The warmode and the people ruining it

[Lenarific]

why's this still on the front page, having leveled 10 toons this expansion so far with warmode on, and a couple of allied races to 100-50-50 etc i haven't been ganked more than twice because i'm not an idiot as i mentioned before i just go somewhere the gankers aren't, Duskwood is a easy place horde like to gank so i leveled in another zone, it wasn't very complex.

I call bullshit.....

[Felixon]

The problem here is most people complaining keep bringing up low level alts at level 20. Why on earth are you worried about doing PVP on a low level alt at level 20?

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that you want to spend most of your time doing world PVP as a low level alt versus leveling said alt?
And the answer is of course not. Most people leveling alts just want to get those alts leveled up as quickly as possible.
So why on earth are you using "war mode" to level up then? If you aren't using "war mode" for the explicit purpose of attacking and killing other players, then you really aren't intrested in PVP. You just want the benefits with none of the draw backs.

And keeping in mind that if you are so serious about PVP, you would turn on war mode with your max level character as there are actual events in game that are designed for max level PVP like island expeditions and new incursions, plus the new zones are kinda more designed for it. Not to mention the zones where the war fronts are located are also ripe for world PVP. AND at max level you are going to have more "fair and balanced" (whatever that means) fights. So if you are saying you are more interested in doing PVP as a low level alt versus doing PVP as a max level player, I call bull sh*t. You just want a quicker way to level that nth alt with no possiblity of being killed and certainly you aren't turning on war mode on these alts because you want to PVP. What is inherently "more fair and balanced" at level 20 vs another level 20 than two 120s at max level. What is so much better about PVP at level 20 or 30 that you would actually spend your time seeking out other level 20s or 30s versus actually focusing on leveling? This line of reasoning is just illogical.

Who said something about focusing solely on the World PvP instead of leveling? That's an additional option/thing to do while you are leveling. Shit, if before on the PvP realm it was quite possible to encounter a player of opposite faction and +/- 5 levels above or below and fight it,with the new zone scaling system it's almost impossible - there's a huge chance that your level 30 will have to fight against lvl 59. People of the same levels were hanging around in the same zones and could fight each other.

Your argument about "what's the point of low level PvP" means,that either haven't played the bg's with your low level characters or don't even know what twink means. Before the heirlooms were released,there was a bunch of people with level 19 twinks,equiped with the best in slot items and all possible enchants running the battlegrounds. If people were and are I suppose having more fun than running boring world quests at the max level,how can you actually blame them?

[Mayia]

I call bullshit.....

do you want a toon to armoury? i mount farm, i have 4/5 world boss mounts.
razíel (alt 161 for the i) from barth oceanic if your interested, i'm systematically getting the rare mounts expansion to expansion stuck on nalak and doing the warlord raid ones currently then its onto legion.
Leveling isn't really that hard.

[lappee]

Because they want actual PVP where they can fight, and not simply to be one-shot and camped? It's not always just about getting the 10% bonus.

So do BG's, thats exactly what they're for. War Mode is just open world PvP where anything can happen, specially now that zones scale and you're more likely to face people of greater level diversity than before. Your "balanced" world PvP will never happen and its not supposed to.

Even small problems can lead to larger issues, however. Try not brushing your teeth every day and see where that leads. This is exactly what's happening with ganking of low level players. It undermines potential wPVP at levels other than cap, for no gain other than the sadistic glee of trolling players.

Brush your teeth 6 days out of 7 and see where that leads, yeah nothing happens. Other actions, such as crying about "ganking" that literally never really happens, have far bigger consequences causing useless topics such as this.

Obviously we're fundamentally in disagreement on this. Personally I believe that allowing ganking of low level players does nothing good for the game. The "sense of danger" created by capped players is a thin excuse to participate in toxic behavior. It's NEVER been anything else.

Thats simply because you want everything to be scripted PvP, which will never happen. One player will always be at disadvantage in open world PvP. Want PvP thats more balanced? go play rated arenas or rated BG's (even those are unbalanced as hell).

World PvP is exactly what the name suggests, everyone can go there and take a part and now thanks to War mode everyone can go toggle it off if they can't handle it.

