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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    But that's only for those who choose to use those addons and let other politics get in the way.
    If you run it simply as 'If it drops for you, grats. If you choose to trade, cool. If not, cool.' then it's more than fine.
    Thats not how guilds work. You want to distribute Loot as efficient as possible. If you refuse, youll get kicked, rightfully so. It just feels worse when an item is taken from you insted of you not getting any item in the first place.

  2. #162
    Deleted
    The fun story about Master Looter being gone:
    The people who HEAVILY advocated for it to be removed, where the people not playing in any guild that used it anyway.

    So for the "staunch defenders of fairness", nothing got better by removing master looter from the game, and they are now long gone, likely directing their irrational rage at some other game element that doesn't affect them at all.

  3. #163
    It's not gone for me


    ;-)

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    Hey guys,

    As a GM and raid leader, i used to find master looter extremely useful. We used it along with EPGP as a means of rewarding the most deserving players that put time and effort into the guild. The loot was the carrot and EPGP was the stick. This meant that we were able to reward players who helped the guild/raid team and discipline players who were not compliant (wouldn't sign for raids, didn't turn up, were always late, weren't prepared with enchants and gems etc).

    Now with this gone, it is very difficult to enforce any structure within our guild as the carrot has been taken away and we are finding players largely do what they want knowing that they have just the same chance of loot as anyone else, even vs. the 100% attendance guy who gives it there all on every progress raid. If they are there on the kill night, they can get the loot.

    This is not a discussion about ML vs PL as I don't really care what people think about it. For us ML was great and now we are noticing significant negatives with it gone.

    My question is more around whether or not there are any posts or noises made by blizzard about ever bringing it back? Also are there any posts still going on the official wow forums about this. It seems to have gone very quiet since about July so maybe the community has just accepted ML is gone for good?

    Thanks
    So far....no.

    But that can only chance if they start listen to the feedback again.
    Because the reason they changed it is still BS.
    Just because some cry baby's did not get there loot in a raid. They changed it.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Thats not how guilds work. You want to distribute Loot as efficient as possible. If you refuse, youll get kicked, rightfully so. It just feels worse when an item is taken from you insted of you not getting any item in the first place.
    That's not how some guilds work, and I don't disagree that it feels bad to have something just to give it away (similar to paying bills, if you auto-deduct from your paycheck it's like you never had it, but if the cash was in your hand and you forked it over, that feels different ).
    Part of the issue is that only the ones who push progression hard do all the things to figure out who benefits the most, then sends it out to whomever they deem appropriate, while most of the 'casual guilds' (which make up the majority of the playerbase) would just simply do a roll-off and best roll wins.
    You gotta remember, the Mythic scene is the small scene, but that's also the scene that benefits from full agency that ML gives.
    This is most likely why Blizz did away with it and will probably stand firm on it until such a time (if ever) that the pressure from the players forces their hand.

    I've been a part of guilds who used EPGP, loot council with officers (I was RL but not GL for this, so that was extra boring), SKS, you name it, I've been through it.
    I can honestly say in my experience that PL is perfectly fine.
    But.
    I get it, PL hurts you and your group, and it makes sense why (feels bad, can't trade, etc), which is why I want ML back in some fashion; to alleviate the stress you and yours feel, even though I probably won't use it myself.
    Maybe some of the more casual guilds would use ML again, maybe not, but it's definitely worth re-enabling in some way to let players figure it out themselves.

  6. #166
    Did LFR ever have Master Loot? Because otherwise I don't understand why all these LFR heroes comment on a forum about ML.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Did LFR ever have Master Loot? Because otherwise I don't understand why all these LFR heroes comment on a forum about ML.
    No, but it was Need/Greed in Dragon Soul which was... entertaining to say the least.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by beelgers View Post
    No, but it was Need/Greed in Dragon Soul which was... entertaining to say the least.
    That system was quite interesting, need rolls had a "role bonus" if you rolled on spec specific items. Basically it was /rnd 101-200 for tanks on tank items etc. Most entertaining part of it was hunters getting role bonus on the dagger at Hagara in the beginning.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by beelgers View Post
    I think what people generally miss here is what is actually happening when they said their RL ninja'd gear for their buddies. Obviously that would never have worked long term if true. What really is happening (at least from my experience): Raider A feels entitled to a drop. Drop given to raider B because it helps the team more. Raider A cannot fathom why it would be better to give it to raider B because they are the best raider ever, so RL must be just giving loot to his buddies, right?

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    It makes perfect sense if the player isn't selfish and is more interested in the team succeeding. You know, generally the mentality of people doing mythic and even clearing heroic quickly.

