[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Demolitia]

Essentially the government's hands are tied by the referendum vote and as a result there is/was no way they could be seen to support this case going ahead. I suspect that the Supreme Court challenge was little more than going through the motions and that they knew it was bound to fail. I, also, would not be surprised if many members of the government are secretly very happy at this morning's judgement.

Yet here we are, facing the wall and desperately looking for a way out of the mess. Everyone is going to lose, due to political games, utter cowardice and stubbornness. Thanks, Great Britain.

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asking the current UK government anything is pointless if the answer is not something they agree with, today makes that perfectly clear

Not today, the last two years. If not longer but I never really looked at it before that.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Not today, the last two years. If not longer but I never really looked at it before that.

good point

[Pann]

Yet here we are, facing the wall and desperately looking for a way out of the mess. Everyone is going to lose, due to political games, utter cowardice and stubbornness. Thanks, Great Britain.

I am not sure what you're getting at here. The UK had a vote, you and I might not like the result but you cannot ignore democracy when it doesn't go your way.

[Demolitia]

I am not sure what you're getting at here. The UK had a vote, you and I might not like the result but you cannot ignore democracy when it doesn't go your way.

I am frustrated by the decision but respect it. I find it however amusing that you say this on the day PM May decides to cancel/postpone the "meaningful" vote because it doesn't go her way.
You have been rather precise in all your posts, fighting for fairness, and pushing people to be accurate in their comments, which I respect. UK politics have been the exact opposite of what you stand for, however, and beyond our frustration at seeing you leave for no good reason, we are mostly making fun of the absurdity of your national politics. Not saying ours are perfect, but under the circumstance, nothing about the implementation past the brexit vote has made any sense.
If you want to leave, go, but your government and houses still don't seem to agree on what this means, 2 years later.

[Veggie50]

I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.

[Demolitia]

I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.

Maybe a slap in the face and reality check are necessary. The UK won't get nearly as good a deal if it has to re-apply as it has now. Looking forward to the Euro ?

[Pann]

I am frustrated by the decision but respect it. I find it however amusing that you say this on the day PM May decides to cancel/postpone the "meaningful" vote because it doesn't go her way.
You have been rather precise in all your posts, fighting for fairness, and pushing people to be accurate in their comments, which I respect. UK politics have been the exact opposite of what you stand for, however, and beyond our frustration at seeing you leave for no good reason, we are mostly making fun of the absurdity of your national politics. Not saying ours are perfect, but under the circumstance, nothing about the implementation past the brexit vote has made any sense.
If you want to leave, go, but your government and houses still don't seem to agree on what this means, 2 years later.

That's a fair comment, she has not come out of this well at all. However whilst I think the vote should go ahead as planned I don't see any way through the impasse at the moment and perhaps trying to get some reassurances from EU leaders is the best way to go. But really I dunno.

Again, that's a fair comment overall UK politicians have painted themselves in a very poor light over the last few years. Although I am being pedantic I disagree that the UK is leaving for no good reason, I think that 17.4million votes is a good reason, despite the fact that I disagree with it, and one that must be respected. With that said I believe that democracy is an ever evolving process and I do not subscribe to the theory that one result is set in stone and that we are not allowed to change our minds. However there are significant stumbling blocks blocking the path to another referendum (although this morning's judgement may have removed one or two) one of which is, my pet hate, the attitude of some of my fellow remainers who seem to believe that the way they voted somehow makes them superior.

That's fair enough making fun of our national politics believe me the same is going on in the UK but I would say that certain people in this thread don't know where to draw the line.

All I can say on no-one agreeing how to leave is that it is extremely complex and I have... no answers.

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I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.

That's all well and good but how do you preserve the Good Friday Agreement with a hard Brexit?

[Demolitia]

That's a fair comment, she has not come out of this well at all. However whilst I think the vote should go ahead as planned I don't see any way through the impasse at the moment and perhaps trying to get some reassurances from EU leaders is the best way to go. But really I dunno.

