Blizzard DID listen.

[SirKickBan]

-SNIP-

The problem isn't that these things exist. It's that they've been done poorly, in some cases, like the disaster that is PvP gearing, or Titanforging, or Warmodes.. Or, that they clash with other systems, like M+ and raiding.

Though, largely, it's because they've been poorly designed or implemented. There is no system currently in WoW that is inherently bad (In my opinion), only systems that are badly made.

[moremana]

Azerite Armor is just set bonuses and boring trinket procs. It's just another form of item progression. It's not character progression. The whole idea of these rental items having core character abilities locked behind them is bullshit and needs to die a horrible death.

It's funny you bring up PvP talents. I'd say a good 75% of those used to be baseline and were taken away to fill another arbitrary PvP progression system. Then with BfA they just give them all to you anyway.

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Who exactly are they catering to in this expansion?

LoL you got me! I have no idea!

[arkanon]

The problem isn't that these things exist. It's that they've been done poorly, in some cases, like the disaster that is PvP gearing, or Titanforging, or Warmodes.. Or, that they clash with other systems, like M+ and raiding.

Though, largely, it's because they've been poorly designed or implemented. There is no system currently in WoW that is inherently bad (In my opinion), only systems that are badly made.

I agree with this. I would prefer to have 2 character progression systems and have them done well, than have multiple tiers and layers, all pretty much doing the same thing, none of them very well at all. I personally really dislike the azerite armor system, and dont really know anyone who does to be honest.

[Gorillaz]

And THIS is the issue. Since they are not part of what YOU do in game, they are irrelevant. What an attitude. Are you not aware that the percentage of players completing M+ and Raiding is smaller than those who dont? Do you not realize there is an entire part of the player-base who think raiding and M+ are a waste of time and therefore, irrelevant?

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How has any of this changed? you continue to dodge that question. When in wows history did your character continue to gain new abilities and talents beyond max level? I would also argue that your use of 75% is the only arbitrary thing. I cant think of many at all that used to be baseline.

When have I ever brought up max level progression? The game was just fine without AP grinds. We functioned for 10 years when normal ass items and stats were the only max level progression.

I have talked about character progression and how it has stopped at level 100. We have gone 20 levels without getting anything.

[Kyriani]

I'm not going to pick apart each item listed but there are times when "Blizzard listens", but their implementation of whatever they were trying to address misses the mark, sometimes spectacularly, so it doesn't feel like they listened at all. Not every time mind you, but sometimes.

[arkanon]

When have I ever brought up max level progression? The game was just fine without AP grinds. We functioned for 10 years when normal ass items and stats were the only max level progression.

I have talked about character progression and how it has stopped at level 100. We have gone 20 levels without getting anything.

Again, not true. In that time, entire specs have been changed completely, adding countless new abilities. Additionally, we had a new CLASS added....so i have no interest in defending BfA at all, but your uneducated 'opinions' are part of the issue.

[saintminya]

Yeah players totally asked for zero new abilities or player progression. We also totally asked for 3 prunes in a row.

Thanks for listening Blizzard!

Players actually did complain about having too many skills/abilities. That is precisely why the pruning started in WoD.

[Gorillaz]

Again, not true. In that time, entire specs have been changed completely, adding countless new abilities. Additionally, we had a new CLASS added....so i have no interest in defending BfA at all, but your uneducated 'opinions' are part of the issue.

Holy hell. What does a new class have to do with Character progression past level 100?

[Irian]

Okay but if you listen to only the people asking for the removal of shit then we get BfA. They picked the path of least resistance; take Legion, remove everything they could until it was just a skeleton of a game, and then release it for full price as an expansion.

Of course they listen to people just saying that they don't like a thing. There's someone who dislikes everything, that doesn't mean it should go away. If you look hard enough you'll find someone who wants to scrap every aspect of the game, Blizzard is the development team and they have the say in who to listen to. BfA has left everyone unhappy so needless to say this isn't on the playerbase.

[arkanon]

Players actually did complain about having too many skills/abilities. That is precisely why the pruning started in WoD.

The issue is players think their opinion is the only opinion. They tend to gravitate towards an echo chamber of like minded people, and dont realise there is a group of people with apposing POV. This happens a LOT on this forum, but is in no way unique to mmo-c. When i explain there was a large group of people asking for the complete removal of the legendary system in legion, others jump in and just cannot believe it. and its the same the other way round.

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Holy hell. What does a new class have to do with Character progression past level 100?

Lol look at you flip flopping back and forward. Its horrible to watch. What are you even trying to say? it changes every post. Just outline exactly what you are trying to say, clearly and without anger, and i will reply. Otherwise i cant be bothered. You are clearly on a second acc, im gonna guess the last one got closed for similar behavior to what you are exhibiting here.

