Blizzard DID listen.

[arkanon]

Warning - opinions incoming. LeTs JuSt JuMp InTo It

It seems to me to be very, very obvious that wow is in an extremely bad state right now. For me personally, its the worst it has ever been, and thats saying something. After just a few minutes on the forums, there seems to be something else thats obvious: a generally accepted idea that Blizzard did not and is not listening. But what if we are wrong?

What if Blizzard are completely stumped and confused as to why the game is in decline. What if Blizzard think they have given us exactly what we wanted? what if they HAVE given us exactly what "we" wanted?

It wasnt that long ago that Raiding was the only way to obtain serious gear in a timely manor. Over the years a couple of systems were added to allow the "farming" of gear - badges obtained from heroics rewarding raid level gear in late BC for example. But the community asked for more. More ways to get gear.
Some of the community cried fowl that it was not "fair" that they should be FORCED to do hardcore raiding to get good gear.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - what about pvp? Why should players be "FORCED" to pve for the best gear? Welfare epics were born, and pvp became a serious and often optimal gearing method.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about solo progression? Why should players be "FORCED" to do group content just to obtain gear? Rep gear, world quests, artifact weapons / neck.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about when i have all the bis gear? Why should players be "FORCED" to repeat content with no chance for upgrades? Warforging / Titanforging were added.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - Sure, reducing raid size to 10man helped, but what if i dont want to raid for hours per week? Why should players be "FORCED" to complete long 8+ minute boss fights with a dedicated group of 10-20 players just do obtain great loot? Mythic plus became the preferred gearing method for many, to the point where many guides specifically talk about m+ builds rather than raid builds.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What happened to the faction war? its world of WARcraft. Why am i being "FORCED" to play as a pacifist just because of server imbalance and no world pvp - why are we fighting all these other threats? what happened to the war? Warmode was added to the expac based entirely on the faction war.

Blizzard listened.

We want more races! - Why should we be "FORCED" to play the same old races - add more! More are added, and then locked behind rep grinds (although not the worst grinds, they exist)

Blizzard listened.


So what happened? Did they not give a portion of the player-base exactly what they wanted?

Did Blizzard listen to the "wrong" feedback, the "wrong" players, the "wrong" part of the community? Or, did 'we' get exactly what we wanted, but we didnt want what we thought we wanted?

But thats just my thoughts on the matter, i would love to know your opinion in the comments down below.

[Brocksley]

So when everyone complained about AP grind on artifacts, but liked everything else like skins and ability trees, why did they get rid of everything else and keep the AP grind? They don't listen to us on big issues, they have their own ideas and stick to them no matter what. You are giving players way too much credit for these changes.

[Schattenlied]

Just because they "listened" doesn't mean they executed the ideas well... Many of these ideas are pretty good, Blizzard, however, implemented them horribly.

It wasnt that long ago that Raiding was the only way to obtain serious gear in a timely manor. Over the years a couple of systems were added to allow the "farming" of gear - badges obtained from heroics rewarding raid level gear in late BC for example. But the community asked for more. More ways to get gear.
Some of the community cried fowl that it was not "fair" that they should be FORCED to do hardcore raiding to get good gear.

Blizzard listened.

Good idea, however, PvE gear should not be just as good (if not better) for PvP as PvP gear, and PvP gear should not be just as good in PvE as PvE gear.

Some of the community were still unhappy - what about pvp? Why should players be "FORCED" to pve for the best gear? Welfare epics were born, and pvp became a serious and often optimal gearing method.

Blizzard listened.

See above.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about solo progression? Why should players be "FORCED" to do group content just to obtain gear? Rep gear, world quests, artifact weapons / neck.

Blizzard listened.

Rep epics have been around since TBC though? World quests just drop the same Ilvl as heroic 5 mans and the AP grind was implemented horribly as a neverending treadmill.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about when i have all the bis gear? Why should players be "FORCED" to repeat content with no chance for upgrades? Warforging / Titanforging were added.

Blizzard listened.

No one was forcing them to do anything, and I never once saw anyone making this complaint.

Some of the community were still unhappy - Sure, reducing raid size to 10man helped, but what if i dont want to raid for hours per week? Why should players be "FORCED" to complete long 8+ minute boss fights with a dedicated group of 10-20 players just do obtain great loot? Mythic plus became the preferred gearing method for many, to the point where many guides specifically talk about m+ builds rather than raid builds.

Blizzard listened.

