The warmode and the people ruining it

[In Ogres We Trust]

What happened to arguing for "Fair PvP" a/k/a level-scaling the individual to the zone?

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Okay... after browsing the thread, I'll suggest the following solutions:

a) Scale the individuals to the zone and/or the intended range, e.g. within the EK and Kalimdor, a level 120 player would hit like a level 60 player (to me, this rewards the higher level, but it gives the lower level a fighting chance - with or without additional assistance).
b) Bring back dishonorable kills and/or dishonor that accumulates over time (for attacking lower levels outside of a certain range, etc.).
c) Introduce a bounty system that rewards higher level participation against "gankers", etc.
d) Extend the Sanctuary zones to level 40 (to be honest, I don't remember the actual term for the lower zones, but I'm referencing the low-level zones with PvP disabled by default).

[pinkz]

i have players on some FULL monster population pre-BFA PVE servers. those who PVP'd did it thru BGs, arenas, WGs, etc. the people ruining warmode are predom PVE server levelers wanting extra XP, when they hit what ever level they are seeking turn it off. the majority of them aren't PVP'rs to begin with.

the QQ level on the server ramped up rather insanely, in trade/guild chat and zones, they love their extra XP boost, whine about getting killed in STV, westfall, etc etc.they have little to no experience of what it is like on PVP servers before warmode option. STV for example on PVP servers never quit being a warzone, due to content that brings players of all levels there. on PVE servers leveling thru STV was a skippity do da care bear experience, they turn warmode on and they are shocked.

[lappee]

a) Scale the individuals to the zone and/or the intended range, e.g. within the EK and Kalimdor, a level 120 player would hit like a level 60 player (to me, this rewards the higher level, but it gives the lower level a fighting chance - with or without additional assistance).

This is what Guild Wars did, though its still not "fair" because of all the gear and extra abilities. Sadly Blizzard did their system the other way around and scales mobs instead of players.

[Twdft]

SirCowdog just wants everything to be instanced and "fair". Lappee has been setting it straight the whole thread.

No. He doesn't want everything to be "fair", he wants to have opponents where the outcome isn't a forgone conclusion like 120s roflstomping through lowies. Lappee twists SirCowdogs words every post.

[saintminya]

He only wants to fight people in the same bracket, yet he wants to level in warmode. That is best done in battlegrounds, considering the majority of people engaging in world pvp are at or near the cap. It should be noted, and I'm not sure if it has been yet, that World PVP has always favoured the attacking party. Regardless of their level. If you were a 117 Monk and engaged a 120 whatever you'd have the advantage. Nothing about it has ever been fair to the guy getting attacked, and that is as it should be.

Not sure who mentioned it, but the scaling of damage is the most horrenedous thing I've seen suggested so far here. Having only similarly-leveled characters getting their own phase is a decent-enough thought, and one I had agreed with a while back, but still is too reliant on dividing the world up. This would likely lead to you being able to engage with people closer to your level, but probably mean there'd be far less of them around. If you want people in your same level bracket, battlegrounds are always there for you.

[lappee]

No. He doesn't want everything to be "fair", he wants to have opponents where the outcome isn't a forgone conclusion like 120s roflstomping through lowies. Lappee twists SirCowdogs words every post.

So in other words he wants it fair, since if it isn't fair then the outcome is exactly the same as with 120's roflstomping you.
I'm just translating it to be clear for everyone what he, and people like him, wants. It really is just that simple.

[Twdft]

So in other words he wants it fair, since if it isn't fair then the outcome is exactly the same as with 120's roflstomping you.
I'm just translating it to be clear for everyone what he, and people like him, wants. It really is just that simple.

And again you twist and turn.

It's pointless discussing with you, have a nice day.

[lappee]

And again you twist and turn.

It's pointless discussing with you, have a nice day.

You claim that all the time yet you don't actually prove it. Its understandable that you don't like what your words actually mean but that isn't my fault, you just have to learn to accept the facts and live with them.

[SirCowdog]

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It could be they got their asses handed to them by lower level players when they were playing their alts. More often than not players that actually gank did get triggered by losing hard.

