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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Bob View Post
    Blizzards biggest problem is that nobody there designing WoW expansions actually plays the game. At least doesn't play the game as a hardcore player would.
    Since hardcore players are such a small minority, how can this be "their biggest problem"?

    Their biggest problem is that huge numbers of players, who have mostly been casual, stopped playing their game over the years. If anything, catering to the hardcores could have CAUSED this problem.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Bob View Post
    Blizzards biggest problem is that nobody there designing WoW expansions actually plays the game. At least doesn't play the game as a hardcore player would. You have feedback all over the place, but someone at Blizzard thought that LFR was a good idea and that Warmode was a good idea. My favorite, removing the Diablo 2 style talent system from WoW in favor of the D3. Obviously those were terrible ideas as anyone who actually plays the game will tell you. Blizzard needs to stop hiring people with psychiatry degrees and needs people who actually plays video games. Specifically MMO's obviously.

    Also, the micro-transactions need to go, specifically the $15 monthly fee. This is what drives players away and what drives developers to make grindy content that gives players a daily lock out. That $15 monthly fee is killing the game, and has been for a long time. This gives devs freedom to explore fun game mechanics instead of mechanics that try to make you waste your time to extract that $15 monthly fee. Blizzard should instead focus on trying to get people to buy expansions as a source of profit, cause I doubt as many people bought BfA compared to Red Dead Redemption 2. Blizzard isn't exactly making AAA game content like God of War or Red Dead Redemption 2 where it takes years. Each WoW expansion is basically a $50 DLC with a lot of reused assets. Make a good game and people will buy it. Make a bad game and you'll call your customers entitled.
    What feedback? My feedback is completely opposite of yours....so how is Blizzard supposed to react?
    And yes, I actually play the game.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Brocksley View Post
    So when everyone complained about AP grind on artifacts, but liked everything else like skins and ability trees, why did they get rid of everything else and keep the AP grind? They don't listen to us on big issues, they have their own ideas and stick to them no matter what. You are giving players way too much credit for these changes.
    The problem is people say they hate it but they just keep doing it anyway. Players are like a girl saying "no please don't rape me" while ferociously sucking your dick. If you hate it DON'T DO IT. Yes, don't get AP, become useless, stop raiding, stop playing, stop paying. That will send the only message they truly understand.

  4. #164
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    The PRICETAG (time spent ingame) on these is the problem. Because every single feature costs us. The cost was not this eye gauging before, now it feels like you are paying the price, the tax and everything with every "new and amazing feature".
    You are being showered in crap, the time to get a USEFUL and WANTED item is maybe slower than ever before. In wotlk you did your daily heroic, got your badges, and you could count the days when you could get your TIER SET PIECE. Today you get epics till you barf, but usually not the pieces you would want.
    It's the same as your standard ARPG - they shower you with loot, but like 95% is vendor fodder. Or DE fodder, in the case of today's WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    Players are like a girl saying "no please don't rape me" while ferociously sucking your dick.
    I had to giggle at this
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  5. #165
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    Victim blaming is never pleasant
    Wrath baby and proud of it

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I don't think they know what they want anymore.
    I wish there was just one dev in leading position with 22k+ achieve points, collecting and willing to participate in everything and he would just come out and say "hey, I think reps are fun, wqs are fun (paragon caches too), islands are fun!" Can anyone imagine this?
    You know, a player don't need to enjoy all content in the game. If you love doing WQs but hate raiding and M+ then that's fine because other players love raiding and M+ but will never do a single WQ.

  7. #167
    Blizzard does listen, the playerbase is simply fickle and has diverse gaming interests and honestly, most of the players who complain simply do not know what the hell they want. One expansion later, players wax nostalgia for features they complained about a few weeks/months earlier.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I don't think they know what they want anymore.
    I wish there was just one dev in leading position with 22k+ achieve points, collecting and willing to participate in everything and he would just come out and say "hey, I think reps are fun, wqs are fun (paragon caches too), islands are fun!" Can anyone imagine this?
    but they arent so why would they say they are?
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  9. #169
    Stood in the Fire Guardian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Since hardcore players are such a small minority, how can this be "their biggest problem"?

    Their biggest problem is that huge numbers of players, who have mostly been casual, stopped playing their game over the years. If anything, catering to the hardcores could have CAUSED this problem.
    Hardcore the minority of what? There's hardly a player base anymore. I get you casuals wanna keep WOW casual, but as you can see that killed the game. When Classic is finally released we can see which is superior, the old hardcore WOW or the modern casual WoW. Time to wake up already.
    Last edited by Guardian Bob; 2018-12-13 at 01:03 PM.

  10. #170
    You're never going to reach a consensus that's why you have to dig deeper and build a game system that satisfies a lot of people but also is solid enough that others will eventually come around.