And didn;t balance mythic+ dungeons properly, nor design classes properly for it, which resulted in many classes being extremely unwanted.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What happened to the faction war? its world of WARcraft. Why am i being "FORCED" to play as a pacifist just because of server imbalance and no world pvp - why are we fighting all these other threats? what happened to the war? Warmode was added to the expac based entirely on the faction war.

Blizzard listened.

People would have been more fine with it if the story of how the war started wasn't awful... And if Blizzard balanced the shards properly.

We want more races! - Why should we be "FORCED" to play the same old races - add more! More are added, and then locked behind rep grinds (although not the worst grinds, they exist)

Blizzard listened.

The rep grinds are excessive and stupid, the races should be available from level 1 with no rep requirement like Draenei and Blood Elves were in TBC, like Goblins and Worgen were in Cata, like Pandaren were in MoP.

[Justpassing]

Cats listen to you too, they just don't care.

[klepp0906]

Warning - opinions incoming. LeTs JuSt JuMp InTo It

It seems to me to be very, very obvious that wow is in an extremely bad state right now. For me personally, its the worst it has ever been, and thats saying something. After just a few minutes on the forums, there seems to be something else thats obvious: a generally accepted idea that Blizzard did not and is not listening. But what if we are wrong?

What if Blizzard are completely stumped and confused as to why the game is in decline. What if Blizzard think they have given us exactly what we wanted? what if they HAVE given us exactly what "we" wanted?

It wasnt that long ago that Raiding was the only way to obtain serious gear in a timely manor. Over the years a couple of systems were added to allow the "farming" of gear - badges obtained from heroics rewarding raid level gear in late BC for example. But the community asked for more. More ways to get gear.
Some of the community cried fowl that it was not "fair" that they should be FORCED to do hardcore raiding to get good gear.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - what about pvp? Why should players be "FORCED" to pve for the best gear? Welfare epics were born, and pvp became a serious and often optimal gearing method.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about solo progression? Why should players be "FORCED" to do group content just to obtain gear? Rep gear, world quests, artifact weapons / neck.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What about when i have all the bis gear? Why should players be "FORCED" to repeat content with no chance for upgrades? Warforging / Titanforging were added.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - Sure, reducing raid size to 10man helped, but what if i dont want to raid for hours per week? Why should players be "FORCED" to complete long 8+ minute boss fights with a dedicated group of 10-20 players just do obtain great loot? Mythic plus became the preferred gearing method for many, to the point where many guides specifically talk about m+ builds rather than raid builds.

Blizzard listened.

Some of the community were still unhappy - What happened to the faction war? its world of WARcraft. Why am i being "FORCED" to play as a pacifist just because of server imbalance and no world pvp - why are we fighting all these other threats? what happened to the war? Warmode was added to the expac based entirely on the faction war.

Blizzard listened.

We want more races! - Why should we be "FORCED" to play the same old races - add more! More are added, and then locked behind rep grinds (although not the worst grinds, they exist)

Blizzard listened.


So what happened? Did they not give a portion of the player-base exactly what they wanted?

Did Blizzard listen to the "wrong" feedback, the "wrong" players, the "wrong" part of the community? Or, did 'we' get exactly what we wanted, but we didnt want what we thought we wanted?

But thats just my thoughts on the matter, i would love to know your opinion in the comments down below.

youre exactly right.

except the plebs outnumber the people who play their mmorpg of choice passionately. blizzard is a business. While the distaste spreads much further and wider than ever... its still the minority. Theyre still making millions A WEEK.

[MasterHamster]

Blizzard listened a lot to feedback during MoP, that gave us WoD. Remember when everything was "mandatory"? How non-raid content should be optional and rewards cosmetic? Yeah, worked out great didn't it?!
Blizzard listened a lot to the feedback of Legion (when they tried to go back to what was once tried and true), and we got BFA.

Players will ask for Blizzard to remove all the things that are "boring" and when there's little of that left, they can't figure out why they're still bored.
Ah, you hated feeling "forced" to max your artifact? Well, we still need a system that keeps you having something to power up, so here's Azerite! Look! It doesn't punish you for changing specs! Look, it doesn't make you do a certain dungeon a thousand times! Look, it doesn't have any dull percentage mini-traits!
Oh, what do you mean it's not fun to unlock the same traits over and over?"

"Oh, it isn't fun to be 'forced' to run LFR because you're unlucky with tier drops? Well we dislike designing tier set bonuses, we've tried to phase them out since WoD you see... so now they're on the HoA!"