And the only thing people shout over here is "but ganking bhuaah" even when ganking doesn't actually happen. People just get killed by high levels and don't actually even try to avoid it but rather come here and whine about it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the community and reputation had a mitigating effect on ganking of low level players. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't still a bad practice and poor implementation of WPVP.

The entire WPVP system badly needs a complete and total overhaul. War Mode is bandaid on a bullet wound. Slapping more bandaids on it, like increasing the bonus to 30% instead of 10%, won't work. Likewise, simply telling leveling players to "deal with it or turn it off" is a halfassed answer that doesn't actually solve anything. Whatever form that overhaul takes, leaving ganking/camping low level players should NOT be part of it.

It doesn't mean it wasn't bad practice or poor implementation of WPvP, it means it was working exactly as it should've been.

The only thing WPvP really needs is for people to stop crying about it. You can change the buff to some other benefit for doing WPvP (once somebody finds a way that can't be abused).
Telling people to turn it off actually solves everything for the people who whine about it, they no longer have to deal with it and if they want to PvP they can do so in Battlegrounds.

That is exactly what is happening - many people don't want to participate in world PVP defined this way. People can't find enemies and some start crying "why aren't people participating?". Blizzard also can't figure out why people don't want to turn warmode on, it goes against their idea of war-themed expansion. And they throw more rewards while still sticking to the same "all or nothing" approach.
Guess what, people still don't like it!

You can't eat a cookie and have it. Either we go with this approach to world PvP and we all accept that some people won't go anywhere near it, or we try to convince them to participate but then we try to make world PvP in a way that is acceptable to them. Increasing rewards for something that to those people is a horrible experience is not going to work well.

SO sure, let's keep it the way it is. But don't come crying that you have noone to fight because everyone switched their warmode off. And Blizzard better focus their attention on something else. World PvP is in that place, where it already appeals to certain people and doesn't to others. It won't change significantly without major redesign.

Simple fact is that Alliance doesn't have people to WPvP and the sharding in BfA caused it to be a bigger problem (instead of having some shards with balanced numbers of alliance & horde, with the rest being horde only, we had all shards being 1 to 10 alliance - horde ratio). On top of that World quests have very little to offer anymore and we're seeing a decline in the number of people doing them when compared to legion.

Its not a problem with War Mode itself, but a problem on the mentality of the factions. If Blizzard gets their balanced sharding working then we'll see how that helps with the few alliances that actually would opt-in for War mode.

well in that case steps to dissuade low level ganking can't hurt. If no one is doing it, no one will run into the changes being discussed here.

Except people aren't trying to get rid of actual ganking but all non-level appropriate players from seeing each other, meaning the world would just simply be empty as no-one could see each other thanks to how many different zones there are to level with at the same level range.

Go ahead and make a system that actually solves ganking, aka where you can't be killed by the same person 10 times in a row, but leave the rest alone or you'll just ruing WPvP and make it into AV where you're all alone.

- - - Updated - - -

If you think low level actually qualifies as PVP under anything more than the most literal sense, then I don't know what to tell you.

If it doesn't qualify then why is there BG's, arenas and War mode option for anything but max level chars? yeah, because it does count.

[SirCowdog]

If it doesn't qualify then why is there BG's, arenas and War mode option for anything but max level chars? yeah, because it does count.

Im at work and my phone ate an important word. It was supposed to read:

"If you think low level ganking actually....." qualifies..."

I'll reply to the rest when I get home.

[xindralol]

Because I believe in not killing people under level 80 unless they attack me first, then I'll kill them. But if you have warmode on at 90+, then I'll see you as pray.

prey* Stay in school and do something useful with your life instead of wasting players’ time.

[SirCowdog]

So do BG's, thats exactly what they're for. War Mode is just open world PvP where anything can happen, specially now that zones scale and you're more likely to face people of greater level diversity than before. Your "balanced" world PvP will never happen and its not supposed to.

You and others keep missing the point. This is like the fourth time I've said this: It's not about creating a perfectly balanced match. It's about preventing the worst kinds of behaviors.