Again, that's a fair comment overall UK politicians have painted themselves in a very poor light over the last few years. Although I am being pedantic I disagree that the UK is leaving for no good reason, I think that 17.4million votes is a good reason, despite the fact that I disagree with it, and one that must be respected. With that said I believe that democracy is an ever evolving process and I do not subscribe to the theory that one result is set in stone and that we are not allowed to change our minds. However there are significant stumbling blocks blocking the path to another referendum (although this morning's judgement may have removed one or two) one of which is, my pet hate, the attitude of some of my fellow remainers who seem to believe that the way they voted somehow makes them superior.

That's fair enough making fun of our national politics believe me the same is going on in the UK but I would say that certain people in this thread don't know where to draw the line.

All I can say on no-one agreeing how to leave is that it is extremely complex and I have... no answers.

It has taken 2 years to get reassurances as far as the EU can stretch them.
If you want to respect the vote and get on with it, that's fine. But from the beginning the EU has been straightforward, has given you one point of contact, Barnier, and has made it clear what the red lines were, and stuck to them. All member states have stood behind it, always.
The EU has switftly produced coherent legal document all the way through the process, while the UK has been indecisive. Even the "legal advice" hinted at last week is a joke.
I understand it's not a popular decision, and it's complex, and it's political suicide, but that's only our business up to a point.
The turnover in May's administration and the division in you parliament, frankly, looks like Trump-grade madness from this side of the pond. Except it's extremely annoying because it affects us too. The worst part in this whole shit is that whisky prices might rise and you sure as hell make extremely pretty and interesting ones. Your beer is boring though.

[Kronik85]

That's all well and good but how do you preserve the Good Friday Agreement with a hard Brexit?

If we consider the idea that rather than going straight into sectarian violence but instead there being a push for Irish unification then May's deal, hard Brexit and no deal are all functionally the same as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. This is why the DUP no longer care about a Corbyn led government, all results cause the end of The Union and the beginnings of unification.

[Pann]

It has taken 2 years to get reassurances as far as the EU can stretch them.
If you want to respect the vote and get on with it, that's fine. But from the beginning the EU has been straightforward, has given you one point of contact, Barnier, and has made it clear what the red lines were, and stuck to them. All member states have stood behind it, always.
The EU has switftly produced coherent legal document all the way through the process, while the UK has been indecisive. Even the "legal advice" hinted at last week is a joke.
I understand it's not a popular decision, and it's complex, and it's political suicide, but that's only our business up to a point.
The turnover in May's administration and the division in you parliament, frankly, looks like Trump-grade madness from this side of the pond. Except it's extremely annoying because it affects us too. The worst part in this whole shit is that whisky prices might rise and you sure as hell make extremely pretty and interesting ones. Your beer is boring though.

The problem is that the reassurances aren't good enough. There appears to be a breakdown of trust between the UK and EU but most importantly they don't trust May when she says the backstop will not be used. But as I said I don't know where we go from here.

I don't think that the EU is better prepared is open to debate.

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If we consider the idea that rather than going straight into sectarian violence but instead there being a push for Irish unification then May's deal, hard Brexit and no deal are all functionally the same as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. This is why the DUP no longer care about a Corbyn led government, all results cause the end of The Union and the beginnings of unification.

The DUP is out for itself. However they, like the Tories, have painted themselves into a corner and are trying to save face. The proposed deal is widely favoured by NI businesses and the more moderate unionists whilst anything that separates NI from GB is unpopular with hardened unionists. I really would not count on the DUP not caring about Corbyn, his support for Sinn Fein is not something people like Foster will easily forget.

[Demolitia]

The problem is that the reassurances aren't good enough. There appears to be a breakdown of trust between the UK and EU but most importantly they don't trust May when she says the backstop will not be used. But as I said I don't know where we go from here.

I don't think that the EU is better prepared is open to debate.

That's kind of the point of the backstop though. It's a bit weird to have a backup plan and then ask for guarantees it will never be used. What then?
The EU never asked for any of this. Its plan is to have legal guarantees for a status quo until someone comes out with a better plan.
If the UK straight out said it was not interested in a transition and a deal, then so be it. But the UK's position, if there is one, is to have access to the single market with no obligation or supervision. That won't fly from an EU perspective.