"Oh, you don't enjoy legendary items or any other 'mandatory' item? Fine, they're gone now. Try to find something worth repeating world content for."

"Professions take too long to get good at? We agree, everyone should be equally good. Ah, and those pesky profession perks? Can't have those or people might be forced to level them "


In the end, it's the players that have been telling Blizzard that instant gratification is the way forward. Of course, Blizzard are the one's who still have to at least attempt to give us things that keeps us occupied, but since nothing outside of raids is allowed to take more than 30 minutes, that is of course a very tall order.

"We want fun, interactive, varied, rewarding, non-repetitive, non-grindy, easy and accessible non-mandatory content that lasts for months!!!!"

[Weeps]

Just because they "listened" doesn't mean they executed the ideas well... Many of these ideas are pretty good, Blizzard, however, implemented them horribly.

Exactly.

When players asked for badge system... what they did was beyond stupid AF

[roboscorcher]

None of the fixes you mentioned are why BfA sucks. It sucks because the class design and gear progression is a shell of Legion's.

[arkanon]

Blizzard listened a lot to feedback during MoP, that gave us WoD. Remember when everything was "mandatory"? How non-raid content should be optional and rewards cosmetic? Yeah, worked out great didn't it?!
Blizzard listened a lot to the feedback of Legion (when they tried to go back to what was once tried and true), and we got BFA.

Players will ask for Blizzard to remove all the things that are "boring" and when there's little of that left, they can't figure out why they're still bored.
Ah, you hated feeling "forced" to max your artifact? Well, we still need a system that keeps you having something to power up, so here's Azerite! Look! It doesn't punish you for changing specs! Look, it doesn't make you do a certain dungeon a thousand times! Look, it doesn't have any dull percentage mini-traits!
Oh, what do you mean it's not fun to unlock the same traits over and over?"

"Oh, it isn't fun to be 'forced' to run LFR because you're unlucky with tier drops? Well we dislike designing tier set bonuses, we've tried to phase them out since WoD you see... so now they're on the HoA!"

"Oh, you don't enjoy legendary items or any other 'mandatory' item? Fine, they're gone now. Try to find something worth repeating world content for."

"Professions take too long to get good at? We agree, everyone should be equally good. Ah, and those pesky profession perks? Can't have those or people might be forced to level them "


In the end, it's the players that have been telling Blizzard that instant gratification is the way forward. Of course, Blizzard are the one's who still have to at least attempt to give us things that keeps us occupied, but since nothing outside of raids is allowed to take more than 30 minutes, that is of course a very tall order.

"We want fun, interactive, varied, rewarding, non-repetitive, non-grindy, easy and accessible non-mandatory content that lasts for months!!!!"

I can agree with most of this. I remember SOMEONE from Blizzard saying what players want is often not what is best for the game / them. Not quite "you think you do, but you dont" but basically the same. I dont remember the exact quote, but yes.

- - - Updated - - -

None of the fixes you mentioned are why BfA sucks. It sucks because the class design and gear progression is a shell of Legion's.

Most of the post is about gear progression, but thanks for your opinion.

[unbound]

Blizz did indeed listen...and did simplistic (and stupid) things to resolve the concerns.

Why half-*** something when you can fully *** it instead...

[sochiee]

People always complain about "lack of progression" in the first tier.

You expect to get every single thing handed to you with a fully fleshed out system in the first tier? Rofl.

[chrisnumbers]

Just because they "listened" doesn't mean they executed the ideas well... Many of these ideas are pretty good, Blizzard, however, implemented them horribly.

Blizz did indeed listen...and did simplistic (and stupid) things to resolve the concerns.

Why half-*** something when you can fully *** it instead...

So if the games sucks, it's because they didn't listen. But if they do listen and the game still sucks, it's because they did it wrong.
Can't please everyone.

[Pillerina]

youre exactly right.

except the plebs outnumber the people who play their mmorpg of choice passionately. blizzard is a business. While the distaste spreads much further and wider than ever... its still the minority. Theyre still making millions A WEEK.

Thing about the plebs though, is that they seem to be happy with whatever arbitrary cosmetic rewards they can get, as long as you make cool mounts and transmog there was never any reason to listen to them.

[Schattenlied]

So if the games sucks, it's because they didn't listen. But if they do listen and the game still sucks, it's because they did it wrong.
Can't please everyone.

Especially when you half ass the implementation of otherwise good ideas.

[Deleted]

I love how easy it is to please the last remaining player base. They can give you world quest of you picking shit in On Goro crater from different dinosaurs and would probably be content with the patch.

