Awful lore characters that seem to be forced into the storyline: the self inserts.

[AcidicSyn]

I am tired of players crying cause their favorite characters don't play out the way they dreamed. The story moves and we all have characters we like meeting unfortunate ends and characters we dislike. It's not your game and you are not special. Get hired by blizz, get in the dev team and try to get your way, if you care so much. It's their game.

This is like crying that film X didn't turn out the way you wanted. No shit Sherlock. It's not you making it. It's impossible to please everyone. Don't be so self centered. Theres a dev team and it's their story they are telling, not yours.

I will continue to cry about the WarCraft film not being done the way I wanted it to be done (Netflix series that took it's sweet time and followed the story point for point).

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He does get stomped though. He has two val'kyr empowering him and still does 0 damage to her, and the second the val'kyr is down, he has to run away. All this bitching about a character who has seriously not won an on-screen fight blows my mind, especially considering that as of 8.1 our most powerful character, no fucking joke, is Gallywix.

This revelation is almost gross enough for a faction change.....almost.

[Melusine]

At least this thread isn't a "we need moar strong, empowered women" thread. Every time Blizz does it, they write up a Mary Sue Joan of Arc character, realize how stupid it is and fade them from the spotlight.... or turn them into literally Hitler >cough< Yrel >cough<.

You want to make Ellen Ripleys, but end up making Rey, and when it fucks with our suspension of disbelief too much, and you catch onto it, you do the opposite of that. Stop it, Blizzard!!!

Rambo does not die, he goes to Hell to regroup. If someone who is a self-insert needs to die, the first on my list would be Sylvanas.

I wish Blizzard did this with a lot more characters. Starting off with Nathanos and Turalyon. Anduin comes close as Golden's posterchild though so this might change in the future too...

Nathanos… yes. Absolutely. He is a shitty made character to the last. No one is interested in following someone so devious and despicable that if you were given the alternative to say no to some of his orders, you would be inclined to do so. In terms of lore, he is being made out to be a spectacular leader in Sylvanas' stead, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Turalyon, on the other hand.... he has not had his story told in this game. What we all did on Argus did nothing to reveal him as a character, only him as an NPC. I'm actually surprised he has not been inserted in the Prophet Velen's place as Anduin's advisor. I say that also as Genn Greymane is... absent as of 8.1 while he and his people are fighting alongside the Night elves in Darkshore.

And as for Anduin Wrynn dying, his problem is not that he is an inserted character, because that is a full 180 degrees from the truth. His character as King of Stormwind is paramount to the Alliance, and losing him, and no other to fill his shoes, means the game folds in on itself. The throne of Stormwind is very different from the mantle of the Warchief. Many are fine with Sylvanas currently, me being one of those exceptions, but there are many other suitable replacements, and as the position of the Warchie is known for how tenuous it can be, in the Horde, under their 'might makes right' theory, a Warchief need not be liked or respected, just feared. That is where the Alliance differs.

The problem with Anduin Wrynn's character is, every time something happens that should compel him to grit his teeth and grow, do something that becomes morally gray, or have to make those really tough choices, the writing team balks at it every fucking time. When I say this, there were a number of things Anduin could have done... This entire expac, Sylvanas has always had the jump on Anduin, despite his advisory council, the forces he commands, apparently, none of that matters, because 'muh Sylvanas'. You had him and his forces walk into what was an obvious trap, and just kill her on sight like any normal invading army would have done, especially to one as dishonorable as she is, but imagine for a minute if that was what happened..... They find her on the throne, and, instead of a discussion going on, Anduin says instead "Sylvanas. As the King of Stormwind, and the right inherent to my crown, I hereby sentence you to death for crimes against Azeroth, its denizens, and the very land itself." and then filled her full of arrows, or at the very least, killed one more of her Val'kyr, making it that much more of a tenuous position for her to be in, that would have made a huge impact on the game itself. As it is, right now, The horde scored a great victory by burning down a world tree, a victory that should have had the tauren druids defect from her service, but, didn't, not even canonically, and when the Alliance takes the fight to Sylvanas at Lordaeron, that essentially ends in a draw. That is fucking terrible writing from a design team that needs to keep the other in check. Had the horde lost more than a capital city, it may have balanced things out, and as I said earlier, Sylvanas is not an irreplaceable asset to the mantle of the Warchief. Other better members of the Horde would have stepped forward.