Actual ganking still does offer the extreme feeling of fear of it happening, which is still very rare. By all means fix it but not in the way you've been describing as that'll just destroy WPvP.

Whatever reason for initially deciding to take your capped toon into a low level area and troll around, it's still unacceptable. Two wrongs don't make a right in this context.

Aiming for "balanced and fair" WPvP is the exact same thing as calling for scripted pvp such as battlegrounds, it is a simple fact and doesn't change even if you didn't specifically say "1v1 or 2v2" because it is implied in the word "fair". Unless "fair" to you means completely opposite to what is means for the rest of the world.

Most WPvP encounters are far from being 1v1's, most WPvP encounters actually happen in world quest locations where there are multiple people. Its actually really hard to find 1v1 situations since people are in specific places and routes to them are very direct. IF your "fact" was actually the case then there would be no whining from Alliance side about War Mode.

I'm going to stop you there, because what it sounds like is that you're talking about level-capped WPVP. In which case I would tend to agree with you. There are a lot of complaints from alliance players at level cap about War Mode, and that's being addressed with sharding to balance out the population problem(which is the main complaint).

The interesting thing is that you and others have claimed that if ganking was limited, people would still complain about unfair fights where they're outnumbered. Except that we see Blizzard taking steps against the population imbalance, so it stands to reason that they would(using your own logic) ALSO be willing to limit ganking.

That the world is a dangerous place, no extra servers needed. Encourages for groupin, asking for help. The benefits are numerous, people just don't want to use them.

Yes, and that danger should come from players that people can fight, NOT from one-sided stompings where neither side actually gets to do anything meaningful. The encouragement to group up and ask for help would still happen, probably from the 2v1 or 3v1 fight you alluded to earlier.

You want to engage in War Mode then you should be afraid of facing people of any level at any time. Don't want it? Don't opt in it. It really is that simple.

Clearly it's NOT that simple, considering the argument going on here for nearly 40 pages. :/

So you don't want a scripted battleground fight but you want the equivalent in the outdoor world, which is exactly a scripted battleground fight. A "fair" fight of your own level range (which alone is depatable what is a "fair" level range). People at low leve ranges are already whining about healers being too strong and impossible to kill, imagine what 2v1's are when that happens. It is, as I said, a never ending shitshow of "I want it to be fairer and fairer and fairer until I have 50% winrate".

What I want is for players to have a chance to actually fight at all. 1v2 or even 1v3 fights ARE winnable. When I use the words "balanced" or "fair", I mean it within a range that allows for actual PVP to happen. I've said multiple times now that I am not suggesting some kind of perfectly scripted duel where players are guaranteed anything. YOU'RE the one who's stuck on this weird perfect battleground absolute justice fair duel scenario, not me.

There absolutely is good in letting World PvP involve everyone. It can further friendships, cause mass battles, envy, joy, admiration, all kinds of feelings. Also ganking does not require a higher level, one can gank just fine with a level appropriate character - sometimes I really wonder if you even know what the word you're constantly using to defend your stance actually means.

Restricting ganking in the way you and the people like you have proposed would indeed make the world emptier. You would see less players around, only a handful of people who turned off Warmode because of high levels would return because they simply don't like PvP and the rest are still playing with Warmode on. Its true I have no other basis but basic logic and my own experience for the matter but then again you don't have any evidence either. The only actual evidence is that PvP servers were well populated and for majority the only affect from them was the outdoor world, aka World PVP, since everything else, except mythic raidin, could be done cross-server.

I don't mind if everyone was involved in WPVP, so long as the ability to grief players with one-sided ganks is removed. Perhaps Blizzard can create a system where higher level player lose access to their abilities as they move into lower-level zones while War Mode is on, and stats could be scaled down to level-appropriate values.

My main purpose(again, for the record) is to stop the shitty toxic behavior of ganking by level capped players. And regardless of the terminology, it's the action of killing a low level player, with a character so powerful that there's LITERALLY no response to be made, that's the problem. I think the best way to do this is to use scaling and sharding. Blizzard appears to agree, at least in principle, since they've already done this for the 110-120 level range. Using that as a starting point is a good idea, and later changes can be made if it doesn't work.

