South Africa to take land from white farmers without compensation

[MrKnowItAll]

I hope they just wreck the land and/or sell everything with trees included during the last days of the ownership.

[JohnBrown1917]

What are you even talking about?
Who doesn't want what?

Try reading his post.

- - - Updated - - -

Could you link me a left leaning youtuber or news agency that is not completely ignoring the murders and theft?

I don't see why he should provide a source for this.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

So, take these terms, or suffer... how very nice. You seem to be mistaking Hamas for the Palestinian people. So, it's oppression, just oppression you find acceptable.

Their suffering is largely a result of them not taking the terms. I'm fine with them rejecting the terms in favor of war however if that suits them. There is just one catch, if you'd rather have war, you'd better get around to winning it. Also, you lose the right to claim victim status. Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel and Israel hasn't bothered either of them since. If the Palestinians want a country, they either have to accept Israel's offer, or get to conquering Israel. Either way, they're the agents of their own fate, and have been from the beginning.

If you want to blame anyone for the Palestinians' status other than the Palestinians, you ought to be pissed at the Jordanians and Egyptians. The West bank and Gaza were their territories up until 1967, and Israel offered them back to them after 1972. Neither country wanted to take on the Palestinians however so they preferred they be kept in their quazi-country status as a means to keep pressure on Israel. As I mentioned earlier, when the PLO got too uppity in Jordan, the King slaughtered them and kicked them out of the country. Where is all of your hand-wringing over the oppression of the Palestinians at the hands of their fellow Muslim Arabs?

[Reivur]

Let's rather not bring in the whole "who owes whom" thing into this discussion. That would only raise the issue whether or not the farmers 'owe' the formerly suppressed population a recompense, since even those that did not actively make their lives worse likely did benefit from apartheid. That is an issue far too complex for an internet forum such as this.

That being said, I specifically replied to two posters who argued that farmers should not just pack up and leave, but also salt/poison the land so no one could use it, hurting the poor the most, even if said poor did not even want their lands. That certainly feels to me to not be 'in their right'.

For all intents and purposes you are correct that it would be wasteful, but at the same time most people aren't exactly fond of letting thieves/invaders benefit from the fruits of their labours. A good portion of these farms have been toiled and had the soil cultivated for literally a decade justs for it to not be barren in the first place. These are long term projects. So in a sense, yes, making that land go bad again after all that work is definitely spiteful, but having it stolen after you handle all the prep work is equally as bullshit.

Its pretty much a more severe version of The Little Red Hen; except this time they come for her bread with a gun (Zimbabwe ) or the law. And she spikes the loaf into the dirt instead and leaves.

I'm not even sure if being the better person and giving everything intact is even a sound idea either because it just encourages them to take the next piece of land.

[Machismo]

Their suffering is largely a result of them not taking the terms. I'm fine with them rejecting the terms in favor of war however if that suits them. There is just one catch, if you'd rather have war, you'd better get around to winning it. Also, you lose the right to claim victim status. Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel and Israel hasn't bothered either of them since. If the Palestinians want a country, they either have to accept Israel's offer, or get to conquering Israel. Either way, their the agents of their own fate, and have been from the beginning.

If you want to blame anyone for the Palestinians' status other than the Palestinians, you ought to be pissed at the Jordanians and Egyptians. The West bank and Gaza were their territories up until 1967, and Israel offered them back to them after 1972. Neither country wanted to take on the Palestinians however so they preferred they be kept in their quazi-country status as a means to keep pressure on Israel. As I mentioned earlier, when the PLO got too uppity in Jordan, the King slaughtered them and kicked them out of the country. Where is all of your hand-wringing over the oppression of the Palestinians at the hands of their fellow Muslim Arabs?

And it is oppression is it not? In the end, youa re justifying oppression, so long as they are the losers of a war... that's fucking despicable.

There are plenty of innocent victims, and yes, that means Israelis, as well. That's like saying Israeli citizens who die due to mortar fire or rockets are also not able to claim victim status... it's bullshit.

I'm going to blame the government that is systematically oppressing the Palestinians, and the last time I checked, that's the Israeli government. Are we going to blame the Nazis or Japanese for how we treated Japanese-Americans in WW2? Nope.

Here's the thing... stop supporting oppression, no matter who is doing it. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Deleted]

Let's say China conquered the US and gave all the land to Chinese people.

If the US finally overthrew China you wouldn't take back the land?

It more like Chinese arrive at the Pacific coast and the English/Dutch arrive at the atlantic coast, and independent of each other wipe out/replace the local native americans and now the Chinese demand that US soil shall be given to peopel who have non European eyes.....

Look up the The rise of the Zulu empire... hint it did not start in South Africa it expaned into South Africa.....

[PC2]

People invested in the US and Canada.

Not really, investment wasn't very high til people were assured property rights and that the government wouldn't arbitrarily confiscate the land without compensation. If you want significant investments you enact property rights and compensation laws.

[JohnBrown1917]

Honestly I'm surprised there isn't any independence movements in the majority white areas of SA.

