Unlock Pathfinder 2, Flying Now.

[babyback]

Was getting extra bored of Legion, tired of doing the same old crap, because it was all a time investment. Fast forward to flying in legion, I started playing twice as much, I called in to work a lot, the fun parts of the expansion don't begin until you can fly. The fact it's time gated is dumb, and I guarantee it loses more subs than people realize.

What are the specific things that are so much more fun with flying? World questing, gathering herbs and treasures? The majority of what to do in WoW doesn’t have flying enabled.

[sam86]

Nah .. 8.2 is fine. Or maybe never would be better.

literally no one is forcing u to fly, u can always use ground mount, turn wm off, and it will have zero effect on u

If you don't like the game now, I doubt you will like it more far away from the ground. It will be the same game, with the same pros and cons, but you will be traveling faster from A to B.

flying save a lot of time on ground, if u hate something, it will be far more tolerable to do it in 1/3 of time it takes, if u like it, u'll get it faster
the only 'con' of flying is it show how low content the game has, something when they actually did gave us content didn't care about

[SirCowdog]

That is an interesting opinion...because according to this forum. Activision tells Blizzard what to do, yet Ion now is the wild card that decides everything?

I'm pretty sure Activision has very limited direct influence over WoW. They can almost certainly influence company wide policy, and I'm sure their underlying business ethics and methods bleed over, but Ion is the one directing the overall....direction of WoW. That's sort of his job as GAME DIRECTOR. I mean, he's not a dictator with ultimate power to control every single aspect of the game, but he is in the driver seat. He approves or disapproves projects. He probably has a hand in who does what job.

Basically, if he doesn't like flight, it's fully within his power to quash it and ensure that it's never used for anything meaningful in terms of gameplay. Why do you think flight is in the back seat, locked behind the entire expansion, and utterly useless for anything besides running content you already had to run 100 times?

If Ion wanted flight to actually be a real reward to work towards, there would be content to use it on. There would be quests surrounding it. It would be included in the lore and story of the expansion. The game would recognize that flight exists.

Instead it's an afterthought with more garbage piled in front of it than anything else in the game. Did you think that was a coincidence?

[Zanaku]

I do want flying. But I don't enjoy World Quests regardless of whether flying is in or not. So im not going to pretend like I will do those things if Blizzards adds flying in now. And I for DARN sure ain't gonna be grinding no reps lol.

[SirCowdog]

No, I don't think anything is a coincidence. I actually do think whatever we are getting is the result of analysing our behaviour in the game. Which is why "Blizzard doesn't get it, the game should be xyz" is just so /rolleyes

I'm sure there's a LOT of analyzing of player behavior. Blizzard has been doing the "take things away from the player then sell it back to them slowly" for awhile now. And they've gotten VERY good at manipulating player behavior and perception over the years.

No flying has been part of THAT particular equation for awhile, but BfA just brings it back to the surface because of how blatant the weak content design is. But you can see the formula in pretty much every aspect of the expansion.

So yeah, Blizzard doesn't get it. The game SHOULD be xyz that the players suggest. But Blizzard isn't interested in making a game for players any more. They're only interested in designing the game for one thing: Getting as much money out of customers with as little effort as possible. That'll work in the short term, but it's sacrificing long-term loyalty and interest. They're burning through the playerbase like wildfire right now. And if they keep up like this, there won't be much left for the following expansion.

[StrawberryZebra]

[MENTION=891678]I've always wondered why Blizzard didn't copy and attempt to improve the open world PVP zones that GW2, ESO, and long ago DAOC had. An entire set of full zones dedicated 100% to Faction vs Faction. They've done one-off zones like Wintergrasp and Tol'Barad, then later on Ashran, but never anything as extensive as those other games.

Dedicated wPvP zones tend to fail for a number of reasons, but most notable is that most of the serious wPvPers are only interested in it to grief, harass and otherwise inconvenience other players. Having an entire zone where everyone is on an even footing and ready to fight back isn't what they're after. They're also not looking for objective based combat either, which makes anything other than a simple deathmatch far less appealing.

Wintergrasp succeded because it had solid rewards locked away inside it. It had the reach to bring in players who were interested in almost every aspect of the game because they all had a stake in winning the battle, and it was a rewarding use of your time to participate even if you ultimately lost.