[Deleted]

He does get stomped though. He has two val'kyr empowering him and still does 0 damage to her, and the second the val'kyr is down, he has to run away. All this bitching about a character who has seriously not won an on-screen fight blows my mind, especially considering that as of 8.1 our most powerful character, no fucking joke, is Gallywix.

Sorry, are we taking about Darkshore scenario? Because I just finished it on both sides and it's quite different from what you are describing.
I'll ignore the PC helping Nathanos/Tyrande as it helps either side depending which you play. Otherwise it goes like this:

1) Tyrande with powers of Night Warrior (powers so big that since first Night Warriors noone was able to survive the ritual) fights Nathanos, while the two Valkyr perform their ritual. They don't empower him, they try to raise dead night elves.
2) Tyrande loses and gets imprisoned by Nathanos
3) She frees herself and creates darkness and Nathanos comments that "she can't hide forever".
4) Malfurion shows up and it turns out that Tyrande summoned darkness so he could surprise Nathanos.
5) Nathanos still fights both and one of the Valkyr stops her ritual in order to help. The other still doesn't take part in the fight.
6) Eventually ritual is finished but Valkyr dies and Nathanos decides to retreat.

So yep, the guy can handle empowered Tyrande alone and he only retreats in face of her and Malfurion. And it's not because he would quickly loose - we don't know how that fight would go - but because he has valuable resources he can't afford to loose. Even if he won but at the cost of another valkyr and freshly animated dark rangers it would be too costly. He has too little to gain and too much at stake.

With that being said I don't think he is self-insert. But he is a guy who has become strangely powerful and got a lot of focus recently making him on par with characters who have been living for millenia and wield the powers of gods. I was ok with Nathanos as the trusted servant of Sylvanas. Now he's regularly coming over the top.

[Grazrug]

At least this thread isn't a "we need moar strong, empowered women" thread. Every time Blizz does it, they write up a Mary Sue Joan of Arc character, realize how stupid it is and fade them from the spotlight.... or turn them into literally Hitler >cough< Yrel >cough<.

You want to make Ellen Ripleys, but end up making Rey, and when it fucks with our suspension of disbelief too much, and you catch onto it, you do the opposite of that. Stop it, Blizzard!!!

Rambo does not die, he goes to Hell to regroup. If someone who is a self-insert needs to die, the first on my list would be Sylvanas.



Nathanos… yes. Absolutely. He is a shitty made character to the last. No one is interested in following someone so devious and despicable that if you were given the alternative to say no to some of his orders, you would be inclined to do so. In terms of lore, he is being made out to be a spectacular leader in Sylvanas' stead, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Turalyon, on the other hand.... he has not had his story told in this game. What we all did on Argus did nothing to reveal him as a character, only him as an NPC. I'm actually surprised he has not been inserted in the Prophet Velen's place as Anduin's advisor. I say that also as Genn Greymane is... absent as of 8.1 while he and his people are fighting alongside the Night elves in Darkshore.

And as for Anduin Wrynn dying, his problem is not that he is an inserted character, because that is a full 180 degrees from the truth. His character as King of Stormwind is paramount to the Alliance, and losing him, and no other to fill his shoes, means the game folds in on itself. The throne of Stormwind is very different from the mantle of the Warchief. Many are fine with Sylvanas currently, me being one of those exceptions, but there are many other suitable replacements, and as the position of the Warchie is known for how tenuous it can be, in the Horde, under their 'might makes right' theory, a Warchief need not be liked or respected, just feared. That is where the Alliance differs.

The problem with Anduin Wrynn's character is, every time something happens that should compel him to grit his teeth and grow, do something that becomes morally gray, or have to make those really tough choices, the writing team balks at it every fucking time. When I say this, there were a number of things Anduin could have done... This entire expac, Sylvanas has always had the jump on Anduin, despite his advisory council, the forces he commands, apparently, none of that matters, because 'muh Sylvanas'. You had him and his forces walk into what was an obvious trap, and just kill her on sight like any normal invading army would have done, especially to one as dishonorable as she is, but imagine for a minute if that was what happened..... They find her on the throne, and, instead of a discussion going on, Anduin says instead "Sylvanas. As the King of Stormwind, and the right inherent to my crown, I hereby sentence you to death for crimes against Azeroth, its denizens, and the very land itself." and then filled her full of arrows, or at the very least, killed one more of her Val'kyr, making it that much more of a tenuous position for her to be in, that would have made a huge impact on the game itself. As it is, right now, The horde scored a great victory by burning down a world tree, a victory that should have had the tauren druids defect from her service, but, didn't, not even canonically, and when the Alliance takes the fight to Sylvanas at Lordaeron, that essentially ends in a draw. That is fucking terrible writing from a design team that needs to keep the other in check. Had the horde lost more than a capital city, it may have balanced things out, and as I said earlier, Sylvanas is not an irreplaceable asset to the mantle of the Warchief. Other better members of the Horde would have stepped forward.