I would also be surprised if I took what far right nutjob youtubers said at face value.

[Gadion]

Try reading his post.

Hmmm... perhaps I should have asked him that before asking you, but it appears that you were able to make some sort of sense of it, while I couldn't really get the whole meaning.
I'll just ask him instead, since you don't want to provide your interpretation.

Infraction incoming but idc, side against the people who most of the forum identifies with and you'll get the smack. Anywho, I think the Dutch should take back the Boers or even the case made for Boers to come to the states is fine with me (pharmaceutical stocks will skyrocket). Taking the land is the most humane thing to do, driving them into the sea seems like the most just thing to do. The "2 wrongs dont make a right" seems to constantly be expressed when the exploited people get the upper hand. To those saying this will be Zimbabwe 2.0, then let them make that decision and you can thump your chest. I think you're scared that the new South Africa will create a ripple effect.

As above... Your post doesn't make a lot of sense in its whole. Could you please elaborate?

[JohnBrown1917]

Hmmm... perhaps I should have asked him that before asking you, but it appears that you were able to make some sort of sense of it, while I couldn't really get the whole meaning.
I'll just ask him instead, since you don't want to provide your interpretation.


As above... Your post doesn't make a lot of sense in its whole. Could you please elaborate?

Oh, it was his post you did not get, my bad.

I think he was talking about the Dutch taking back the Boers, which, ofcourse, is a terrible idea. And I don't think anybody living here would think that is a good move.
Unless ofcourse SA erupts into a civil war, but I doubt that.

[steristumpie]

What are you even talking about?
Who doesn't want what?

I think he meant we're shit. And he doesn't want us there.

[Trumpcat]

Considering it was white people who stole the land and oppressed the black population in the first place, who else would be "targeted?"

You know the world must turn upside down if we start oppressing people because centuries ago other people of the same race wronged others? Do you feel some sort of satisfaction that people are becoming victims of another violent regime or as I said it's okay because they are white? Would you agree that your kids are punished for something that happened say 200-300 years ago?

[Gadion]

I think he meant we're shit. And he doesn't want us there.

That was actually my original thought, but I should have asked the other guy to make certain what he meant first. There was a possibility he meant something else the other guy was talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, it was his post you did not get, my bad.

I think he was talking about the Dutch taking back the Boers, which, ofcourse, is a terrible idea. And I don't think anybody living here would think that is a good move.
Unless ofcourse SA erupts into a civil war, but I doubt that.

If you're fine with accepting people who flee a war, I can't really argue with that. As far as the situation in the country currently is going, we're not experiencing problems quite of the magnitude that some would have others believe. The majority of the population is actually quite amicable and we get along quite well. I do have to warn you that some of the political parties in the country aren't quite as trustworthy. All I ask is that people keep an open mind and keep an eye open for any potential abuses of power.

[Deleted]

Just wait until they realize farms actually take work and knowledge to thrive.

Perhaps the Chinese can help.

[Kiri]

For all intents and purposes you are correct that it would be wasteful, but at the same time most people aren't exactly fond of letting thieves/invaders benefit from the fruits of their labours. A good portion of these farms have been toiled and had the soil cultivated for literally a decade justs for it to not be barren in the first place. These are long term projects. So in a sense, yes, making that land go bad again after all that work is definitely spiteful, but having it stolen after you handle all the prep work is equally as bullshit.

Its pretty much a more severe version of The Little Red Hen; except this time they come for her bread with a gun (Zimbabwe ) or the law. And she spikes the loaf into the dirt instead and leaves.

I'm not even sure if being the better person and giving everything intact is even a sound idea either because it just encourages them to take the next piece of land.

On the other hand, the only reason why it was them who were cultivating the land was, well, because the apartheid government explicitly forbade the black population to do so by law, in many cases taking over already cultivated land as well. Which is also one of the reasons why many in the black population lack the skills and know-how to make these things work.
It certainly is a tricky thing. Those who own the farms today should not be punished for the crimes of their forefathers. On the other hand, doing nothing allows them to still benefit from said crimes. It should be resolved through compromise, really. That's why there had been the 'willing buyer, willing seller' program, but that has so far not worked out. On one side, the government did not allocate enough money to it, on the other, many farmers inflated the worth of their farms. Unwillingness to budge in an issue like this often leads to more radical approaches, which is a shame. The goal to return a third of the land, which is primarily owned by a small minority, to the majority makes sense on many levels. But outright destroying the farmland is just as bad as taking it by force, in my opinion.

[Hilhen7]

That's why there had been the 'willing buyer, willing seller' program, but that has so far not worked out. On one side, the government did not allocate enough money to it, on the other, many farmers inflated the worth of their farms. Unwillingness to budge in an issue like this often leads to more radical approaches, which is a shame. The goal to return a third of the land, which is primarily owned by a small minority, to the majority makes sense on many levels. But outright destroying the farmland is just as bad as taking it by force, in my opinion.