No, I don't think anything is a coincidence. I actually do think whatever we are getting is the result of analysing our behaviour in the game. Which is why "Blizzard doesn't get it, the game should be xyz" is just so /rolleyes

Just because they've analysed behaviour patterns doesn't always mean they've come to the right conclusions though. The same applies to other gaming companies too, they all collect a lot of impersonal data on their players. Yet we keep seeing them make the same mistakes and outraging their player bases over and over with big releases.

I'm not going out on a limb and saying that Blizzard are wrong here, but the method they've chosen to unlock it with is one that's very reductive. It's effectively a Bragging rights reward, where any worthwhile content you'd want to complete with your flying mount has long since been finished. If, like myself, you've got no alts at all completing Pathfinder is literally pointless.

[Deadite]

What? Content that people consider shit suddenly becomes awesome because you can fly?

Not awesome but i would fly to dig sites and fishing pools. I would fly to that WQ's that is up a mountain or down a cliff. All things i can't be arsed to do just now but would with flying. Now that we have done everything and been everywhere in the open world then we need convenience to kick in. That is what Blizz just doesn't seem to grasp. I have no problem doing Pathfinder. Happy to even. It is when they make you wait a year and add part 2 that honks me off.

[Jasperboy]

I think unlocking flying now will help with this lack of content drought and bring people back. I hardly log in anymore. If I had flying, I would start logging in, do World Quests, grind rep, quests and level alts. I think people would start playing again. What do ya'll think?

I would certainly like flying put in. There really is no reason now not to add it. We've had the xpac out for a while, everyone has had a chance to level. There really isn't a good reason beyond players will complete outdoor content too quickly and we want it to take longer so they play more and stay subbed longer.

Content drought????????

We've had the expac for a while?????

4months into BFA, 8.1 next week and allready a new raid mid/late January?
Oh yeah, we're lacking content and we've had BFA for ages. xD

Wont see flying until 8.2, at the earliest. So lean back, relax and grab a beer.

[Ange]

Dedicated wPvP zones tend to fail for a number of reasons, but most notable is that most of the serious wPvPers are only interested in it to grief, harass and otherwise inconvenience other players. Having an entire zone where everyone is on an even footing and ready to fight back isn't what they're after. They're also not looking for objective based combat either, which makes anything other than a simple deathmatch far less appealing.

This is the case since 14 years of WoW wPvP. Remember "LOL SAND" silithus pvp objectives? Nobody cared, the only wPvP was done to reputation/ScarabLord Quest players as pure grief and nothing else.

Nothing changed, wPvP remains a gaming mode for pure griefing. If somebody attacks you in wPvP in most cases its not a mythic raider or arena gladiator no its most likely the guy who gets voted out of daily battlegrounds or daily hc dungeons because of lack of participation or toxicity.

@Topic
No flying plx

[xenogear3]

It is not just flying, the amount of content lock from time gate is unbelievable.

If you don't want people to have it, don't put it in !
Don't waste people's time for grinding stupid achievements.

I am glad it has time token.
I just convert all my gold to battle.net balance, so I don't feel wasted my time.

[SirCowdog]

Dedicated wPvP zones tend to fail for a number of reasons, but most notable is that most of the serious wPvPers are only interested in it to grief, harass and otherwise inconvenience other players. Having an entire zone where everyone is on an even footing and ready to fight back isn't what they're after. They're also not looking for objective based combat either, which makes anything other than a simple deathmatch far less appealing.

Wintergrasp succeded because it had solid rewards locked away inside it. It had the reach to bring in players who were interested in almost every aspect of the game because they all had a stake in winning the battle, and it was a rewarding use of your time to participate even if you ultimately lost.



Just because they've analysed behaviour patterns doesn't always mean they've come to the right conclusions though. The same applies to other gaming companies too, they all collect a lot of impersonal data on their players. Yet we keep seeing them make the same mistakes and outraging their player bases over and over with big releases.