Sylvanas is fine in comparison to the alternatives. Let's keep it interesting in the world by letting us keep her.

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Sorry, are we taking about Darkshore scenario? Because I just finished it on both sides and it's quite different from what you are describing.
I'll ignore the PC helping Nathanos/Tyrande as it helps either side depending which you play. Otherwise it goes like this:

1) Tyrande with powers of Night Warrior (powers so big that since first Night Warriors noone was able to survive the ritual) fights Nathanos, while the two Valkyr perform their ritual. They don't empower him, they try to raise dead night elves.
2) Tyrande loses and gets imprisoned by Nathanos
3) She frees herself and creates darkness and Nathanos comments that "she can't hide forever".
4) Malfurion shows up and it turns out that Tyrande summoned darkness so he could surprise Nathanos.
5) Nathanos still fights both and one of the Valkyr stops her ritual in order to help. The other still doesn't take part in the fight.
6) Eventually ritual is finished but Valkyr dies and Nathanos decides to retreat.

So yep, the guy can handle empowered Tyrande alone and he only retreats in face of her and Malfurion. And it's not because he would quickly loose - we don't know how that fight would go - but because he has valuable resources he can't afford to loose. Even if he won but at the cost of another valkyr and freshly animated dark rangers it would be too costly. He has too little to gain and too much at stake.

With that being said I don't think he is self-insert. But he is a guy who has become strangely powerful and got a lot of focus recently making him on par with characters who have been living for millenia and wield the powers of gods. I was ok with Nathanos as the trusted servant of Sylvanas. Now he's regularly coming over the top.

He survived due to the Valkyr empowering him. He does zero damage and would have died if he wouldn't have retreated. What are you comlaining about here? That Tyrande isn't blinking him to death in two seconds?

[Mehrunes]

2 seconds on Google. Click it and read.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/windo...aclysm/credits

Alex was lead world designer, which means he was writing and directing quests and world content, i.e. writing it as the lead designer i.e. the lead writer, there isn't an actual "lead writer" position at Blizzard, and Kosak was only a game designer though I do believe he took over lead world designer/writing for the Firelands patch and beyond(?), but the point being that Metzen was just in a token 'creative development' role, which means he was just OK-ing whatever Alex was coming up with.

I put this in bold font so even you can read it. Can you digest all of that simple information?

Weirdly enough, the part you so generously put in bold does not exist on the page you linked. So given how it does not follow your own source, you may have just as well pulled it out of your ass. Which you most certainly did, because WoW's highest writing position is Lead Narrative Designer. Which, would you look at that, was what Kosak was in the past https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dave_Kosak

Frankly, I'm not sure why you linked that page. To show that Afrasiabi was the Lead World Designer? Something I already said in the very post you quoted? Gee, what a counterargument you got here. Totally proved me wrong right here

No, he outright stepped down as the vice president of story and franchise development and "retired" from an actual position of work (again, 2 seconds on Google- which you did not spend before asspulling stuff), he's still 'with' Blizzard, just not in any actual position or on a 9-to-5. He's basically like a pensioned consultant, living a really cushy life and tossing his ideas into Blizzard games. But all he's doing is helping creative design and vetoing ideas that might break lore too much (and whatever else, things of that nature).

At any rate, this retarded side argument that you've now thoroughly lost is all beside the point: Metzen never wrote Thrall as a self-insert and you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Hmmm. https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...aving-Blizzard

I don't think you know what retiring means by the way.

Also, Metzen gave an interview around Blizzcon, in which he outright said that he worked up to the earlier parts of Battle for Lordaeron but the later changes to it were already done without him and that it was as much of a surprise to him as it was to the players.

