The Horde has been hijacked by cartoon villains

[Lord Pebbleton]

It showed that when orcs are given what they see as irrefutable evidence from the spirits that there are other races out there who want to enslave/kill them they pull out all the stops and attack believing the best defense is a good offense. It happened to the Old Horde, it happens with the orcs vs the Gorians, it happened with the Iron Horde. Sadly it never ocurred to the orcs that the spirits could be mislead, wrong, or impersonated.

Exactly. Turns out that, to the orcs, anything can be "irrefutable evidence". We didn't know that previously, we knew of them as a peaceful, honorable and shamanic society that was unfortunate enough to cross the demons' path. Today we know that if a guy that is believable enough turns up and says convincing things, they suddenly become warmongers.

[cparle87]

As I've said, that's easy to do in RTS because you play different battles to reach different goals. In MMO we all play same story, at least for now.

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Why do you say "brainwashing". Why are they even fighting if they could just "brainwash"? Did it ever occur to you that Orcs joined Lightbound willingly and those Mag'har you get - are only pathetic remnants bound on their old murderous ways?

Read
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lightbound

And https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lothraxion under Speculation

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Exactly. Turns out that, to the orcs, anything can be "irrefutable evidence". We didn't know that previously, we knew of them as a peaceful, honorable and shamanic society that was unfortunate enough to cross the demons' path. Today we know that if a guy that is believable enough turns up and says convincing things, they suddenly become warmongers.

If we went back in time and used modern technology to make it look like we were angels/spirits of the ancestors/loa what have you we could probably get primitive civilizations to do just about anything we want.

There's nothing saying a race can't be peaceful during peacetime and become violent and willing to do anything to survive if confronted with a threat. Actually, that would apply to pretty much all races.

[StaeleAilar]

No, we have been hijacked by biased and blatand pro alliance writing from the devs who take all of the 100% herotime attention towards demigod like Alliance heroes for the big spotlight, so only the villain corner is left to take, if we don't want to suffer as unnoticed sidekicks all the time. Ergo, blame Christie Golden, Alex Afrasiabi and the entire self absorbed Alliance community.

Projection much.. Sheesh

I do agree with the topic though that the horde has been hijacked by somewhat cartoonish villainry. And it's not a good way for the horde to be. That being said i also would NEVER support a return of Thrall to warchief. He was forced down our throats way too much.

[Blayze]

The Horde has ALWAYS been cartoon villains.

[Ujimasa Hojo]

The Horde has ALWAYS been cartoon villains.

Funny enough, it's the "honorable savages" like Thrall and Vol'jin who tried to hijack the cartoon villainous Horde in hindsight.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Exactly. Turns out that, to the orcs, anything can be "irrefutable evidence". We didn't know that previously, we knew of them as a peaceful, honorable and shamanic society that was unfortunate enough to cross the demons' path. Today we know that if a guy that is believable enough turns up and says convincing things, they suddenly become warmongers.

visions of the future with the good parts come out is a little more than he said they said.

[Deleted]

You don't need to be morally questionable to be proactive. Thousands of heroes in different stories are proactive and not questionable. Why people insist that you absolutely need to mix that somehow? BTW, I'm Horde player. And yes, I just want to play hero - either on Alliance side or on Horde. In WC3 I could. In WoW up to LK - too, but in WoW post-Cataclysm I can't. If you didn't noticed, WoW is a hero story: good guys band to go defeat evils and save the world, so playing villain is bound to be NOT fun, because you will lose at some moment. Badly. I don' know anyone who enjoys that.

Playing evil would be good in some other game where plot is focused on your domination, but not in WoW. So I am absolutely at loss why Blizzard continues to shove down player's throats "but thou must!" atrocities without any player agency and expect them to swallow and be happy.

