To Wannabe Game Designers - What would you create instead of Warfronts and IE

[Aurabolt]

There should be a million posts here...

Yeah I'm surprised so few posts are here by now myself. @Shadowpunkz 's point is proven it seems.

[Cronovey]

That does not make any sense. Sorry. If i have been going to the same restaurant for 14 years OF COURSE i can tell when their food does no longer appeal to me. And some strange illnesses apart, i am very well able to say what tasted better before and what i don't like about it now.
And i agree with the person you answered to: You need not be able to cook very well (or at all) yourself to say if you like a meal or not. Something can be done exceptionally well and if you still don't like it...you don't like it. If the chef made it for you and you don't like it....the effort he put in is not really important. He made it for you and you do not like it. That's the state of things.

In this analogy just because you can tell you don't like it doesn't mean that you can actually do it better. The correct analogy here would be saying you don't like the food, so how would you cook the same ingredients better than the chef? In the correct case, you'd still have to know how to cook better than a professional which is the point of the thread. Knowing that you don't like something is great, but knowing how to do it better than the professional is highly unlikely. In this situation, if you didn't like a meal you'd simply stop going there for meals. However, the children that run around spouting that they know better than Blizzard can't seem to stop playing the game or move on like you would if a restaurant didn't make food you liked. They insist that they know better than the professionals. It's the equivalent of a random person at home making mac and cheese saying they know how to cook better than Gordon Ramsey because they didn't like that he served lamb somewhere because they just don't like it.

That being said, I'd leave the game alone for the most part. It's still the most successful MMO of all time right now, and still king of the hill in a dying genre that is being adjusted to make it more casual friendly in order to retain subscribers while still catering to high level players with some specific content like the M+ system and high end mythic raids without giving them astronomically better rewards than the average player. They've struck a decent balance between effort and rewards with the offchance of warforge/titanforge procs to keep people on the treadmill even after they've consumed the content designed for them.

If anything, add another talent line to bring back some Legiondary/Artifact abilities or passives for level 115 which would kick in right when your Legiondaries go inactive allowing you to retain at least some of the power you gained during the Legion expansion. This was always my take on it and hasn't changed. Make the legendaries go inactive at 115 instead of 116 and let you keep the effects of one of them (from a list of 3) so that even if you didn't play in Legion and have legendaries there would still be some form of character progression between level 100 and 120 since you aren't getting artifact actives or, for the average player, a legendary effect any more.

[DavoSavith]

I can go out to a restaurant and know I got a shitty plate of food without knowing how to cook better myself. That's the nature of being a consumer.

If Blizzard devs can't come up with superior ideas to my own, they shouldn't be getting paid.

P.S. I know someone on the WoW team and I have given concrete suggestions. But even if I couldn't, I find your line of reasoning lacking.

I agree, its not my job to come up with ideas to make me, the customer who pays $15 a month, to come up with better ideas than Blizzard.

[Appelgren]

Its pretty easy to get mad at Blizzard for creating content you dont enjoy...but as soon as you ask "what would you do differently?" people get silent.

Im gonna be honest, IMO, i dont think this game's engine can create *new* much different content than what we have today.
Its a old engine and a old combat system.

I THINK the only way for this game's engine to deliver "fun" is by content with a heavy "roleplay" feeling to it.

For example:
Wanna roleplay a mercenary to kill griefers and world pvp'ers?
Blizzard can create systems that support that. Maybe even create a player prison.

Wanna roleplay a business man?
Blizzard can create systems to built your empire. The more money you have, the more workers can work for you.

Wanna roleplay a Headhunter?
Go to a nearby board and see the "most wanted" players from your server.

------

Thats my opinion.

What are your ideas?

Thats a pretty optimistic request of you considering 99% of feedback is "oMg WoW is BaD anD iT sUCks!"

They are not interested in producing constructive feedback. They just want to complain and say vanilla was better...

[Wries]

Increase TF to legion levels and not make Uldir being this big boring giant almost square room. Probably also a second raid ready by release.