I think you should consider why you're trying so hard to defend such unhealthy behavior in the game.

Brush your teeth 6 days out of 7 and see where that leads, yeah nothing happens. Other actions, such as crying about "ganking" that literally never really happens, have far bigger consequences causing useless topics such as this.

False equivalence. Do capped players ganking low level characters get killed in return 6 out of 7 times? Do they even have to fight 6 out of 7 times?

Thats simply because you want everything to be scripted PvP,

Quote me where I said I wanted that? Stop overexaggerating and misrepresenting my posts and start trying to actually understand what's really being said. If all you want to do is straw man, we can just go ahead and end this conversation right now.

One player will always be at disadvantage in open world PvP. Want PvP thats more balanced? go play rated arenas or rated BG's (even those are unbalanced as hell).

"It's not about creating a perfectly balanced match. It's about preventing the worst kinds of behaviors."

It doesn't mean it wasn't bad practice or poor implementation of WPvP, it means it was working exactly as it should've been.

I highly suspect the only reason Blizzard even included PVP servers in the first place was due to market demand for SOME kind of open world PVP, but didn't really know how to do it. Blizzard never really put much effort into it. It was fire and forget. They made some minor attempts to adjust toxic playstyles with things like Dishonorable Kills and the Tenacity buff in places like Wintergrasp. But every time they ended up throwing up their hands and abandoning the attempt.

That doesn't mean that such a result is GOOD, or that Blizzard intended it to be that way, or that they should stop trying. It just means they never bothered to spend the dev time to revisit it until now, with War Mode. And the funny part is that Blizzard IS taking steps to make WPVP more of a reasonable environment. They've implemented sharding to balance population numbers. Using scaling or sharding to prevent ganking of low level players and promote actual WPVP is the next logical step.

[HuxNeva]

World pvp has been made into a dumpster fire

No, it is a dumpster fire by design.

[Lenarific]

do you want a toon to armoury? i mount farm, i have 4/5 world boss mounts.
razíel (alt 161 for the i) from barth oceanic if your interested, i'm systematically getting the rare mounts expansion to expansion stuck on nalak and doing the warlord raid ones currently then its onto legion.
Leveling isn't really that hard.

im calling bullshit on only be ganked twice not how many frigging toons you have.... And GFY cool story bro

[evogsr]

No, it is a dumpster fire by design.

Going to have to disagree.

[lappee]

You and others keep missing the point. This is like the fourth time I've said this: It's not about creating a perfectly balanced match. It's about preventing the worst kinds of behaviors.

I think you should consider why you're trying so hard to defend such unhealthy behavior in the game.

Which is essentially the same thing given the ideas floating around that restrict players into brackets.

I don't consider a low lvl being killed by high lvl to be unhealthy behavior in the game, quite the opposite as I've described before.

False equivalence. Do capped players ganking low level characters get killed in return 6 out of 7 times? Do they even have to fight 6 out of 7 times?

No, it wasn't false at all. Those capped players who are actually ganking low level characters probably got their asses handed to them more than just 6 out of 7 times in the past.

Quote me where I said I wanted that? Stop overexaggerating and misrepresenting my posts and start trying to actually understand what's really being said. If all you want to do is straw man, we can just go ahead and end this conversation right now.

Nothing, even battlegrounds and arena, are perfectly balanced. That's not the point being made here. What people like me are seeking is for WPVP to be reasonably fair. That's something that just doesn't happen when a capped character rolls around low level zones.

As for level brackets, what you said would be correct only without scaling. Scaling within each level bracket would ensure reasonably fair fights between players of similar levels. The amount of power difference between a level 61 and a level 80, for example, is a single row of talents. Stat-wise there's almost no difference. This is what already happens in battlegrounds below level cap, and in the open world between 110-120.

There, getting "fair" aka scripted one vs one, two vs two etc. fights, just like BG's provide you. There is no strawmans used (by me atleast) jsut like I don't back up from my analogies etc.

"It's not about creating a perfectly balanced match. It's about preventing the worst kinds of behaviors."

And, again, in your solution the two are the same. Want to remove actual ganking? make character unkillable by a player who killed you 5 times in the last 15 minutes.