    Besides, if they're in a guild group, their total ilvl is irrelevant anyway. PuGs already couldn't ML if that's why you're referring to total ilvl, so I don't really get this argument.
    Accurate which is why I would never want someone who actually wants personal loot on a raid team I was on because they only care about themselves not about downing bosses except for more gear for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    define decent ? world 50 ? sure world 200 ? sure

    but do you have any idea what a wild west there was in range of 1000-5000 ?

    its the midcore not hardcore players who were alwys the most toxic part of community . thats why so many people when given choice to raid hc cross real instantly jumped ships and ignored guilds imidiately
    You don't need a guild to raid heroic lols

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    Yeah ML gone is a good thing.
    Way too many guild leaders preferred to gear up their underperforming girlfriends and officer buddies. At least now I know I won't be screwed over by some cuck RL who can't imagine displeasing his bitching dominatrix or a irl drinking buddy.
    Happened way too many times, thank god for this change.
    sure you were bud and when's the last time you raided in an actual guild?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    It happened in 3 guilds i've raided with in Legion (not talking other expansions.)
    Sure I've left them - but that was another stress: searching for a new guild that would want my specc in, trialing AGAIN not getting any loot, so on and so on. it's a complete waste of time and a turn off. I did eventually find a guild to get all the Legion CE, but boy that was a very long journey. Removal of ML simply removes all that hussle.

    P.S. Heroic ain't raids. One of the guilds RL gave a 5th Nighthold mythic set piece to an officer friend over me and another raider ( i had only 1 piece the other guy had 3 we were parsing better than that officer still).
    You ever think that your history of guild hopping multiple times over a single xpac might be why you didn't get gear as a trial or I'm guessing pass your trial. It's a massive red flag to gms unless a guild straight up dies. Also trials usually don't get gear except tier or if nobody needs it or if they are in for prog. Once they pass trial they get showered in loot to catch them up but there is no point in wasting gear on someone who isn't in for prog and could just leave or use you as a stepping stone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    I have a feeling ML will be back, but it will be restricted to guild groups.
    I think the threshold is 80% of the members must be of the same guild (you know, the little icon thingie on the minimap difficulty banner), so if you meet that criteria, the RL can enable ML.
    If your group falls below that threshold, then it reverts to PL automatically.

    This would let the guilds who want ML to use it while the others who don't can stick with the PL ruleset.
    At the same time, it would prevent pug groups from 'stealing gear' or 'playing favorites' or whatever the shit the excuses were because pug groups most likely won't have 80% guild members, and in the case you join one that is a guild run, you as the player will recognize it as such, can ask ML or PL, then you can choose to continue or not.

    As far as guild groups go, if you're in one who steals loot and gives it to undeserving people or whatever the case is, that's your own fault for sticking with them.
    Move on, find a new group that's not a bunch of shitheads.
    If it's 'too hard' to find a new group, spread your wings, little butterfly. You would be surprised what can happen if you just initiate a bit of conversation.
    You mean exactly what it was in legion?????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bog View Post
    This happened in every guild i raided.Officer were given priority for legendaries,loot,mounts...There's always priority to throw gear at officers and their friends.Seen it way to many times.It's same like you are in a dungeon and theres a guy helping his lower geared friend.Of course he will throw gear to him over everyone else.It's pretty much same in raiding guilds.GM>officer>rest of the guild.
    Officers tend to be prio for legendary because they have been with the guild for years and aren't as likely to get poached for that orange staff to kill spine as the mage who joined a month ago and just passed trial. Mounts are usually rolled on by all raiders with occasionally a guild specifically choosing to give the first one to the gm, rl or just a standout player who stopped the kill from wiping but usually just rolled. Loot prio is usually highest dps who will be there for every prog fight since tanks should get enough eh from full heroic gear which is fairly easy to achieve in two weeks. Sometimes a healer set bonus will be prioritized if it's broken but usually it's damage > all til farm once eh and healing requirements are met.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Solry View Post
    I uderstand. But neither your or my story is universal. There is a gazillion guilds out there not just those encountered by you or me.
    It is good that you havent't been to guilds I've been to. And, sadly, you can't really tell that shit's gonna happen until it has happened in most cases. You join a guild, theyre doing mythic (hc prio to MoP) everything seems fine, youre Trialing - so you dont even expect any loot. And then month and a half later being at a "raider" or equal rank you observe how only the officers and RL are getting geared.
    Then again, like I said, my story isnt universal just like yours isnt. But PL basically eliminates even the possibility of highjacking.
    It's true it's not universal. But there are ways to reduce the possibility of getting into such a guild. Carefully researching it, for one, checking their /gquit history. If there seems to be a lot of people leaving regularly and they have a large turnover rate, it's pretty clear there is something wrong with it. And in any case, I'm guessing no guild that remotely cares about their progress will do that, simply because they can't progress if they keep gearing up a few people that are in good standings with the leadership and ignoring everyone else. Of course there will still be a possibility.

    But, as many posters here have already stated many times, despite the official explanation, the introduction of PL was by no means a way of reducing the chance of ML being abused, if that was the case, they would have left ML a choice for guild raids. The reason is clearly that they wanted to slow down the gearing process, so that players would stay subbed for a longer time. Apparently they didn't predict that players aren't going to just swallow the RNG system thrown at them and quit even faster (and in many cases, probably for good) instead of just taking a break between tiers, as many did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    It's true it's not universal. But there are ways to reduce the possibility of getting into such a guild. Carefully researching it, for one, checking their /gquit history. If there seems to be a lot of people leaving regularly and they have a large turnover rate, it's pretty clear there is something wrong with it. And in any case, I'm guessing no guild that remotely cares about their progress will do that, simply because they can't progress if they keep gearing up a few people that are in good standings with the leadership and ignoring everyone else. Of course there will still be a possibility.

