more than just a new art criation added to the game, and that a cool story might come out of all this.

However seeing how all this awkward war story orbiting around Sylvanas, i feel i might be disappointed again. But still, i am very interested in seeing how the Calia storyline will be developed and presented to us. For sure she will be a force against Sylvanas (unless she does the same thing as the undead night elf dark rangers are doing ) Hopefully it won't be a disappointment! *crosses fingers*

i doubt that dks could have realistically develpoment. nobody outside forsakens like or accept necromancy and even forsaken culture is more or less against the dk, because dks really enslave undeads. maybe they could continue with nathanos style of enhanched undead, that is similar to dk, but still it isnt the same and anyway a peculiarty of the forsakens.
dh have to die. they revolve entirely around the burning legion, without it why someone should summon and eat a demon instead to be a simply warlock?

and there isnt a single possibility that calia can be developed in a good way. forsaken and ally fans are at the opposite, please one faction will piss off the other.
maybe a possible way would be make something like odyn, zealot slaves at the hand of a scarlet crusade 2.0 . it doesnt please all the alliance, but at least it doesnt shit on all what forsaken represent

[Super Dickmann]

and there isnt a single possibility that calia can be developed in a good way. forsaken and ally fans are at the opposite, please one faction will piss off the other.
maybe a possible way would be make something like odyn, zealot slaves at the hand of a scarlet crusade 2.0 . it doesnt please all the alliance, but at least it doesnt shit on all what forsaken represent

This is the truth. The only way Calia can work is if she decides that the whole world must learn of her peaceful ways - by force, and if the Lightsaken's shtick is that they're just as inhuman because being both undead and part of a cosmic force they're completely detached from the human experience in the other direction. The chance of them being Lordaeron revanchists has been lost.

[Dagoth Ur]

Anduin shirt

It'd be cool if this ends up being the tabard of the faction equivalent of Armies of Legionfall once we get to fight the Void lords with Anduin on helm.

[mickybrighteyes]

So why are there Death Knights in the Alliance?

same reason the night elves are?

devs said so.

[Oneirophobia]

One person being a lightforged undead doesn't exactly mean there are going to be more. Granted, they did that ass pull once before with Void Elves, but is Blizzard really that stupid as to do something like that again?

Is that a rhetorical question?

[Coldfrostzero]

Is that a rhetorical question?

At this point, I don't know anymore.

[Super Dickmann]

It'd be cool if this ends up being the tabard of the faction equivalent of Armies of Legionfall once we get to fight the Void lords with Anduin on helm.

Please stop. The rabbit's foot has already bitten us in the ass so many times.

[Brocksley]

Meh seems plausible to me. Some Night elves are pissed their goddess didn't save them, pissed that Tyrande and Malf didn't save them, and they lost the battle, so they join the winning side when given the chance. Doesn't sound that out there at all to me.

[Jonwho]

You are totally right. Night elves never try to genocide their own people... oh look, a Druid of the Flame, and over there, a cultist kaldorei of the Twilight Hammer. Yeah, Blizzard is destroying their own lore, making this stuff up. Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to clear Dire Maul, and kill one or two undead night elves.

[Feanoro]

Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to clear Dire Maul, and kill one or two undead night elves.

Those were implemented before BElf models. Dire Maul makes it very clear that Eldre'thalas was a Highborne library/institute.

[shade076]

Those were implemented before BElf models. Dire Maul makes it very clear that Eldre'thalas was a Highborne library/institute.

The highborne in Feralas wouldve looked more like night elves than high elves. They high elves didnt begin to evolve until they began living in Eastern Kingdoms. There was also a Blood Elf/ High Elf model in classic it just was crappy looking.

[MikeBogina]

OP do you not know how undeath works? When someone is resurrected through Necromancy and gets their free will, they're not the same good person that they used to be.

Sylvanas is a great example of this. She wasn't some blood thirsty monster that wanted to end all life. The moment she gains her freedom from the Lich King and is done fighting the Dreadlords, she kills the Alliance leader(who was a piece of shit) and allows the testing of new plague on living people.

And the Forsaken, if you didn't play Warcraft 3, you'd think these people were always some evil/Morally gray people who were dark and nefarious. They took to making the plague real fast and almost all of them delight in being undead. Even tricking Tauren into thinking they want to be cured when they don't. This isn't a bunch of bad people before they died, this is the citizens of Lordaeron who are just like the ones from Stormwind. If the same thing happened to Stormwind, those people would be the same way.

Let's look at Darion and the Death Knights who are "former champions of the factions"... they're all evil dicks that don't care about killing! Darion was a paladin(I think) and once he had his freedom(the DK's really weren't controlled to begin with) he didn't abandon the use of death magic and try to rejoin his friends at the Argent Dawn, but actually continued to embrace death.