Because ultimately I'd rather have zones with less players in them than subject more players to being ganked by bored trolls. At least on the rare occasions people ran into the opposite faction, they could actually fight instead of just being erased with no opportunity to fight at all.


(EDIT: For the record, I do not believe that sharding and scaling would empty zones like you think. I think that as more people started leveling without fear of being shit on, populations would increase, and thus also WPVP encounters would as well. Especially given new allied races and heritage armors as incentives to start new characters)

[lappee]

Whatever reason for initially deciding to take your capped toon into a low level area and troll around, it's still unacceptable. Two wrongs don't make a right in this context.

Indeed it doesn't and doing a 3rd wrong (destorying WPvP) makes it even less right.

I'm going to stop you there, because what it sounds like is that you're talking about level-capped WPVP. In which case I would tend to agree with you. There are a lot of complaints from alliance players at level cap about War Mode, and that's being addressed with sharding to balance out the population problem(which is the main complaint).

The interesting thing is that you and others have claimed that if ganking was limited, people would still complain about unfair fights where they're outnumbered. Except that we see Blizzard taking steps against the population imbalance, so it stands to reason that they would(using your own logic) ALSO be willing to limit ganking.

I was talking about WPvP as a whole, since thats what your words meant when you blatantly claim something to be a fact when its not.

Ganking at max level is even more rare than it is during leveling, it simply isn't an issue to begin with (apart from the whiners who are basically saying getting killed by anyone higher than you is ganking). Balancing shards will lessen it at max level yes but it still won't remove it and it definitely won't remove getting killed by a raid of other faction at world bosses and group quest objectives. As long as sharding and grouping exist together it will happen.
What it won't do is help in the old world, there simply isn't enough players to even beg for sharding.

Yes, and that danger should come from players that people can fight, NOT from one-sided stompings where neither side actually gets to do anything meaningful. The encouragement to group up and ask for help would still happen, probably from the 2v1 or 3v1 fight you alluded to earlier.

The danger should come from everyone of the opposing faction. If there is a high level killing low lever passbyers then you should call for a high level friend and cause some action there or bond with the low levels and group up agains the high level given the level difference isn't too great.

Clearly it's NOT that simple, considering the argument going on here for nearly 40 pages. :/

No, it really is that simple. Some people are just too dumb to understand 1+1 and there are people who continuously try to teach them the answer, thus all the pages.

What I want is for players to have a chance to actually fight at all. 1v2 or even 1v3 fights ARE winnable. When I use the words "balanced" or "fair", I mean it within a range that allows for actual PVP to happen. I've said multiple times now that I am not suggesting some kind of perfectly scripted duel where players are guaranteed anything. YOU'RE the one who's stuck on this weird perfect battleground absolute justice fair duel scenario, not me.

And yet what you just described is exactly what scripted battlegrounds are. You can get into 1v2, 1v3 situations and still be able to win them out. You won't get into a situation of 1v10 or 1v15 (unless you really charge into opposing faction in Epic Battlegrounds) and you won't get into situations where you're outleveled by 10's of levels.

So after all, you're all about wanting those balanced scripted battlegrounds of no1 being around. Just like I've been saying all along.

I don't mind if everyone was involved in WPVP, so long as the ability to grief players with one-sided ganks is removed. Perhaps Blizzard can create a system where higher level player lose access to their abilities as they move into lower-level zones while War Mode is on, and stats could be scaled down to level-appropriate values.

My main purpose(again, for the record) is to stop the shitty toxic behavior of ganking by level capped players. And regardless of the terminology, it's the action of killing a low level player, with a character so powerful that there's LITERALLY no response to be made, that's the problem. I think the best way to do this is to use scaling and sharding. Blizzard appears to agree, at least in principle, since they've already done this for the 110-120 level range. Using that as a starting point is a good idea, and later changes can be made if it doesn't work.

Because ultimately I'd rather have zones with less players in them than subject more players to being ganked by bored trolls. At least on the rare occasions people ran into the opposite faction, they could actually fight instead of just being erased with no opportunity to fight at all.