[saintminya]

The issue is players think their opinion is the only opinion. They tend to gravitate towards an echo chamber of like minded people, and dont realise there is a group of people with apposing POV. This happens a LOT on this forum, but is in no way unique to mmo-c. When i explain there was a large group of people asking for the complete removal of the legendary system in legion, others jump in and just cannot believe it. and its the same the other way round.

This is true, these conversations need to extend beyond a group of like-mindedfellows or yes-men. Especially before anyone goes whining to Blizzard.

[Prothynyas]

No they DIDNT !!!

[arkanon]

This is true, these conversations need to extend beyond a group of like-mindedfellows or yes-men. Especially before anyone goes whining to Blizzard.

Absolutely. It seems quite common for each individual poster to assume they speak for everyone - they think the one interest they have in the game is the same as everyone else - for example, there have been times the hardcore arena crowd has been begging for a certain change, that is "breaking" the game for them. They get that change, and all the raiders freak out and ask why blizzard isnt listening.

[Anaphaze]

Every one of your arguments is such a blatant simplification of community problems that this honestly looks like bait. Blizzard is completely out of touch with it's community, and even on the rare occasion they DO listen, they misinterpret the feedback.

[arkanon]

Every one of your arguments is such a blatant simplification of community problems that this honestly looks like bait. Blizzard is completely out of touch with it's community, and even on the rare occasion they DO listen, they misinterpret the feedback.

Feel free to provide any examples you want, instead of a blatant oversimplification of the issue as you see it. YOU see it. The way other people see it, the 'community' is not a single entity, but rather a collection of groups, many of whom have not just differing, but apposing opinions and ideas for the game.

[predasmoke3]

youre exactly right.

except the plebs outnumber the people who play their mmorpg of choice passionately. blizzard is a business. While the distaste spreads much further and wider than ever... its still the minority. They're still making millions A WEEK.

Primarily by designing the game to be addictive, not by making it fun. Yes there is a difference, the charge you feel in your head when you open your m+ box isn't fun, it's what gamblers feel at the machine, it's what junkies feel when they see a needle. The game has no substance nor anything that is conducive to random experiences. It has x amount of chances for fun (loot) a week, and then it resets and you get all charged up all over.

Perhaps the game is still challenging enough to you to warrant your 'passion'. But for the rest of us who have been playing longer than since mop, its a hollow shell of a game I used to love. I'm sorry but if you're defending blizzard and calling this game good, youre the pleb. Get a clue dude.

[tclphz]

I'm not going to pick apart each item listed but there are times when "Blizzard listens", but their implementation of whatever they were trying to address misses the mark, sometimes spectacularly, so it doesn't feel like they listened at all. Not ever time mind you, but sometimes.

Agree with this sentiment.

If we were to think about some of the new things added without considering implementation it would sound neat and would solve some problems. For example, warfronts; many people grew up on the RTS warcraft strategy game and I'd reckon that many would think a strategy minigame in WoW would be fun. And, it would serve as a different gearing route (w/ world boss and quest 370). What ended up coming out was not fun (I think). Or looking at islands, one issue with AP previously was that grinding AP requires M+ or raiding, otherwise you'd run out of sources. Okay, so we add in islands, and there'll be rares that you can do for a shot at transmogs and pets. Again, very boring experience. Though perhaps it wasn't implementation rather, there was no way for these to actually be fun, except perhaps in our mind.

[arkanon]

Agree with this sentiment.

If we were to think about some of the new things added without considering implementation it would sound neat and would solve some problems. For example, warfronts; many people grew up on the RTS warcraft strategy game and I'd reckon that many would think a strategy minigame in WoW would be fun. And, it would serve as a different gearing route (w/ world boss and quest 370). What ended up coming out was not fun (I think). Or looking at islands, one issue with AP previously was that grinding AP requires M+ or raiding, otherwise you'd run out of sources. Okay, so we add in islands, and there'll be rares that you can do for a shot at transmogs and pets. Again, very boring experience. Though perhaps it wasn't implementation rather, there was no way for these to actually be fun, except perhaps in our mind.

I can totally get onboard with this. for me, IE would be a fun little alternative if they scaled from 1-5 players. Even if they removed the AP from it and it was just a grind for random xmog / pets / mounts. i dont HATE IE, but i dont enjoy them.

[Powerogue]

Ultimately I don't think any of those criticisms are relevant to the BFA-specific criticisms, which mainly revolve around the new BFA mechanics like azerite armor, warfronts, and island expeditions.

You're absolutely right that they can't please everyone and their efforts in that department only dis-please new people in a neverending cycle, but that is the typical state of the game in ALL expansions, and does not explain the BFA-specific dip in satisfaction alone.

[rowaasr13]

Ah, you hated feeling "forced" to max your artifact? Well, we still need a system that keeps you having something to power up, so here's Azerite! Look! It doesn't punish you for changing specs!

Uh-huh. We had raid tier piecess which adjusted to spec and now we have azerite pieces that require money to respec and devs are explicitly adamant about removing this cost. Some mighty listening right there! Listening and then taking a dump at players, that is.