[AngerFork]

IMO, it comes down to player rewards and player psychology, as well as the actual fantasy of the designed game mechanic. In that vein, here's what I would tell the Blizz devs were they to bring me in to discuss Azerite, Warfronts, and Island Expeditions.

Azerite: Azerite right now IMO is an endless pit where I throw points in the hopes that gear I may attain someday (if I don't already have it) will have all the traits unlocked to be a full true piece of gear. I gain these traits through grinding...I'll get a little flourish when I get to the next Azerite level, but otherwise that change happens nearly invisibly. When I lose this gear or get an upgraded version of it, I will lose those traits if they aren't already on the new set of gear. That new gear might actually be worse (even with better stats) as I won't have my same traits. This as a player feels horrible...I have an endless grind just to have gear attain the level it appears it should be, and that gear may well be worse anyway.

Instead, I'd add a talent to the necklace similar to Concordance. This would be something that would go up each time I hit a new Azerite level. I'd also add unlockable talents to the necklace, taking out some of the bigger outer ring traits and making them selectable as talents. I'd then make those unlockable with your Azerite level, and you could choose three. These would be changeable at the Azerite Vendor, but would swap out with your spec as desired. You'd still keep some of the inner traits on the gear, but nothing that would affect combat strongly enough that you'd feel weak by not having it. This gives more of a feeling of progression with Azerite while at the same time keeping that cool "nifty perk" bonus you might get with a piece of Azerite Gear.

Warfronts: Warfronts right now are a game-breaking AFK paradise. You can easily go AFK and win, as there's no real chance of losing. Much of the warfront is down time even if you are playing...grind wood & iron to get siege engines, then wait for them to do most of the dirty work. At the end of each one, you get LFR level gear...as well as a free 370 for the first one each time it comes up.

Instead, let's make it a sort of PvP BG if you will. In a warfront, each side starts out on equal footing. From there, the race begins for each side to build up their base with lumber and wood as well as taking map objectives. For each objective you take, those minions then come after your foes in various areas. Your objective is still the same, but you have to watch all of the other base areas as well...and the PvP setup should keep you from AFKing too much. As you add in more warfronts, this can somewhat become a BG-style by itself with a few random options.

From here, take the same AI we've seen in Islands and that seems to be coming to Arathi and add that in as your PvE equivalent. You get the gear for winning (which gets better at higher difficulties), and the same prize for winning your first one in the set.

Islands: Islands have two large problems right now, the unusual reward cycle and the somewhat non-dynamic nature of their events. Neither of these is a super hard fix IMO...in fact, they largely are already working out the reward cycle thing with their stated 8.1 fixes. As for the dynamic nature of them, that can be largely fixed simply by varying up the mob & event spawns better. If an event can spawn at any point throughout an island rather than constantly at the same levels, you are a bit more on your toes. If you aren't always seeing the same set of Jinyu on that broken boat, it gives more of a sense of exploration rather than checking out particular hot spots.

The other thing I would emphasize with Islands is the one spot they seem to work really well, leveling. I'd add in more gear to leveling players to keep that pool filled up with more levelers, making it so they are more than ready to play at 120 rather than needing to find whatever gear is available once they hit max.

[Powerogue]

I think warfronts were a fun idea but do not require much teamwork. I am eager to see what the heroic version will entail on that front. I think they should be at least as tough as LFR raiding, in that ignoring all the mechanics should still kill you.

I think Island Expeditions suffered from lack of variety and a lack of non-RNG rewards to obtain after you finish your AP grind for your existing gear and reach exalted with the honorbound/7th legion. Both of these are being addressed in 8.1, so I look forward to seeing how that improves my view of them.

I think the fundamental problem with azerite gear is the fact that you don't feel a sense of steady progression. You earn your traits, yes, but then you're done. Once you get new gear, it doesn't feel like you're progressing further so much as erasing your progress and starting over. That's not fun to me! I realize this was done to counter for the "infinite grind" of legion AP on artifact weapons, but I preferred that to this. I do not think this fundamental flaw of azerite armor can be fixed, and the changes they're making to the system to make it less RNG just feel like band-aids that don't address my core grievance with it.