I remember some dev said something like "we started with cartoon story, but then some cool stuff came like Harry Potter and GoT so we decided we need to 'upgrade' to that too". At that moment I thought "WTF is this shit about? Your story is older and you have your own fans exactly because your story is like it is. Why the fuck you feel desperate need to mimic edgelord newcomers?"

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Worm out of that then:
A Good War, p. 14: "What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions?". Sylvanas explicitly told Saurfang NE leadership would be alive post attack.

I know that you can be pro-active and be a good guy in theory. I blame Blizzard that they don't write the Alliance that way, and that this faction is stuck with the victim role. While Horde should be the faction which is the victim, but somehow managed to come out on top in the last expansions again and again. We don't get a clear path for the Horde, and thus the Alliance gets the better option, because at least they are the "morally good" ones, no matter how many black sheep there are in their ranks. Meanwhile, the Horde is flip-plopping from one extreme to another, and is bound to lose, no matter what they do, and no matter how many good guys there are in their ranks who want to save the world just like the heroes of the Alliance do. There is just no way to continue with this 2 faction concept anymore.

[Nightheart]

So has your mom! Come at me MMO Champion's Scrapbot =P

[Flurryfang]

I just think the game has been hijacked by inactivity xD

There would be nothing wrong with the "evil" leaders of today, if we actually saw people take an opinion towards them and see them act upon that. I still can't understand why Blizzard, even with their War Campaign, still manages to make it seem like the Horde and Alliance leaders are just sitting in their chairs and waiting for something. The only active character on the side of the Horde is Gallywix and Nathanos, which are just one "side" of the horde. Where is Baine? What is happening to the orcs and trolls now that they have no leader, why not spend a few quests on finding that out instead of just making 9 quests to hunt for corpses in Stormsong. From what i see, the Alliance is not doing much better, with the entire council of three hammers just sitting still, with Greymane just laying in his dog basket and Anduin just standing at the top of his Harbour sending troops off to nowhere.

One would think that after all this time, Blizzard would have learnt to actually create a story that feels alive in WoW, instead of just "see you next time folks" mentality.

[Lord Pebbleton]

visions of the future with the good parts come out is a little more than he said they said.

Sorry, I couldn't understand what you mean.

[Grigor II]

I know that you can be pro-active and be a good guy in theory. I blame Blizzard that they don't write the Alliance that way, and that this faction is stuck with the victim role. While Horde should be the faction which is the victim, but somehow managed to come out on top in the last expansions again and again. We don't get a clear path for the Horde, and thus the Alliance gets the better option, because at least they are the "morally good" ones, no matter how many black sheep there are in their ranks. Meanwhile, the Horde is flip-plopping from one extreme to another, and is bound to lose, no matter what they do, and no matter how many good guys there are in their ranks who want to save the world just like the heroes of the Alliance do. There is just no way to continue with this 2 faction concept anymore.

They could continue if the writers somehow were to stop with the villain bat, seriously making Sylvanas Warchief was just to promote this war and for worse she has become in a cartoony villain that can't understand the horde is very fragil and are capable of overthrowing their own rulers, unlike the alliance that even after all the crap their leader can pull, they will still follow loyalty(just look at Calia)

[Deleted]

And the sky is blue i guess?

All super-villains are shallow and cartoony. Any depth, subtleties and story potential to a character are lost the moment they decide to satisfy their god-complex, because that's when small things stop mattering and story-wise you'll be dealing with boring logistical decisions such as "what to bomb next out of X potential targets" instead of the important stuff, such as Sylvanas's porn folder.

[Destinas]

The problem lies less with the Horde itself, and more with the concept of a faction war in general. One or both sides have to be the aggressor, yet neither side can truly "win" in a game that lets you play both sides.

In the end, the characters in the Horde aren't acting any different than they ever have. Sylvanas (since becoming the Banshee Queen) has always created plague, sought out Scourge allies, and attacked others (like in Silverpine and Gilneas). Nathanos has always been blindly loyal to Sylvanas. Gallywix has always sought fame, fortune, and a way to protect his own ass. Baine has always been more passive, open to negotiations and peace. Orcs like Saurfang (and his older brother, Brox) have always sought honor, and thus an honorable death in battle.