I highly suspect the only reason Blizzard even included PVP servers in the first place was due to market demand for SOME kind of open world PVP, but didn't really know how to do it. Blizzard never really put much effort into it. It was fire and forget. They made some minor attempts to adjust toxic playstyles with things like Dishonorable Kills and the Tenacity buff in places like Wintergrasp. But every time they ended up throwing up their hands and abandoning the attempt.

That doesn't mean that such a result is GOOD, or that Blizzard intended it to be that way, or that they should stop trying. It just means they never bothered to spend the dev time to revisit it until now, with War Mode. And the funny part is that Blizzard IS taking steps to make WPVP more of a reasonable environment. They've implemented sharding to balance population numbers. Using scaling or sharding to prevent ganking of low level players and promote actual WPVP is the next logical step.

PvP servers were the bread and butter of 2 faction game, from the very beginning of Warcraft the conflict was one of major points. Vanilla had save zones (low level) where the controlling faction player wasn't flagged for PvP automatically but only if they attacked opposing faction (or manually enabled it) which gave new players a breathing room. It was actually thought out system that just didn't include any unnecessary systems that you seem to long for.
Dishonorable kills were for NPC's, unhonorable kills were after teleportations etc. to not reward killing players in loading screens. Unhonorable kills are still a thing and dishonorable kills were gone since honor system was changed.
Wintergrasp tenacity buff was a huge mistake and rightly hasn't been used since.

The system was and is good, it could be better via actual WPvP rewards, but changing the fundamental part of everyone taking part in WPvP would just destroy the whole system and make the world just one empty battleground with really nothing to fear.

[saintminya]

What Blizzard really needs to do is remove the incentives to join War Mode. Or at least remove the triple-bonus for the alliance.

[The Stormbringer]

It didn't work in vanilla either.

It worked, people just threw a bitch-fit over it because they couldn't gank lowbies or quest-givers anymore.

[Mayia]

im calling bullshit on only be ganked twice not how many frigging toons you have.... And GFY cool story bro

i'm sorry under what context? first few toons i leveled i saw alliance but never engaged in pvp, think it was the first 3, maybe 4.
after that i recall having to run away on a couple of toons and being killed but just not very often.. the first gank i remember was unlocking drustvar area, they were waiting where the quest comes up from the cliffs.
I just left those from then on until i was 119 and people weren't as keen to pick a fight by then(it did still happen)

I'm going to have to look up where i said twice maybe on a certain character? ahh i see the comment, yeah i meant character wise, perhaps i've been killed like 7 times this expansion? (by players) i don't pvp and i have a really nice quick system for leveling toons (https://i.imgur.com/2GfIbT2.jpg) my main server.
I think my latest toon was leveled over a month ago now.


*edited*
My point again and again is "stop complaining about being ganked and just deal with it, because it isn't that bad"

[McFuu]

It worked, people just threw a bitch-fit over it because they couldn't gank lowbies or quest-givers anymore.

The people that ganked lowbies, continued to do so. Except now when they would group with people, they could also troll their own faction by ganking and lowering everyone's honor.

[The Stormbringer]

The people that ganked lowbies, continued to do so. Except now when they would group with people, they could also troll their own faction by ganking and lowering everyone's honor.

Don't group with people ganking lowbies, then?

EDIT: I thought Vanilla was all about the 'community policing itself'?

[SirCowdog]

im calling bullshit on only be ganked twice not how many frigging toons you have.... And GFY cool story bro

Don't know if it's relevant, but even as horde, the last time I leveled up a toon for the guide I was ganked 5 times by capped alliance players during the process. That's 5 different capped alliance players, some of which killed me and camped(at which point I just logged off and went to make a sandwhich and do some household chores).

It was pretty lame on the side of the alliance character, but didn't really hurt me personally. But then again, I'm a veteran of a PVP server and am used to weaksauce bored trolls thinking they're somehow cool for "fighting" low level players. :/ There was no PVP generated from these events. Nobody came to stop the ganker. A few people complained in general, and a few people logged over to their mains, but by the ganker didn't stick around to fight. It was one big fat waste of time for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it wasn't false at all. Those capped players who are actually ganking low level characters probably got their asses handed to them more than just 6 out of 7 times in the past.