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edit:Nobody is prepared for a no deal. That's why the EU wants the backstop. I mean we can get customs staff, and stack up Cadbury cream eggs an canned tomato and beans on the continent, but nobody knows how the shitstorm will play out.
Hell, there is still no clarity for UK nationals in EU institutions. The EU budget parliament vote was scheduled on Wednesday, after your vote, but you messed this one up too.

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The DUP is out for itself. However they, like the Tories, have painted themselves into a corner and are trying to save face. The proposed deal is widely favoured by NI businesses and the more moderate unionists whilst anything that separates NI from GB is unpopular with hardened unionists. I really would not count on the DUP not caring about Corbyn, his support for Sinn Fein is not something people like Foster will easily forget.

2bn that could have been spent on the NHS ...

[Veggie50]

Maybe a slap in the face and reality check are necessary. The UK won't get nearly as good a deal if it has to re-apply as it has now. Looking forward to the Euro ?

Considering I’m Dutch I look forward to as many euros as you’re willing to give me

No, the UK will indeed forfeit their claim to those privileges, but for my side of the isle thats a good thing, and it’ll still be a net gain over being outside the EU.

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That's a fair comment, she has not come out of this well at all. However whilst I think the vote should go ahead as planned I don't see any way through the impasse at the moment and perhaps trying to get some reassurances from EU leaders is the best way to go. But really I dunno.

Again, that's a fair comment overall UK politicians have painted themselves in a very poor light over the last few years. Although I am being pedantic I disagree that the UK is leaving for no good reason, I think that 17.4million votes is a good reason, despite the fact that I disagree with it, and one that must be respected. With that said I believe that democracy is an ever evolving process and I do not subscribe to the theory that one result is set in stone and that we are not allowed to change our minds. However there are significant stumbling blocks blocking the path to another referendum (although this morning's judgement may have removed one or two) one of which is, my pet hate, the attitude of some of my fellow remainers who seem to believe that the way they voted somehow makes them superior.

That's fair enough making fun of our national politics believe me the same is going on in the UK but I would say that certain people in this thread don't know where to draw the line.

All I can say on no-one agreeing how to leave is that it is extremely complex and I have... no answers.

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That's all well and good but how do you preserve the Good Friday Agreement with a hard Brexit?

To be fair, there ARE ways to preserve it by unilateral actions of the UK. Just none the UK would like. The biggest problem would be treating northern ireland differently from the rest of the uk. Thats undesirable, not impossible.

[Crispin]

[Pann]

That's kind of the point of the backstop though. It's a bit weird to have a backup plan and then ask for guarantees it will never be used. What then?
The EU never asked for any of this. Its plan is to have legal guarantees for a status quo until someone comes out with a better plan.
If the UK straight out said it was not interested in a transition and a deal, then so be it. But the UK's position, if there is one, is to have access to the single market with no obligation or supervision. That won't fly from an EU perspective.

I agree. Don't get me wrong there are MPs who are using the backstop for their own ends but there is a concern that the backstop will be used as a bargaining chip in future negotiations and should such a situation arise the UK wants an out. Whether this is a legitimate concern or a result of being outmanoeuvred at every turn is not for me to say.

As I said I have no idea how to proceed, no matter what happens there are those who will use the backstop as a stick to beat May with and if she finds a solution they'll pick up the next stick and then there are those who will not accept anything the EU says or does.

I assume the reasoning for her delaying the vote tomorrow is so she can talk to EU leaders and then tell parliament she has tried her best to get what they want but it is this deal or nothing. It will then be up to MPs to decide to put up (mount a challenge, come up with a better plan, push for no-deal, 2nd ref, etc) or shut up.

I suggest you sit back and enjoy the ride... it's gonna be a rough one!

[Dizzeeyooo]

there is a concern that the backstop will be used as a bargaining chip in future negotiations and should such a situation arise the UK wants an out

do you understand what a backstop is?

if you were buying house insurance, and the insurer tried to insert a line in your contract that read "in the event of any situation occurring where we would need to pay you, we reserve the unilateral right to refuse to pay you" - how keen would you be to agree to that insurance?

I know you wont reply to me, because you probably don't actually understand what a backstop is and think that giving me the chance to educate you would "make me seem superior", but ah well

[Demolitia]

Considering I’m Dutch I look forward to as many euros as you’re willing to give me

No, the UK will indeed forfeit their claim to those privileges, but for my side of the isle thats a good thing, and it’ll still be a net gain over being outside the EU.