I'm not going out on a limb and saying that Blizzard are wrong here, but the method they've chosen to unlock it with is one that's very reductive. It's effectively a Bragging rights reward, where any worthwhile content you'd want to complete with your flying mount has long since been finished. If, like myself, you've got no alts at all completing Pathfinder is literally pointless.

Excellent points all around. I actually agree that most WPVP players are after griefing. I just last couple weeks trying to argue against allowing capped players to kill leveling players in War Mode, and was surprised at how many people came out of the woodwork to defend the practice. I and others suggeted anything from scaling to sharding to the old Warhammer Online "chicken" debuff when PVPing out of level. None of it was acceptable to "real" WPVP players.

I really do wonder what would have happened if Warfronts were open world and allowed PVP. Guess we'll never know.

But back on topic, I do think that Flying has an impact on PVP, both positive and negative. On the one hand flying can let people respond to battles happening across the world more quickly. On the other hand, it's very easy to swoop in or out of those battles, or just hover above someone waiting to pounce. This is another reason why the mechanics of flying probably need to change. Both in terms of environmental hazards or obstacles, and with controls. If players had to pay more attention to what they were doing while flying, it would be a bit more difficult to just hover over someone.

- - - Updated - - -

Problem is: Players don't speak with one voice - as witnessed in any "Flying yes or no" thread. And here you only have 2 options (though I lean towards claiming more players want to fly). Now take a thread why x-pac is the best and what people liked there and it gets all over the place.

Hell...it seemed people wanted Classic..no discussion about it. Look at the mess of opinion and wishes, now that they get it ^^

Doing classic was a combination of things, though. The lion's share of which was that if Blizzard DIDN'T defend their IP, they'd risk losing it to private server operators. It was less that they thought players wanted it so bad, and more that they kind of had to do something anyway, so why not throw the playerbase a bone at the same time?

But you're absolutely right about the players no speaking with one voice. Some sifting definitely need to be done. What I dislike about the flight issue is how Blizzard set up the echo chamber. I really REALLY don't believe for a second that the players arguing against flight are doing so with fair arguments. I've been at this argument longer than both, and 99.99% of points made against flying are either copy/paste versions of something Blizzard has said as an excuse, or based on some VERY shaky logic: "Flight ruins WPVP", for instance, or "Other people flying ruins mah immerzionz!" or my personal favorite "If I don't fly I can't remain competitive". :/

The other problem is that we really don't have any GOOD examples of content that use flight and modern world design technology. The last time zones were designed for flying to be present was MoP, and the last REALLY good zones for flying was arguably not since Deepholme. Think about that for a second.

What I wish Blizzard would do is the flip-side of the "no-fly island": Make a single zone that is specifically for flying mounts. Fill it with airships, floating islands, giant mountains and cliffs. Make that zone the best god damn flying area they've ever done, then judge player reaction to it. That would be a good measure, I think. But I simply can't trust Ion not to sabotage any such test in order to fit his confirmation bias.

[mysticx]

What are the specific things that are so much more fun with flying? World questing, gathering herbs and treasures? The majority of what to do in WoW doesn’t have flying enabled.

Those are things that benefit hugely from having travelling around random clifftops and useless damage sponge mobs removed, i'll keep saying it: having to spend more time travelling towards something to do than you spend actually doing it is lame, annoying, and in the age of lobby-games, people don't put up with it anymore.

Sure, having to put in effort to reach content to do is the MMORPG-way (Uphill, through knee-deep snow, BOTH WAYS!), but looking at the current state of the whole MMORPG genre, is that really a good thing?

[Pyrite13]

The only reason I don't want Blizzard to even attempt to give us Pathfinder right now is because they are so incompetent they would screw it up. I hope Blizzard learns that they have no business writing any form of software. They should just shut down all their current and planned games. Save the rest of us the trouble. Close the servers, delete the characters, then commit self-immolation. This is the only action Blizzard could take that would satisfy the WoW community.

[Confucius]

What are the specific things that are so much more fun with flying? World questing, gathering herbs and treasures? The majority of what to do in WoW doesn’t have flying enabled.

not getting constantly Dazed for starters

[CaptainV]

Personally I hope that when classic wow launches they focus more on bringing flying back to the expansions at launch, since classic fanboys will finally get the "no flying" game they always wanted and have no real excuse not to play it if they dont like flying.