Alliance-side, Anduin has always sought peace and negotiations, much like Baine (thus why they have been friends in the past). Tyrande has always been a bit vengeful, and she hasn't trusted the Horde since the Third War. Jaina hasn't always been so angry, but it's certainly been quite a few years during WoW's lifetime now. Genn has hated the Horde since the Second War, and he's hated Sylvanas (and the Horde) since the Cataclysm. Mekkatorque has always been a strong ally to the Alliance with a sharp mind.

None of these characters are acting out of character. That, however, is a bad combination at the moment. It puts pretty much the entirety of the faction conflict on the Horde, making the Alliance the underdogs. Therefore, any aggressive action the Alliance takes is either seen as justified (Siege of Lordaeron, Darkshore warfront), or seen as out of character (attacking the Vulpera). Lots of other characters have little to do with the current plot, but are there sometimes anyway (Turalyon, Liadrin, Thalyssra, etc) or they're not even part of BfA's story at all (Velen, Thrall, Lor'themar, Mayla, etc).

If Blizzard wanted to create a faction story, they could have easily done so by making both the Alliance and Horde leadership slightly more aggressive in different areas. By the Horde attacking first, in such a large way, with Sylvanas at the helm, it only serves to make the Horde seem like mustache-twisting villains - but it's really just Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Gallywix like that in the end. But, it would be difficult for a faction conflict to work with the current cast of characters anyway.

[rowaasr13]

Read
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lightbound
And https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lothraxion under Speculation

I don't believe a single world this paranoid and murderous shit Geya'rah is spewing. Talking about anything forced on anyone while killing Ogres "subdued long ago"?.. Pffft.
And sorry, but I won't read anything under "speculation".

[cparle87]

I don't believe a single world this paranoid and murderous shit Geya'rah is spewing. Talking about anything forced on anyone while killing Ogres "subdued long ago"?.. Pffft.
And sorry, but I won't read anything under "speculation".

So you're ignoring ingame lore because you don't like the npc who said it. And ignoring possibilities because Blizz haven't said they were true. Better inform the presses and shut down the forums, because everything we saw and speculate about the lore won't be read by poster Rowaasr13. And what about Xe'ra trying to forcibly infuse the light into Illidan?

[Grigor II]

So you're ignoring ingame lore because you don't like the npc who said it. And ignoring possibilities because Blizz haven't said they were true. Better inform the presses and shut down the forums, because everything we saw and speculate about the lore won't be read by poster Rowaasr13. And what about Xe'ra trying to forcibly infuse the light into Illidan?

Well Illidan is a jerk and lightforge him won't be bad because Fel energy is totally chaotic and that is the new personality of Illidan, just look at the dresdlord with light, I take that before the dumbass orcs or elves with genocidial tendencies.

Also the enslavement of the ogres is part of the questline do it's canon as the sermon of the high exarch

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sorry, I couldn't understand what you mean.

Garrosh did a little more than simply go “hey band together and be the iron horde because I said so” he used the shard of time to show the future to Grom, showing the orcs drinking the fel blood and eventually their lives as prisoners in camps. He showed nothing of thrall or the frost wolves and murdered the shaman that would have told Grom otherwise.

[cparle87]

Well Illidan is a jerk and lightforge him won't be bad because Fel energy is totally chaotic and that is the new personality of Illidan, just look at the dresdlord with light, I take that before the dumbass orcs or elves with genocidial tendencies.

Also the enslavement of the ogres is part of the questline do it's canon as the sermon of the high exarch

I wasn't referring to the ogres at all. I was talking about Rowa flat out denying that the draenei were brainwashing people with the Light by forcibly converting them to Lightbound. So I cited other instances where the Light has been used for such purposes, such as Lothraxxion and Illidan. Rowa flat out said he wasn't even going to look at Lothraxxion because it was "speculation" and would ignore anything Geya'rah said because he doesn't like the character.