    BFA is failing at that, specifically with Azerite Armor and generally with lack of content and current class design.

    At some point you have to understand that this is the new wow and it's not going back any time soon.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Many agree that Blizzard shouldn't be there to cater to every whim of the unwashed masses. WOW is THEIR dream, the players are just welcomed guests.
    I spoke about this in a classic thread : i believe Blizzards biggest issue is trying to listen. trying to please people. Games that have been successful recently have gone against the grain - created something different to what everyone else is doing - SP games in a sea of shitty MP games for example. Those designers had a vision, a dream for their game, and they created it. As it turns out, people responded well to that passion and dream, and flocked to those games.

    Taking some risks and doing something new and exciting could double wows subs in a matter of weeks.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh my goodness thats painful to read. You are so wrong it hurts. The best part about your entire post is you AGREE with me on point 1., but your agenda to disagree with me is so strong, you dont even realize you are saying EXACTLY the same thing as me. How do you not realise this? I specifically said it was introduced as an incentive to encourage people to continue playing, even when their gear was approaching their bis, be that normal, heroic, mythic, lfr, m+, heroic dungeons. For the life of me i cannot see how you confused yourself so much with this point....

    I strongly suggest you put all your agendas and preconceived ideas aside, read the post again, then form a conclusion (AFTER reading it calmly) Because you missed the point entirely, and are the only person in this thread so far to do so.
    I am perfectly calm, you are suggesting that the core problem is that 'Blizzard listened to the community' and that this 'magically' (I use this term since you did not elaborate at all on how it caused these problems, or even what the 'problem' truly is, it remains a mystery from the OP) caused the game to collapse.

    No, there are a lot of contributing factors that caused the game to collapse, Blizzard listening to the playerbase (in the small way they have) is probably the only reason the game is still afloat. The issue is listening to vocal minorities and overreacting, which Blizzard does continually.

    [WotLK] "We are bored because the [dungeon] content feels too easy"
    [Cataclysm] changes the game to revolve around harshly punishing dungeons and decides to make it so raids are accessible to even less of the playerbase and has virtually all progression content focus on running them, eventually dramatically turning it around with LFR

    [Cataclysm] "We want dailies" (Since there is a lack of decent single player content, and dailies is the main system Blizzard ever had.)
    [Mists of Pandaria] adds ludicrous amount of dailies and makes the entire game revolve around running them

    [Mists of Pandaria] "We are overwhelmed by the daily content, but Timeless Isle was kind of fun."
    [WoD] Removes nearly all daily content and turns everything into blandly grinding enemies for the same type of currency that used to be rewarded from a variety of content.

    Thankfully this trend finally lightened up for Legion, when Blizzard presumably realized they were overreacting and instead dramatized the story instead. World Quests were actually good. Feeling comfortable with their success, and despite players saying they hated the AP grind, Blizzard reintroduces the same grind only in such a way that feels totally meaningless to participate in, and with world quests that are (sadly) far less rewarding and significant. They also have chosen to force players to arbitrarily grind reputation (i.e., excessively run world quest content until they burn out and quit) so even though these world quests are fairly enjoyable, they are also fairly frustrating. And dare I mention the dramatic changes to leveling content and how it's burning out new players, so that it's literally forcing the game into decline by putting up a barrier for newbies to overcome?

    No, there are serious, dramatic issues within the game but "lol, Blizzard listened to the community by making content accessible" is not even remotely close to being one of them. This literally sounds like you are parroting the "make epics EPIC again" argument, in which case you can take that suggestion right into classic and keep it there for eternity.

    PS: And for the record, while I strongly disagree with your post and am all but disgusted by your opinion (if it does indeed revolve around "Blizzard listens to players [they don't, by the way] and this is causing the game to decline!"), I am responding in a calm manner. That doesn't mean that I am going to respect your opinion when your opinion revolves around ignoring player feedback (except yours, I suspect) because "it's causing the game to decline". Sorry if you find this offensive. When you create a post that doesn't revolve around wild assumptions and your extreme suggestion that would literally kill the game, and instead has a discussion revolving around discussing the problem instead of "lol let's encourage Blizzard to ignore the playerbase" then I'll be happy to post in a far more respectful way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brocksley View Post
    So when everyone complained about AP grind on artifacts, but liked everything else like skins and ability trees, why did they get rid of everything else and keep the AP grind? They don't listen to us on big issues, they have their own ideas and stick to them no matter what. You are giving players way too much credit for these changes.
    I want to add that I missed this gem earlier, it emphasizes a lot of what I am trying to say with my previous posts. Blizzard doesn't listen to the community so much as they react to what they see. They think they know better, and in many cases that is correct. But they put too much stock into what they think players will put up with. There are clear reasons why the AP grind still exists, and it has nothing to do with what players asked for or wanted. They feel this progression system keeps people playing, and perhaps that would in theory be correct if it didn't essentially frustrate players into quitting.