(EDIT: For the record, I do not believe that sharding and scaling would empty zones like you think. I think that as more people started leveling without fear of being shit on, populations would increase, and thus also WPVP encounters would as well. Especially given new allied races and heritage armors as incentives to start new characters)

Blizzard will NEVER cause players to lose out on their abilities when going to lower level zones, it would be anti-rpg and the whining about PvP talents being lost when entering PvE dungeons has already proven it is a wrong way to take. Scaling people to the same level, like other games already do, would be a better solution than the current one but I doubt Blizzard will re-do all of their work and it still wouldn't be "fair" for the low levels, just an illusion of it.

So you don't want to actually stop ganking, you just want to make everything "fair" aka what battlegrounds are. Exactly what battlegrounds are. So the solution still is the same, don't level in Warmode but rather just do battlegrounds for your PvP desires. It really is that simple.

Dividing players even further in the world will just make the world feel even emptier than what it currently is. There are very few people around in non-Warmode world and only a handful of those would re-opt-in to Warmode, only to find the world being sharded so that you can't actually see anyone around unless you make the shards contain so large amount of different levels that you'll eventually find yourself in the same situation of high levels (just not cap levels this time) killing lower levels actually changing nothing but that you can't call out for help from your cap level friends.

[SirCowdog]

Indeed it doesn't and doing a 3rd wrong (destorying WPvP) makes it even less right.

You have no grounds to make such an assumption, and haven't even made any convincing arguments that scaling and sharding would lead to the "destruction of WPVP". Blizzard even seems to think the opposite, since they're doing exactly what I describe from 110-120. You're attempting to over-exaggerate some fantasy negative effect because you don't want to admit you might not be right. :/

I was talking about WPvP as a whole, since thats what your words meant when you blatantly claim something to be a fact when its not.

This entire time I've been talking about ganking low level players. That does NOT include whatever WPVP happens at level cap, or in the current expansion's zones. That matter is already addressed by Blizzard. If you want to try and extend the scope to that area in order to support your argument, it just doesn't work. It's flawed logic.

Ganking at max level is even more rare than it is during leveling, it simply isn't an issue to begin with (apart from the whiners who are basically saying getting killed by anyone higher than you is ganking). Balancing shards will lessen it at max level yes but it still won't remove it and it definitely won't remove getting killed by a raid of other faction at world bosses and group quest objectives. As long as sharding and grouping exist together it will happen.
What it won't do is help in the old world, there simply isn't enough players to even beg for sharding.

There is no "ganking" at level cap. It's just regular WPVP. :/ Something you claim to want to support. All I'm suggesting is applying the same sorts of more or less equal-power fights, but at lower level ranges.

Also, no one is begging. This has been a mostly civil discussion the past few pages. Kindly do not drag it down by attempting to portray people that disagree with you as engaging in pitiful behavior.

The danger should come from everyone of the opposing faction. If there is a high level killing low lever passbyers then you should call for a high level friend and cause some action there or bond with the low levels and group up agains the high level given the level difference isn't too great.

The danger SHOULD come from the opposing faction, yes. However, you should not be required to call in strangers or friends simply to have a chance to fight back. That should be something you can do on your own, at your own level. You might not win, especially if outnumbered. But you should at least be able to fire back to some effect. 1v2 or even 1v3 battles are VERY winnable if a person is skilled and aware, but no amount of skill or awareness will save you from a capped player than one-shots.

No, it really is that simple. Some people are just too dumb to understand 1+1 and there are people who continuously try to teach them the answer, thus all the pages.

I'll ask you a second time: Please refrain from implying that opponents of your point of view are stupid or lacking somehow.

And yet what you just described is exactly what scripted battlegrounds are. You can get into 1v2, 1v3 situations and still be able to win them out. You won't get into a situation of 1v10 or 1v15 (unless you really charge into opposing faction in Epic Battlegrounds) and you won't get into situations where you're outleveled by 10's of levels.

So after all, you're all about wanting those balanced scripted battlegrounds of no1 being around. Just like I've been saying all along.