I don't think any of your points address any of the issues people have with the game. Good job?

[roboscorcher]

Most of the post is about gear progression, but thanks for your opinion.

Sorry, gear design. It's NOT the acquisition methods that suck right now. It's the gear itself.

Artifact weapons were a lot of fun to level up. There was a tangible sense of power increases. Then there were Legiondaries that also were useful for all of Legion.

Azerite gear, in contrast, is disposable. They clog up our bags when we level. New gear rarely feels like an upgrade. And they lack all the visuals and lore of the Artifacts.

No one quit because 10mans exist. They quit because the rewards are boring. Our characters feel less powerful than Legion, and the gear that is meant to fill the holes, doesn't.

[Akibaboy]

Your assessment is true in many cases, and there are other factors in others.

1) Many, many aspects of the game that were once satisfying, immersive aspects of the game were gutted for the sake of ease and convenience, with the crescendo's peak arriving in and continuing in the Cataclysm era. Leveling and zones was torn to shreds from these spanning, long form stories (seriously, the questing story for Onyxia's overall plot began at level 1) - and they were turned into meme zones for your dose of CSI lulz, Rambo lulz (two zones), Indiana Jones lulz, etc. where the quests and gameplay were wholly trivial, offering zero friction as you Netflix'd your way to max level. That's one facet of the design trend from that era, but seriously the game has continued to strip away actual good game design in favor of making sure everyone everywhere is happy.

2) A few of the issues stem from the balance of development / engagement, and the inherent cost that comes with it. Every company has the bean-counters, no issue there... so when you have dozens of artists, designers, programmers, testers all pouring their time (and the company's money) into a part of the game that no one does, that's an issue. Blizzard numbers guy during Sunwell: "Why is 60% of our team working on content that 2% of the playerbase engages in?" In response to that concern, we got: "all raids are 10-man if you like, the first raid is easy, and we're going to introduce hard mode for those that want challenge." Cool... now 15% of players are doing the content that half the team spends all their time on. Thus, in Cata we get LFR... now Blizzard can justify spending the time making raid content because in some vein it's being used by more players - now over 50% of people are engaging in that content. I think there's a fair amount of systems and features that get left on the wayside or re-purposed because Blizzard finds that people just don't do them. Scenarios were introduced in light of several MMOs trying to do away with the "holy trinity" and Blizzard responded in kind. No one did them after a couple weeks. So in a way, there is an actual incentive for Blizzard to try and make content people find fun because if it's fun, people stick around to do it. Stuff that isn't fun gradually loses its engagement and Blizzard moves away from it.

3) Now - several of BfA's core, hated features are actually answers to things we once requested - Artifact traits are cool but don't matter after a couple weeks, you just click them all and ignore it. Legendaries have cool effects but absolutely suck to acquire. Set bonuses lock me out of significant upgrades because it's a DPS loss to lose the bonus... all of these complaints in Legion led to Azerite Gear - you're still picking traits you like with each upgrade. Legendaries are gone and now you get minor traits on 3 items instead of broken, mandatory ones. Set bonuses are gone so you don't need to jockey gear / upgrade slots... and the response? Give me back my Artifact Weapon, give me back Legendaries, give me back tier sets.

People hated the mission table, farming WQs for resources, doing emissaries... so Blizzard nerfed the mission table to irrelevance, nerfed the WQs rewards to the point where you felt like you didn't need to do them, and made emissary caches equally small (until the recent buff). I could go on.

[Deleted]

People can't ever be content, but that's understandable consider WoW has such a broad audience. I would argue thst no other game can accompany so many different player types and it's imposible to make everyone happy.
Everytime Blizzard satisfies one group, another group gets loud and to the outside it looks like the playerbase is always angry.
Edit: Great post, btw.

[tripleh]

Blizzard only cares when there ass is on the chopping block. Players wanted flying restored. They didn't listen , but instead after massive unsubs they added it back . Only to retaliate by making pathfinder as a requirement. Then having players wait 6+months before you can fly. Stop trying to be a white knight/fan boy, because they don't care. Personally hoping that Activision fires alot of them, Ion,Danuser,Alex, and Lore.

[Logwyn]

The rep grinds are excessive and stupid, the races should be available from level 1 with no rep requirement like Draenei and Blood Elves were in TBC, like Goblins and Worgen were in Cata, like Pandaren were in MoP.

I agree with this. I bought the expansion feature that included new races. I did plan to buy a rep grind to be able to have access to races I thought I was already buying.