[Super Dickmann]

Sorry, are we taking about Darkshore scenario? Because I just finished it on both sides and it's quite different from what you are describing.
I'll ignore the PC helping Nathanos/Tyrande as it helps either side depending which you play. Otherwise it goes like this:

1) Tyrande with powers of Night Warrior (powers so big that since first Night Warriors noone was able to survive the ritual) fights Nathanos, while the two Valkyr perform their ritual. They don't empower him, they try to raise dead night elves.
2) Tyrande loses and gets imprisoned by Nathanos
3) She frees herself and creates darkness and Nathanos comments that "she can't hide forever".
4) Malfurion shows up and it turns out that Tyrande summoned darkness so he could surprise Nathanos.
5) Nathanos still fights both and one of the Valkyr stops her ritual in order to help. The other still doesn't take part in the fight.
6) Eventually ritual is finished but Valkyr dies and Nathanos decides to retreat.

So yep, the guy can handle empowered Tyrande alone and he only retreats in face of her and Malfurion. And it's not because he would quickly loose - we don't know how that fight would go - but because he has valuable resources he can't afford to loose. Even if he won but at the cost of another valkyr and freshly animated dark rangers it would be too costly. He has too little to gain and too much at stake.

With that being said I don't think he is self-insert. But he is a guy who has become strangely powerful and got a lot of focus recently making him on par with characters who have been living for millenia and wield the powers of gods. I was ok with Nathanos as the trusted servant of Sylvanas. Now he's regularly coming over the top.

Horde-side Tyrande at the stage you claim she loses is at 90% HP, Nathanos is at 50%. She breaks free on her own and the darkness was summoned to surprise Nathanos. Nathanos, still buffed by the val'kyr, then fights Tyrande along with the PC, while Malfurion fights the other. Then Tyrande disengages and oneshots the Val'kyr. They both empower him, he has two lines connecting him to them and the buff "Val'kyr's Boon" with two stacks that triple his stats in total. Nathanos ends the fight at 25%, whereas Tyrande is meant to end it at 70%, but varies depending on how hard you DPS her down. My take on it was wrong since I didn't see they'd removed Tyrande's immunity to outsiders from the PTR, but what you're saying is false.

@Grazrug

None of the characters you name have even a fraction of Thrall's presence, stated relevance to the faction or the amount of focus done by a single developer into their narrative arc. Metzen and Thrall are inextricable in a way that no other character is synonymous with a developer in this game.

[Melusine]

Sorry, are we taking about Darkshore scenario? Because I just finished it on both sides and it's quite different from what you are describing.
I'll ignore the PC helping Nathanos/Tyrande as it helps either side depending which you play. Otherwise it goes like this:

1) Tyrande with powers of Night Warrior (powers so big that since first Night Warriors noone was able to survive the ritual) fights Nathanos, while the two Valkyr perform their ritual. They don't empower him, they try to raise dead night elves.

Ok, I hear you so far....

2) Tyrande loses and gets imprisoned by Nathanos

She didn't lose, though. She had a spell cast on her, and frees herself from it.

3) She frees herself and creates darkness and Nathanos comments that "she can't hide forever".

She is not called the Night Warrior for no god damned reason, right??

4) Malfurion shows up and it turns out that Tyrande summoned darkness so he could surprise Nathanos.

The most fundamental strategy in warfare is the surprise attack, right? So, tyrande is being a skillful tactician and 'oh noes, she's just that bimbo with the thick accent, how can she pull something like this off?!!?' Remember she broke down the gates of Orgrimmar during the siege of Orgrimmar, too, remember? That was a surprise attack, as well.

5) Nathanos still fights both and one of the Valkyr stops her ritual in order to help. The other still doesn't take part in the fight.

Well, it isn't unbelievable that the Val'kyr have their role to play, and so does he. I'm really not sure what you think you're proving, here.

6) Eventually ritual is finished but Valkyr dies and Nathanos decides to retreat.

Yeah, because he lost. Think about this for a moment.... he lost a Val'kyr, but created a few allies, of which, Sira and Delaryn were among them. They could have fought on, but retreated.... because they knew what would happen if the fight continued..... the other Val'kyr would have died, and his newly risen allies would be given another death. Good possibility that would have also been Nathanos' last stand, as well.

So yep, the guy can handle empowered Tyrande alone and he only retreats in face of her and Malfurion.