    But, as many posters here have already stated many times, despite the official explanation, the introduction of PL was by no means a way of reducing the chance of ML being abused, if that was the case, they would have left ML a choice for guild raids. The reason is clearly that they wanted to slow down the gearing process, so that players would stay subbed for a longer time. Apparently they didn't predict that players aren't going to just swallow the RNG system thrown at them and quit even faster (and in many cases, probably for good) instead of just taking a break between tiers, as many did.
    A lot more just quit tbh the ml change on top of the idiocy of the titanforging socket tertiary stat casino made a lot of people go nah f it I'm out.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    A lot more just quit tbh the ml change on top of the idiocy of the titanforging socket tertiary stat casino made a lot of people go nah f it I'm out.
    Well, yeah, it's like those Korean MMOs with their upgrade systems. Blow money on an item (or get a drop), then blow money on the upgrade lottery that gets harder with every level. Except there, assuming you had enough gold, you could be relatively sure that you will get those upgrades in place eventually, and you can do it repeatedly until you do. In WoW, you can't blow gold, it's pure lottery that you only get one shot a week at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  13. #173
    I always assumed blizzard removed master looter as it simplified the game for developers and it had little to do with what was best for the players. I base the conclusion essentially on you could argue in favor of either system, so for best player experience you could just leave both in place so the only real reason not to is because it simplifies the game from a technical point of view.

  14. #174
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Daws View Post
    I always assumed blizzard removed master looter as it simplified the game for developers and it had little to do with what was best for the players. I base the conclusion essentially on you could argue in favor of either system, so for best player experience you could just leave both in place so the only real reason not to is because it simplifies the game from a technical point of view.
    Cuts down on CS tickets as well. Yes, there were ML-related tickets from guild groups. Many positives.

    The positive for us is that there are so many threads as this one which are extremely entertaining.

    I wonder how long will "I want my ML back" threads pop up on MMO-C? Will we get manned flight to Mars before the ML-dream dies for good?

  15. #175
    I still disagree with their reasoning for removing ML. While I do support ML returning I can see the merits behind both sides of the argument. Because of that though it just seems like the most logical thing to do would leave the choice of whether to use it in players' hands.

  16. #176
    ML will be back in 9.0 when they revert all their shitty bfa designs due to sub loss.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by beelgers View Post
    Besides, if they're in a guild group, their total ilvl is irrelevant anyway. PuGs already couldn't ML if that's why you're referring to total ilvl, so I don't really get this argument.
    Being in a guild group right now doesn't mean that you'll never pug.

    And there are actual game mechanics based around ilvl, it's not just related to PUGging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wegwacc View Post
    The fun story about Master Looter being gone:
    The people who HEAVILY advocated for it to be removed, where the people not playing in any guild that used it anyway.

    So for the "staunch defenders of fairness", nothing got better by removing master looter from the game
    Nothing got better for you maybe. Blizzard wouldn't have gone to all this trouble if people submitting tickets about master loot wasn't a significant issue.

  18. #178
    ML with EPGP was by far the most equitable and reasonable way for guilds to distribute loot fairly. I ran my team on EPGP since cata with 0 loot disputes because the system was so transparently fair. Like most things the dev team has gone after, eliminating ML was a fix to a non existent problem. Sure, if you were 12 years old and couldn't find a group of sane adults to raid with, you might have problems, but that isn't a majority issue. Most of us were chilling in our guilds calmly distributing loot equitably for years. But Ion et al saw a windmill they needed to tilt at. Just like ability pruning. Just like GCD fuckery. Just like cmode removal for whatever half-baked esports ploy m+ is. Just like the removal of 10H. The list goes on. They will keep hamstringing their loyal players until the game is unrecognizable and we all retire to raise our children or go outside or something. Such is life.

  19. #179
    Honestly this deep into mythic raiding, no one is complaining about Personal Loot.

    Everyone is gearing up. Sure there are some bad streaks but... if you're 380+ you're doing just fine, kid.

  20. #180
    I recall in a blue post they explained it.
    ML allows for gear funnel and allocation, meaning gear wont be wasted. But the downside is people participating the raid do not feel directly rewarded, they are playing to gear for them and other players, following an artifical rule set my the leader. By using personal loot, there is little allocation within the raid, so less politics problems. Any player in the raid can get upgrade for their main/off spec easily just by playing the game, none will take the loot away if the person likes; no favourism at all. This has problem as well, as some items get wasted. The solution is simply boosting the drop rate to compensate.
    So the ML problem was solved by PL, and the PL problem was solved by increasing the drop rate. In other word, Blizzard has won

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