As for the whole Light thing, too much order is just as big a problem as too much chaos. And the Light flew headlong into mind control and suppression of free will in their quest to become "orderly".

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Garrosh did a little more than simply go “hey band together and be the iron horde because I said so” he used the shard of time to show the future to Grom, showing the orcs drinking the fel blood and eventually their lives as prisoners in camps. He showed nothing of thrall or the frost wolves and murdered the shaman that would have told Grom otherwise.

Precisely. That's one thing people often overlook. Garrosh showed them their corruption, bloodthirstiness, and imprisonment, all bad things. Without showing them taking their freedom, reconnecting with their roots and culture, finding a new home, finding new allies, and so on. All good things. So all the orcs saw was "we're gonna get screwed over end of story."

[Lord Pebbleton]

Garrosh did a little more than simply go “hey band together and be the iron horde because I said so” he used the shard of time to show the future to Grom, showing the orcs drinking the fel blood and eventually their lives as prisoners in camps. He showed nothing of thrall or the frost wolves and murdered the shaman that would have told Grom otherwise.

I know. But they still trusted an outsider with the fate of their world, without knowing his true intentions or if he was trustworthy; and it bit them in the ass real hard because everyone knows how it went down.
This makes me think of Medivh trying to warn the human empires, and humans not believing a single word, which is almost the exact same scenario but in reverse. I know the story has to move forward and I'm fine with that, I just think they could have done it better without making the orcs as a race look bad.

[rowaasr13]

So you're ignoring ingame lore

For some reason you take her every word for absolute truth. As if no NPC ever speaks lies, speaks something he doesn't really know about, speaks something that is easily proven false in future or speaks something from his own point of view. WoD orcs are murderous fucktards even without Gul'dan, if you've missed the story. Everything they've done up to HFC, including yet another invasion to Azeroth and yet another backstab of Draenei was of their own free will. Only you ignore game lore here.

Boo-fucking-hoo, evil Light Police tyrants with their evil laws and evil order don't allow good chaotic murdershits to remain good stupid bitches and want to punish them. By curing them of murdershitism and then joining forces! Cry me a river about this harsh punishment.

If you have bad memory, we're talking about faction which according to "in-game lore":
* Conquered Highmaul gave them an "offer" to either give up all their magical secrets or be genocided (not that I love Ogres much, but I don't like genocide either)
* Made same generous "offer" to its own clans - Shadowmoon was told to forget about astrology, death-speaking and prophecy and provide some battle magic or be exterminated. Not for opposing Iron Horde, but for being useless. This pushed Ner'zhul 1) away from his mate and 2) made his soul consumed by void so bad, even Velen couldn't help him.
* Didn't had any problem with abusing dark naaru (We proud orcz, hate fel, void is ok though!)
* ...and finally proven that they will do everything just to stay murdershits by drinking demon blood anyway when things gone bad for them!

Yeah, those good and straight members of society deserve ten times to be left alone and unchecked.

Even those who rejected Iron Horde are either family killers or raving lunatics. And even post IH they've already managed to eradicate Primals, turning entire Gorgrond into desert and STILL keep Ogres as slaves.

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Without showing them taking their freedom, reconnecting with their roots and culture, finding a new home, finding new allies, and so on. All good things. So all the orcs saw was "we're gonna get screwed over end of story."

Too bad WoD shown us that their "roots" isn't any different to their supposed "fel craze".

Aw... Why I'm blaming everything on WoD? Every. Fucking. Expansion. Post-Cataclysm. When Orcs were long past their demon influence shown us again and again that "orc see - orc kill" or "orc see - orc plunder" is the only thoughts in their empty boneheads. With very very few exceptions, almost always related to influence from Alliance-race individual.