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To be fair, there ARE ways to preserve it by unilateral actions of the UK. Just none the UK would like. The biggest problem would be treating northern ireland differently from the rest of the uk. Thats undesirable, not impossible.

So is my wife.
As a historically maritime trading nation, you can imagine any hindrance with your main partner will suck, big time. While Rotterdam is about to receive massive EU funding to increase the capacity of the Port of Rotterdam, this is going to be a nightmare to handle, logistically.

Well there are two ways. The UK accepts some sort of border, which it won't, or it breaks down its constitution (which it won't) to cede NI to the RoI, who can't foot the bill for the goldsink it is.

[Pann]

2bn that could have been spent on the NHS ...

It was £1bn and to be honest I don't think £1bn invested in NI is badly spent. And to put it in perspective £1bn is what is spent on the NHS roughly every 3 days.

[Kronik85]

The DUP is out for itself. However they, like the Tories, have painted themselves into a corner and are trying to save face. The proposed deal is widely favoured by NI businesses and the more moderate unionists whilst anything that separates NI from GB is unpopular with hardened unionists. I really would not count on the DUP not caring about Corbyn, his support for Sinn Fein is not something people like Foster will easily forget.

Just regarding the bolded portion here, this is straight outta the DUP's mouth today, see the latest 15 mins of Channel 4 news for the interview. However like you're saying, they have become the party of grand standing so yes, I would take everything they say with a pinch of salt.

In saying this though, the DUP may well be coming round to the notion that they can only get what they want via Labour, be it this incredibly vague Customs Union or a straight up rejection of Brexit.

[Pann]

Lord Buckethead is a wise man/space lord type thing.

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Just regarding the bolded portion here, this is straight outta the DUP's mouth today, see the latest 15 mins of Channel 4 news for the interview. However like you're saying, they have become the party of grand standing so yes, I would take everything they say with a pinch of salt.

In saying this though, the DUP may well be coming round to the notion that they can only get what they want via Labour, be it this incredibly vague Customs Union or a straight up rejection of Brexit.

The DUP is saying what it thinks will benefit the DUP the most. At the moment it is trying to put pressure on May. It might back Labour to topple May but I really wouldn't put money on them backing Corbyn's path to No. 10.

The DUP want Brexit and would quite like a border between NI and ROI, I really would not be surprised if they are hoping to cause as much disruption as possible in order to run the clock down.

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To be fair, there ARE ways to preserve it by unilateral actions of the UK. Just none the UK would like. The biggest problem would be treating northern ireland differently from the rest of the uk. Thats undesirable, not impossible.

Which would go against the spirit of the GFA.

[Demolitia]

I agree. Don't get me wrong there are MPs who are using the backstop for their own ends but there is a concern that the backstop will be used as a bargaining chip in future negotiations and should such a situation arise the UK wants an out. Whether this is a legitimate concern or a result of being outmanoeuvred at every turn is not for me to say.

As I said I have no idea how to proceed, no matter what happens there are those who will use the backstop as a stick to beat May with and if she finds a solution they'll pick up the next stick and then there are those who will not accept anything the EU says or does.

I assume the reasoning for her delaying the vote tomorrow is so she can talk to EU leaders and then tell parliament she has tried her best to get what they want but it is this deal or nothing. It will then be up to MPs to decide to put up (mount a challenge, come up with a better plan, push for no-deal, 2nd ref, etc) or shut up.

I suggest you sit back and enjoy the ride... it's gonna be a rough one!

I understand you perspective. I only ask that, in the same way you expect us to respect your democratic decision, you respect that of 27 other member states. We don't want this crap. We tried to accommodate your wishes. We don't want violence in Ireland. We don't want Brits here to suffer or EU nationals in the UK to suffer.
You asked for this , but you seem to agree with us at least on those topics. We have no solution, so until you come up with one, please understand that things will stay as they are, and we need guarantees set in stone that it will stay this way, because, frankly, we don't trust you to stick to your word 20 years down the line.

What scares me actually is that Norway doesn't seem to be willing to accept you into EFTA. I understand their point, but I frankly didn't see that one coming.