The personalities that one has when they're in the Scourge persists when they have free will aswell. The Lich King can no longer control them, but they basically have an alter ego that's evilish.

The Night Elves that are raised who turn on their brethren and join the Forsaken may be questionable, but it isn't new lore. It's actually quite established lore for the Forsaken that even people they've killed end up joining them because they're now apart of the undead race. Many who would rather be dead than undead, don't keep that mentality when they get resurrected.

With Delaryn and Sira it makes sense, especially if you know what was going on in Delaryn's mind when she was dying, which is echoed again by Sera in game for those that didn't read the book. They felt abandoned and betrayed by Elune who for some reason only favors Tyrande.

[valis]

OP do you not know how undeath works? When someone is resurrected through Necromancy and gets their free will, they're not the same good person that they used to be.

Sylvanas is a great example of this. She wasn't some blood thirsty monster that wanted to end all life. The moment she gains her freedom from the Lich King and is done fighting the Dreadlords, she kills the Alliance leader(who was a piece of shit) and allows the testing of new plague on living people.

And the Forsaken, if you didn't play Warcraft 3, you'd think these people were always some evil/Morally gray people who were dark and nefarious. They took to making the plague real fast and almost all of them delight in being undead. Even tricking Tauren into thinking they want to be cured when they don't. This isn't a bunch of bad people before they died, this is the citizens of Lordaeron who are just like the ones from Stormwind. If the same thing happened to Stormwind, those people would be the same way.

Let's look at Darion and the Death Knights who are "former champions of the factions"... they're all evil dicks that don't care about killing! Darion was a paladin(I think) and once he had his freedom(the DK's really weren't controlled to begin with) he didn't abandon the use of death magic and try to rejoin his friends at the Argent Dawn, but actually continued to embrace death.

The personalities that one has when they're in the Scourge persists when they have free will aswell. The Lich King can no longer control them, but they basically have an alter ego that's evilish.

The Night Elves that are raised who turn on their brethren and join the Forsaken may be questionable, but it isn't new lore. It's actually quite established lore for the Forsaken that even people they've killed end up joining them because they're now apart of the undead race. Many who would rather be dead than undead, don't keep that mentality when they get resurrected.

With Delaryn and Sira it makes sense, especially if you know what was going on in Delaryn's mind when she was dying, which is echoed again by Sera in game for those that didn't read the book. They felt abandoned and betrayed by Elune who for some reason only favors Tyrande.

Yeah when playing WC3 i can remember Sylvanas saying: "Oh Arthas you magnificent Beast, you killed me now i will freely serve you forever! Curse the Sunwell i don't care." After gaining her free will she becomes a great champion of the scourge, the faction who "blessed her with undeath" ... or was some other story? The Warbringer with Delayrn is nearly copy & paste of that, with the twist that after an enemy destroyed everything you cared for, you just join them (As a reminder, Sylvanas swore revenge against Arthas und fought the scourge, and undeath was a curse, hence the name forsaken)

Darion allied with Tyrion (giving him the Ashbringer and purify it in the process) and the Crusade, but went a different aproach in the Northend Campaign. Doing things that the living couldn't and shouldn't do. All Deathknights were mind controlled, they could follow orders in their own way but had no way of not following an order, untill the Battle at Light Hopes Chapel. In their first incarnation the ebon blade didn't embrace undeath, they had to settle a score with the Lich King (Arthas at that time) and having no other real option, used the powers they had access to. Then they were assigned as a controll force for the new Lich King (Bolvar). All that changed in Legion to: Loyal minions of the new Lich King, even attacking former allies and friends to raise new Horsemann (which where never used against the Legion, or were as powerfull as every other follower you missioned around)...

I think nobody has a clue how undeath in Warcraft works, not even Blizzard... Undead have no hunger or upkeep. Nekromancers have no limits about how many undead they controll or can raise (since WC3...) Some undead regain their former self and stay reasonable persons (Alonsios Foul, the ones who joined the Argent Dawn, some in the starting zones) others are totaly loyal to sylvanas with no reason behind, some are depressed maniacs... there is no clear outcome to the state of undeath. On one hand it's good and interesting that undead vary just like normal people, on the other hand we see an awfull lot of fresh risen undead that do a 180 personality flip...

[Jonwho]

Why is so hard to believe that in a society, there are sorten elements that are capable off selling their mother for immortality or power? We have seen that a lot in every sentient race of Azeroth through the expansions... and irl.

Look, to all of you die hard Night elves fan out there, if it's any consolation, those undead Kaldorei that end up joining the Forsaken, are the worst of the worst of their former people.

Call it: the lowest form of survival instinct. They died once... they don't wanna die again.