Not by leveling characters, they didn't. Which is my point. Those capped players need to be fighting other capped players. There's ZERO healthy PVP to be gained from ganking.

There, getting "fair" aka scripted one vs one, two vs two etc. fights, just like BG's provide you. There is no strawmans used (by me atleast) jsut like I don't back up from my analogies etc.

You just quoted me and then misrepresented it again. :/

I NEVER said "scripted" anything. I never made mention of 1v1 or 2v2 as a specific case. That was all you. The only time I even said anything remotely similar is when I made the statement that most WPVP encounters in the wild are solo players. Which is a simple statement of fact. Most people who are leveling up characters do so solo, and when they run into an enemy player, that person is likely also soloing. That's not what I want it to be; that's simply a factual statement.

The reference to BGs was about scaling, not about perfectly equal matches. You just made a pile of assumptions and ran with it.

And, again, in your solution the two are the same. Want to remove actual ganking? make character unkillable by a player who killed you 5 times in the last 15 minutes.

What's the difference between being "unkillable" and simply not seeing the other player at all? How does your solution promote or encourage WPVP? Couldn't the capped player still interfere with WPVP by healing low level players of their own faction?

The system was and is good, it could be better via actual WPvP rewards, but changing the fundamental part of everyone taking part in WPvP would just destroy the whole system and make the world just one empty battleground with really nothing to fear.

The only thing destroying WPVP is Blizzard's current setup. Players shouldn't be afraid to engage in playing the game. They shouldn't have to worry about being shit on with no chance to fight back. They shouldn't have to risk being trolled and camped just to turn on their PVP flag.

And before you twist that statement, no, I don't mean they should always get a perfectly scripted Battleground type fight or 1v1 duel. They should simply get a change to fight players of their own level range. If that fight results in losing, at least the fight would be against characters their own level, in an environment where there is at least a CHANCE of fighting back.

There's nothing good about allowing high level players to kill low level players, and there are better ways to fuel faction pride and loyalty than by basing in on salt generated from toxic behavior. Restricting ganking would not ruin PVP or make the world empty. You have zero evidence or grounds for that statement. All it would do is take weaksuace toxic players and require them to PVP against people in their own level range. WPVP would continue to happen at all levels of the game, just without ganking.

There would no loss of anything significant besides the "PVP" that happens when a troll decides to shit on a low level player. You are VASTLY overestimating the value of ganking.

[lappee]

Not by leveling characters, they didn't. Which is my point. Those capped players need to be fighting other capped players. There's ZERO healthy PVP to be gained from ganking.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It could be they got their asses handed to them by lower level players when they were playing their alts. More often than not players that actually gank did get triggered by losing hard.

Actual ganking still does offer the extreme feeling of fear of it happening, which is still very rare. By all means fix it but not in the way you've been describing as that'll just destroy WPvP.

You just quoted me and then misrepresented it again. :/

I NEVER said "scripted" anything. I never made mention of 1v1 or 2v2 as a specific case. That was all you. The only time I even said anything remotely similar is when I made the statement that most WPVP encounters in the wild are solo players. Which is a simple statement of fact. Most people who are leveling up characters do so solo, and when they run into an enemy player, that person is likely also soloing. That's not what I want it to be; that's simply a factual statement.

The reference to BGs was about scaling, not about perfectly equal matches. You just made a pile of assumptions and ran with it.

Aiming for "balanced and fair" WPvP is the exact same thing as calling for scripted pvp such as battlegrounds, it is a simple fact and doesn't change even if you didn't specifically say "1v1 or 2v2" because it is implied in the word "fair". Unless "fair" to you means completely opposite to what is means for the rest of the world.

Most WPvP encounters are far from being 1v1's, most WPvP encounters actually happen in world quest locations where there are multiple people. Its actually really hard to find 1v1 situations since people are in specific places and routes to them are very direct. IF your "fact" was actually the case then there would be no whining from Alliance side about War Mode.