I definitely would have added a mage tower equivalent as a challenging PvE solo objective to gear towards, but would struggle as to what to reward players. We got class mounts, we got class weapon appearances, we got racial armor coming, maybe class themed armor? I realize we're full of it, but class themed armor specifically made to match your artifacts and order hall crests might be interesting. I was heavily disappointed with the armor sets from the order hall in that regard.

[Rozz]

I think Warfronts and Islands could work if executed differently. The ideas weren't horrible, but how they panned out are.

Warfronts could prolly have a worldpvp aspect, where you get rewards based upon your contribution, number of kills, etc. You can also add rares, but instead of rotating control the rares can just reset weekly and "winning" a zone can give bonuses/buffs. That way people have an incentive to win, but also have a reason to keep playing whether they lose or not. I do like some of the pve aspect (having lore figures 'lead' the charge), so some of that can be kept for flash points and mini bosses. As for armor , it's okay if it still drops off rares but I think you should buy them off a vendor using badges. These badges could come from players, rares, and mini bosses.

Islands need to be more intuitive and their loot process improved. It's already pvp or pve, but they need to either increase the azerite cap or decrease the time it takes for events to occur. I think having a random guaranteed invasion around the 4-5 minutes mark is good, or at least having the ability to trigger specific ones. If Blizz is worried about people triggering them too often, then we could make the items a little more pricey. Like 100 dabloons or something. Also part of me wonders if more people would do IEs if you didn't have to hover near a little table. There needs to be a better ui/toggle system to que in.

I'm no dev and these ideas are prolly terrible, but whatever

[Spazlord]

I really like the concept of Warfronts. I would:
- make them premade only
- make squad tactics mandatory (must split up as groups to handle multiple things at a time i.e. RTS game)
- force squads to stop doing X to reinforce Y (retreat from attempted base take, to help with incoming enemy patrol)
- like a disbursed raid, where coordination is king and "DPS" is important but secondary

All of these things are .. kind of .. in the current version but it's so watered down that none of it is necessary, you can just .. do whatever you want, and eventually you win. It might be that heroic mode satisfies my wishes.

Islands .. I dunno, they're not terrible, I just don't do them because I don't care. I don't even want a better reward, just a better reason. If they were more a part of the narrative that would be enough. The fact that they are random really takes them out of the narrative space completely so I don't see a fix here. At the moment they are just random places to go and kill random things for a resource that I don't care about. I don't level my neck at all and I'm a few levels behind people that do. Eh.

[Varanus]

I actually somewhat enjoy the warfronts. But I really don't like island expeditions. What I would have preferred would be more MoP style scenarios. I don't know what they didn't continue with those. I really enjoyed them. They could have made the IEs something like those. But instead they made a structureless, psuedo greater rift, kill all the things quickly, timed thing. : \

[Molis]

First of all: Fun classes.

Great feedback much improvement

[xpose]

Remove WF/IE and put it towards better 5 man content.

Bring back challenge modes or some kind of mythic+ reward system outside of just normal gear drops. Unique transmog, mounts ect..

Bring back mage tower for some solo challenge with unique rewards. Have some kind of stairway system with increasing difficulty.

[oathy]

Give Warfronts a pvp option, Like AV both sides have a leader that needs to be protected/killed.
IE the only way I could see it being slowed down is having to take control of an area like the buildings in hellfire.
people are still zerging ahead and want them finished asap

[clevin]

I would argue that an average person could not tell the difference between a shitty plate of something and an expensive one if they were both presented the same (e.g. $5/lb meat vs $20/lb). But you could take the same comparison to an expert who would easily distinguish the two.

Also, to know you got a shitty plate you'd have to know what a better plate was or at least aware of a better plate.

(Note: just saying your analogy is really bad not arguing one way or another).

Disagree. Expensive doesn't equal quality. Simplest example - I can tell if a steak is cooked correctly. If I ask for medium-rare and get medium-well that's incorrect. If I go out for Italian food I can likely tell the difference between a great meat sauce and a crappy one.