They should find out what the owner paid for the land and then add some sort of fair mark up percentage plus cost of improvements made. Also a small ownership interest could be exchanged for training and knowledge so the new owners can operate the farms.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I’m not sure why any one should care. A group of people move in oppress the locals then pass on the gains and we’re suppose to be up in arms when the locals try and take there stuff back? I mean I get that people want to make it about race but who cares if a thief has to return what they stole. And ya the people living there now didn’t steal the land but having your parents steal some thing then give it to you doesn’t make it any less stolen.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

And it is oppression is it not? In the end, youa re justifying oppression, so long as they are the losers of a war... that's fucking despicable.

There are plenty of innocent victims, and yes, that means Israelis, as well. That's like saying Israeli citizens who die due to mortar fire or rockets are also not able to claim victim status... it's bullshit.

I'm going to blame the government that is systematically oppressing the Palestinians, and the last time I checked, that's the Israeli government. Are we going to blame the Nazis or Japanese for how we treated Japanese-Americans in WW2? Nope.

Here's the thing... stop supporting oppression, no matter who is doing it. It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.

You’re grasping at straws and bringing up irrelevancies. The Arabs have wanted the Jews out of Israel ever since the start arriving in numbers and buying land in the 1890s. They started raiding Jewish settlements and farms and the Ottomans wouldn’t protect them. The Jews started protecting themselves, and over a long series of events gained the upper hand. Palestine and Israel declared statehood on the same day in 1948, and the Palestinians, with the backing of the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq attacked, somehow lost, and Israel gained territory. They tried again in 1967, lost even bigger, and Israel grew again. They tried again in 1972, caught the Israelis sleeping, almost won, but just as the tide was turning against them and Israel was advancing, the US intervened and convinced the Israelis and Egyptians to sign a peace treaty if Israel gave up the Sinai, which they did.

Everything since then has been the Palestinians refusing to accept they’ve lost and estblishing a state on the land they have left because they’d rather not have a state than recognize Israel. This would be like Mexico refusing to accept the US borders because they’re still sore about losing the Mexican-American war. Sure, there are annoying malcontents who bitch about it, but they’re not making government policy. Not so with the Palestinians. Israel isn’t oppressing them, they’re just trying to keep them and their rockets out of Israel.

I know this is tough for you to grasp because you desperately need this to be a white colonizers vs poor brown indigenous people issue. You can relax though, Israel is pretty damn brown on its own. You can keep hating white people and all things western without giving a damn about the Israelis. They’re a Simetic people speaking a Simetic language and practicing a Simetic religion. They have some significant European blood, but so do the Lebanese, Syrians and , gasp, Palestinians, so that’s a wash.

[Techno-Druid]

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sou...blf-president/

anything else?

Quite a lot actually, considering you just posted a video of a random guy being racist. Upon further research this guy (Andile Mngxitama) is the president of the Black First Land First organization which are basically black supremacist, communists.

As terrible as that is however, I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread or the original source. Care to try and post something on topic?

[Machismo]

You’re grasping at straws and bringing up irrelevancies. The Arabs have wanted the Jews out of Israel ever since the start arriving in numbers and buying land in the 1890s. They started raiding Jewish settlements and farms and the Ottomans wouldn’t protect them. The Jews started protecting themselves, and over a long series of events gained the upper hand. Palestine and Israel declared statehood on the same day in 1948, and the Palestinians, with the backing of the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq attacked, somehow lost, and Israel gained territory. They tried again in 1967, lost even bigger, and Israel grew again. They tried again in 1972, caught the Israelis sleeping, almost won, but just as the tide was turning against them and Israel was advancing, the US intervened and convinced the Israelis and Egyptians to sign a peace treaty if Israel gave up the Sinai, which they did.

Everything since then has been the Palestinians refusing to accept they’ve lost and estblishing a state on the land they have left because they’d rather not have a state than recognize Israel. This would be like Mexico refusing to accept the US borders because they’re still sore about losing the Mexican-American war. Sure, there are annoying malcontents who bitch about it, but they’re not making government policy. Not so with the Palestinians. Israel isn’t oppressing them, they’re just trying to keep them and their rockets out of Israel.

I know this is tough for you to grasp because you desperately need this to be a white colonizers vs poor brown indigenous people issue. You can relax though, Israel is pretty damn brown on its own. You can keep hating white people and all things western without giving a damn about the Israelis. They’re a Simetic people speaking a Simetic language and practicing a Simetic religion. They have some significant European blood, but so do the Lebanese, Syrians and , gasp, Palestinians, so that’s a wash.

I'm literally pointing to the systematic oppression of an indigenous population, it's not irrelevant at all. You trying to justify that oppression is only helping me to make my point. At the end of the day, that is what is going on, whether you find such oppression to be irrelevant, or not.

I don't "need" it to be anything, I'm saying it IS systematic oppression. Once again, that's not anything you can actually refute, all you are doing, is attempting to justify that oppression. Here's a thought, stop justifying oppression.