Leveling people surely run into people that are solo but the chance that they're at the same level range is still very thin, the chances that they'll even run into anyone are already thin. You, and people like you, want to separate them even further into level brackets that feel "fair" which will only result in never seeing anyone and being unable group up with anyone. It would completely undermine everything Blizzard did with old world scaling.
If there happens to be a rush into leveling once 8.1 hits then people will group up in order to ease the opposing forces, which will again be a state of "unfairness" and result in people like you whining for a different shard where only grouped up people show up.

IT is a never ending shitshow and the only solution is for people like you to man up or choose to not play in Warmode and do BG's instead.

What's the difference between being "unkillable" and simply not seeing the other player at all? How does your solution promote or encourage WPVP? Couldn't the capped player still interfere with WPVP by healing low level players of their own faction?

That the world is a dangerous place, no extra servers needed. Encourages for groupin, asking for help. The benefits are numerous, people just don't want to use them.

The only thing destroying WPVP is Blizzard's current setup. Players shouldn't be afraid to engage in playing the game. They shouldn't have to worry about being shit on with no chance to fight back. They shouldn't have to risk being trolled and camped just to turn on their PVP flag.

And before you twist that statement, no, I don't mean they should always get a perfectly scripted Battleground type fight or 1v1 duel. They should simply get a change to fight players of their own level range. If that fight results in losing, at least the fight would be against characters their own level, in an environment where there is at least a CHANCE of fighting back.

There's nothing good about allowing high level players to kill low level players, and there are better ways to fuel faction pride and loyalty than by basing in on salt generated from toxic behavior. Restricting ganking would not ruin PVP or make the world empty. You have zero evidence or grounds for that statement. All it would do is take weaksuace toxic players and require them to PVP against people in their own level range. WPVP would continue to happen at all levels of the game, just without ganking.

There would no loss of anything significant besides the "PVP" that happens when a troll decides to shit on a low level player. You are VASTLY overestimating the value of ganking.

You want to engage in War Mode then you should be afraid of facing people of any level at any time. Don't want it? Don't opt in it. It really is that simple.

So you don't want a scripted battleground fight but you want the equivalent in the outdoor world, which is exactly a scripted battleground fight. A "fair" fight of your own level range (which alone is depatable what is a "fair" level range). People at low leve ranges are already whining about healers being too strong and impossible to kill, imagine what 2v1's are when that happens. It is, as I said, a never ending shitshow of "I want it to be fairer and fairer and fairer until I have 50% winrate".

There absolutely is good in letting World PvP involve everyone. It can further friendships, cause mass battles, envy, joy, admiration, all kinds of feelings. Also ganking does not require a higher level, one can gank just fine with a level appropriate character - sometimes I really wonder if you even know what the word you're constantly using to defend your stance actually means.
Restricting ganking in the way you and the people like you have proposed would indeed make the world emptier. You would see less players around, only a handful of people who turned off Warmode because of high levels would return because they simply don't like PvP and the rest are still playing with Warmode on. Its true I have no other basis but basic logic and my own experience for the matter but then again you don't have any evidence either. The only actual evidence is that PvP servers were well populated and for majority the only affect from them was the outdoor world, aka World PVP, since everything else, except mythic raidin, could be done cross-server.

[Twdft]

Aiming for "balanced and fair" WPvP is the exact same thing as calling for scripted pvp such as battlegrounds, it is a simple fact and doesn't change even if you didn't specifically say "1v1 or 2v2" because it is implied in the word "fair". Unless "fair" to you means completely opposite to what is means for the rest of the world.

Most WPvP encounters are far from being 1v1's, most WPvP encounters actually happen in world quest locations where there are multiple people. Its actually really hard to find 1v1 situations since people are in specific places and routes to them are very direct. IF your "fact" was actually the case then there would be no whining from Alliance side about War Mode.

At this point it's clear to me, that you deliberately do not want to understand what SirCowdog is writing.

[saintminya]

SirCowdog just wants everything to be instanced and "fair". Lappee has been setting it straight the whole thread.

I'll say it again, the real solution here is to remove the rewards and incentives. If you still complain about PVP then, then it is clearly not for you.