But the point is really that for years Blizz has told us not to spend time on solutions since most solutions don't really account for the variety of players and the impact of the solution. Instead, we're told, describe the problem well.

- - - Updated - - -

I really like the concept of Warfronts. I would:
- make them premade only
- make squad tactics mandatory (must split up as groups to handle multiple things at a time i.e. RTS game)
- force squads to stop doing X to reinforce Y (retreat from attempted base take, to help with incoming enemy patrol)
- like a disbursed raid, where coordination is king and "DPS" is important but secondary

that will never work for queued content so you eliminate what warfronts are meant to be.

It's not hard listing ideas, really:

1) VERY long quest chains, e.g. the 30+ chain in TBC's SMV for a high quality blue helm and, if you finished the raids, the Hand of Adal title.

2) Instances with patches. Right now we get a set of 5 mans at launch and that's it.

3) Farmable but rare things in the world - profession recipes, mounts, etc.

4) Stories with rep grinds ala the 5.1 rep related stories. Not sure of the Horde experience, but the Alliance rep had quests at various points where you interacted with the story... helping Jaina track down a betrayal in Dalaran, seeing Anduin confront Garrosh, etc.

Things like warfronts aren't inherently bad, but they're very very basic. Look at islands... for all the talk of the advanced AI does anyone really find the mobs any more devious or harder than usual? Not I.

[Aeula]

I think Island Expeditions would be better if they were implemented in a different way. I'd use the time wasted on Warfronts to add in a ship controlled by the player and have these Island Expeditions spawn organically around the ocean.

Warmode players could engage in PvP ship combat and organic wars over each of the islands.

PvE players can gather allies to defeat exceptionally strong pirate ships and creatures on the island.

Most of the focus would be on making the ship combat fun and opening up and encouraging exploration by having rewards scattered around the islands for the player to find, akin to the timeless isle and the isle of thunder but on a multi-island and ocean scale.

Warfronts are a dud. As it is they're basically LFR but you can only do it during a certain time period because reasons.

[Kyphael]

I'd mix Wintergrasp and Timeless Isle into one sole island dedicated to PVP. You step foot on the shore, you're flagged. The rewards? Special raids and world bosses smack dab in the center accessible to whatever faction has control. Battles occur every 3 hours like WG did. Treasure chests can be found in caves and bottoms of rivers all over the island accessible to both factions but raids are only accessible to controlling faction.

That's just to do away with the current broken PVP system.

[Bhorin]

Disagree. Expensive doesn't equal quality. Simplest example - I can tell if a steak is cooked correctly. If I ask for medium-rare and get medium-well that's incorrect. If I go out for Italian food I can likely tell the difference between a great meat sauce and a crappy one.

But the point is really that for years Blizz has told us not to spend time on solutions since most solutions don't really account for the variety of players and the impact of the solution. Instead, we're told, describe the problem well..

Okay, so you get a $5 overcooked meal and a $20 overcooked meal.. you need to tell which is which. It's a shit analogy even if you twist it to try to make it work.

Also, your "meat sauce" example is EXACTLY what I described in my post you disagreed with.. hur dur.

Also, to know you got a shitty plate you'd have to know what a better plate was or at least aware of a better plate.

[Muajin76]

More raids. I'd gladly produce 2-3 raids per raid tier and alienate all IE/WF.

F yea this. Having 2 raids on release would be great *just like they used to do*

[clevin]

They have way lower queue times than LFR, open close to instant. And they are heavily played.

And they arent that bad afterall. You run from hub to hub, clear it or collect mats. Thats much better than dying to a boss mechanic that never was meant to be for matchmade groups.

The idea warfronts suck is just one of the many loud complains of hardcore streamers. And people parrot them.

They're BORING though.

[Nnyco]

There should be a million posts here...

As OP stated, once people get asked they have no idea what to answer. Its much easier to blabber what youtubers say then to actually think for yourself you know.