There is nothing scripted about randomly running into an enemy player while questing. Or a group of players.

What I am arguing for is a reasonably fair chance to fight back. Once again I'll repeat: That is something you CAN NOT DO when ganked by a capped player.


/sigh

Whatever. It's become abundantly clear to me that you aren't interested in having an actual discussion. You just want to rant about issues no one has suggested or even brought up. Good day.

[lappee]

You have no grounds to make such an assumption, and haven't even made any convincing arguments that scaling and sharding would lead to the "destruction of WPVP". Blizzard even seems to think the opposite, since they're doing exactly what I describe from 110-120. You're attempting to over-exaggerate some fantasy negative effect because you don't want to admit you might not be right. :/

Sure I have, it is my opinion (well educated at that) about what would happen, just like its your opinion that killing low level players is wrong in the first place.

Except Blizzard isn't doing what you're describing. They are making balanced shards (and the rest would be horde only) but they're not dividing players from levelers and max level players.

This entire time I've been talking about ganking low level players. That does NOT include whatever WPVP happens at level cap, or in the current expansion's zones. That matter is already addressed by Blizzard. If you want to try and extend the scope to that area in order to support your argument, it just doesn't work. It's flawed logic.

Except when claimed your fact to be true, which is wasn't. You can't just state that "X is a fact" and then go I meant "X is only a fact when ZYWABCDERFG conditions are met". It doesn't support my argument, its just a statement of how your facts aren't actual facts.

There is no "ganking" at level cap. It's just regular WPVP. :/ Something you claim to want to support. All I'm suggesting is applying the same sorts of more or less equal-power fights, but at lower level ranges.

Also, no one is begging. This has been a mostly civil discussion the past few pages. Kindly do not drag it down by attempting to portray people that disagree with you as engaging in pitiful behavior.

There absolutely is ganking at level cap, I've done it numerous times myself. Stop using the word Ganking when you don't have the furthest clue of what it actually means.

Ans yes, people are begging or you just haven't actually paid any attention in the 40ish pages of this thread.

The danger SHOULD come from the opposing faction, yes. However, you should not be required to call in strangers or friends simply to have a chance to fight back. That should be something you can do on your own, at your own level. You might not win, especially if outnumbered. But you should at least be able to fire back to some effect. 1v2 or even 1v3 battles are VERY winnable if a person is skilled and aware, but no amount of skill or awareness will save you from a capped player than one-shots.

And thats simply where your idea of WPvP differs greatly from mine. Mine actually holds all players a part of WPvP (you know, all players are part of the world) while yours doesn't. What yours is is actual Battlegrounds as I've said many times before, yet you're unwilling to accept the fact.

I'll ask you a second time: Please refrain from implying that opponents of your point of view are stupid or lacking somehow.

Its a simple matter of a fact, there are people who can't count as simply math as 1+1. You yourself used this thread as an example and I gave you the exact reason why it has been so long.

There is nothing scripted about randomly running into an enemy player while questing. Or a group of players.

What I am arguing for is a reasonably fair chance to fight back. Once again I'll repeat: That is something you CAN NOT DO when ganked by a capped player.

And I'll tell you once again, go to battlegrounds as those are exactly what you're asking. AV being a perfect example, you can do the quests there and randomly run into a player(s). Sure there is a greater chance than in the open world since there are more people but its still random.

/sigh

Whatever. It's become abundantly clear to me that you aren't interested in having an actual discussion. You just want to rant about issues no one has suggested or even brought up. Good day.

Except I'm the one actually answering all points every time while you have been cherry picking and dismissing points you don't want to deal with, at one point you even refused to answer me at all. All the while just spouring the same "ideals" out of your mouth without anything to actually back it up with.

So clearly it is you who doesn't want to discuss but just spew your opinions around the place to destroy what we know as WPvP. Just go do your BG's while leveling in PvE mode and you'll be a happy man.

[saintminya]

Good advice above ^^^.

Evidently SirCowDog doesn't realize the thread has gone on to nearly 40 pages due to him re-iterating the same nonsense over and over. It's simple man, War Mode is just not for you.