Frankly, the argument against flying has never been compelling, or strong, its basically the argument no flying is more immersive, it isnt.

No flying adds nothing, no flying removes a content feature made for a purpose of adding more immersion.

Once again, its a simple fix, add areas that can *only* be accessed by using flying to begin with, areas that require a hefty economic boost per character to access.

An example of this is the verticality of Storm Peaks or the fact Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley had areas that ONLY flying allowed you accessability too.

Flying is a rite of passage, once reaching it you get more content, that is what it was for.

The weak argument that world pvpers have that "it ruins the immersion" is just that, if you dont like flying, go play classic wow, its comming, you have no more excuse.

[SirCowdog]

I'd like that....and it should be there from the start, as part of a levelling zone (and later for WQs etc)

Agreed. Solve the "Flying ruins immersion" complaints. Give players that want flying something to hold them over until pathfinder is available in the rest of the zones. Create some variety in the normal formula of grounded quest nodes.

Ion went on and on about how Argus was done the way it was because of artistic reasons, and that they couldn't present those areas in any other ways. Fine. I don't believe him, but ok, I have no way to prove otherwise. But if that's true, then do the same thing for a zone with flying. Lets see how good your artists and content designers really are. Lets see a zone that couldn't be done WITHOUT flying.

[kamuimac]

Agreed. Solve the "Flying ruins immersion" complaints. Give players that want flying something to hold them over until pathfinder is available in the rest of the zones. Create some variety in the normal formula of grounded quest nodes.

Ion went on and on about how Argus was done the way it was because of artistic reasons, and that they couldn't present those areas in any other ways. Fine. I don't believe him, but ok, I have no way to prove otherwise. But if that's true, then do the same thing for a zone with flying. Lets see how good your artists and content designers really are. Lets see a zone that couldn't be done WITHOUT flying.

ofc it was lie just like all that pathfinder bs.

its all done to make everything slower and boost MAU

there is no other reason .

[shise]

Make it a fee matter again.

3 million gold to unlock, but if you are exalted with all BFA factions it is 2 million, maybe even a mid term with other variables in play.

A lot of people have 3 million ready, but it is well known that the average player still doesn´t have that much, so it would bring the BC feeling again, it would give people many reasons to play and it would definitely make it feel rewarding.

People would grind, use professions, grind reputation to lower the cost... even Blizzard would sell more game tokens... It would also serve a as a gold dropping mechanism.

There would be a come back of bots, but hey, you can´t have it all and I wouldn´t mind it.

[SirCowdog]

Make it a fee matter again.

3 million gold to unlock, but if you are exalted with all BFA factions it is 2 million, maybe even a mid term with other variables in play.

A lot of people have 3 million ready, but it is well known that the average player still doesn´t have that much, so it would bring the BC feeling again, it would give people many reasons to play and it would definitely make it feel rewarding.

People would grind, use professions, grind reputation to lower the cost... even Blizzard would sell more game tokens... It would also serve a as a gold dropping mechanism.

There would be a come back of bots, but hey, you can´t have it all and I wouldn´t mind it.

That would instantly be accused of being a blatant cash-grab to sell WoW tokens. And the people saying so wouldn't be completely wrong.

The thing is, most people are ok with Pathfinder. Working to unlock flying is fine. What's NOT fine is the pointless, needless time gates on top of the grind. We should get flying when we do the work, not 8 months after we're already done.

[rrayy]

Make it a fee matter again.

3 million gold to unlock, but if you are exalted with all BFA factions it is 2 million, maybe even a mid term with other variables in play.

A lot of people have 3 million ready, but it is well known that the average player still doesn´t have that much, so it would bring the BC feeling again, it would give people many reasons to play and it would definitely make it feel rewarding.

People would grind, use professions, grind reputation to lower the cost... even Blizzard would sell more game tokens... It would also serve a as a gold dropping mechanism.

There would be a come back of bots, but hey, you can´t have it all and I wouldn´t mind it.

You are naive if you think that will happen. But thanks fore giving people actual reason to want Pathfinder back.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying is a rite of passage, once reaching it you get more content, that is what it was for.

That was never what it was for. It was simply a reward.