    The things players are asking for are rarely added, the things that are added tend to be what Blizzard believes will gain them the most money in the long term, the reason WoW is in decline is because Blizzard (Activision) is prioritizing milking the franchise over making the game fun to play. At least they still make a real attempt for the latter, but it's in such a comparatively small way that it can't really keep up with the bullshit any longer.

    PS: Great post by the way, completely agreed.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by klepp0906 View Post
    youre exactly right.

    except the plebs outnumber the people who play their mmorpg of choice passionately. blizzard is a business. While the distaste spreads much further and wider than ever... its still the minority. Theyre still making millions A WEEK.
    Need to pay all staffmembees which is a huge if not the biggest dropp of their income. Maybe they barely reach break even point.. who t f knows..

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    None of the fixes you mentioned are why BfA sucks. It sucks because the class design and gear progression is a shell of Legion's.
    Both of those things are almost exactly the same.....? we didn't get anything new besides artifact abilities in legion, those are still around and they replaced dead talents in most cases. As far as gear its actually EASIER then in Legion because we now have four slots that don't warforge or titanforge.....

  15. #175
    By the time they receive feedback on something (Legion), the next big thing is already too far down the pipe to see significant change (BFA). Other than bandaid fixes along the way, real change is exacted something like 1.5 to 2 expansions down the road. And any "new" ideas they have are too deep in development to change by the time we even see them. What results from this is a very disconnected feedback exchange. Imagine a thousand people giving you directions somewhere but you receive the feedback late. So the developers go by their instincts, which sometimes suck.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Bob View Post
    Hardcore the minority of what? There's hardly a player base anymore. I get you casuals wanna keep WOW casual, but as you can see that killed the game.
    So much truth in this.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I spoke about this in a classic thread : i believe Blizzards biggest issue is trying to listen. trying to please people. Games that have been successful recently have gone against the grain - created something different to what everyone else is doing - SP games in a sea of shitty MP games for example. Those designers had a vision, a dream for their game, and they created it. As it turns out, people responded well to that passion and dream, and flocked to those games.

    Taking some risks and doing something new and exciting could double wows subs in a matter of weeks.
    My point exactly. Catering to the masses is like spoiling your child. You will just end up with a rotten human being.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  18. #178
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    If you listen to players long enough you get WoD and BFA. Those are actually quite perfect if you listen to the forums. Instant gratification, no long term goals. Merely participating in the guaranteed-success version of all content nets you good weekly rewards, until the only way to progress is to faceroll the same content again in slightly tougher M+ (fighting timers.) or raids.
    Players got "what they wanted".
    Too bad players are fucking trash at game design.

    And no, I am not kidding. BFA is a nice culmination of all the things Blizzard has learned from player behaviour and feedback over the years. This is what people want. Just don't be surprised when people unsubscribe. Rush to 120, clear the map of WQs worth doing, do your Warfront, world boss and all the weekly, guaranteed success garbage.
    Log out and play something with actual goals that you want to strive towards.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2018-12-12 at 10:57 PM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
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    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  19. #179
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netherflame View Post
    Both of those things are almost exactly the same.....? we didn't get anything new besides artifact abilities in legion, those are still around and they replaced dead talents in most cases. As far as gear its actually EASIER then in Legion because we now have four slots that don't warforge or titanforge.....
    I'm not concerned with ease and I don't give a rat's arse about titanforging. I care about fun, and Azerite Armour lacks the fun of the Artifact weapons. They had lore, skins, and talents that you KEPT. There was a feeling of progression, whereas this gear feels temporary. The artifact system was clean: one UI for your spec.

    Idealliy, if they ever redo artifacts again, they should unlock talent rows instead of permanent talents.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Bob View Post
    Hardcore the minority of what? There's hardly a player base anymore. I get you casuals wanna keep WOW casual, but as you can see that killed the game. When Classic is finally released we can see which is superior, the old hardware WOW or the modern casual WoW. Time to wake up already.
    If anything, I'd say never giving any meaningful casual content probably did more to kill it. There was never anything any good actually really given to casual players. (About the only things you can really say is maybe WOTLK's raiding being more open and newbie friendly). Everything else that's been done that gets bashed for this is just like placating people with meaningless content in desperate hopes to stop them from leaving so they foot the bill for more raid content. Leveling didn't really get made "Casual friendly", it was already that. It got made worthless. Just like everything else, all in a big ol' effort to try and shovel every last person into some form of raiding. That's, IMO, what has done the most harm: Trying to make raiding the entire game.

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