Well, Tyrande faced off against Nathanos and 2 Val'kyr in the process of raising reinforcements with nothing but an Alliance hero to aid her. It's all fun and games when you have the upper hand, though....

And it's not because he would quickly loose - we don't know how that fight would go -

Actually, we do... and so does he. Malfurion would tear Nathanos apart. He knows this. hell... the only reason Malfurion didn't tear his Dark Lady to pieces is because of a dishonorable sneak attack from Saurfang. To think Nathanos could stand on his own in one-on-one combat against either one of them, much less both of them in a handicap match is fucking delusional.

but because he has valuable resources he can't afford to loose.

Actually, he can afford to lose them. That is Sylvanas' way. She has always used her troops as if they were arrows in her quiver, both unusually expendable, and easily replaceable, so long as her Val'kyr keep raising them.

Even if he won but at the cost of another valkyr and freshly animated dark rangers it would be too costly. He has too little to gain and too much at stake.

I disagree, here. If he managed to take either one of them out at the expense of his own life for his unappreciative and pathetic Dark Lady, he would have gained her far more than her loss of him as...whatever the hell he thinks he is to her, I don't know.

With that being said I don't think he is self-insert. But he is a guy who has become strangely powerful and got a lot of focus recently making him on par with characters who have been living for millenia and wield the powers of gods. I was ok with Nathanos as the trusted servant of Sylvanas. Now he's regularly coming over the top.

You give him far too much credit. It's like you are looking at him through a lens that makes him appear to be a King, when in fact, he is a pawn. It isn't a terrible thing to have him be a tactician (which he is not), or an advisor (of which he is not equipped for, either), and since he can't do either of those things, he relegates himself to an expendable asset, an arrow in the Dark Lady's quiver.

[McFuu]

But Nathanos has been around since Vanilla wherein the Alliance on more than one occasion try to kill him, but only come up with nil results.

Steve Danuser didn't show up until 2015...

This is still Nathanos being Nathanos.

Nathanos has been around forever, but he's only really started taking a major role within the last few years. I honestly hate his current characterization, because it doesn't mix well with his lore, and he comes off as too much of a self righteous cunt for a character with the history they have. Nathanos would be better suited as a "gunny highway" style character, not Angelica Pickles.

[Feanoro]

But Nathanos has been around since Vanilla wherein the Alliance on more than one occasion try to kill him, but only come up with nil results.

Steve Danuser didn't show up until 2015...

This is still Nathanos being Nathanos.

None of that precludes the character being hijacked. He was definitely not second in command of the Forsaken back then, nor was Sylv fawning on him, nor was he going toe to toe with racial leaders.

[Theoris]

I'm pretty sure I killed Nathanos back in Eastern Plaguelands in Classic. Guy was a pain, and so were his disease-riddled h̶y̶e̶n̶a̶s̶ dogs.

Why did he come back again?

Feign Death, mate.

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But Nathanos has been around since Vanilla wherein the Alliance on more than one occasion try to kill him, but only come up with nil results.

Steve Danuser didn't show up until 2015...

This is still Nathanos being Nathanos.

It's called "cherry picking".

[FelPlague]

Hasn't Nathanos been pretty much like this since Vanilla? Apart from the whole having skin thing.

Hard to see how he's a self insert character by anyone.

Yeah, its a joke, hes not actuallty a self insert, rememeber back in vanilla when the alliance was sent to kill him and he took like an entire gorup to "kill" but really he just played dead.

[Aeula]

Anduin and Baine are Golden’s self inserts, or at least the inserts of what she believes the ‘perfect man’ to be.

[Jastall]

He does get stomped though. He has two val'kyr empowering him and still does 0 damage to her, and the second the val'kyr is down, he has to run away. All this bitching about a character who has seriously not won an on-screen fight blows my mind, especially considering that as of 8.1 our most powerful character, no fucking joke, is Gallywix.

Well, Gallywix's mech, to be precise, and only when it's loaded to the brim with Azerite (at last, an actual display of how powerful that is). Once it runs out, Mekkatorque makes a mockery of him.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, Gallywix's mech, to be precise, and only when it's loaded to the brim with Azerite (at last, an actual display of how powerful that is). Once it runs out, Mekkatorque makes a mockery of him.

We kind of have to take the mech into account since for Mekkatorque we also take his mech into account when ranking his power. But yeah, so long as it has azerite in it, Gallywix's mech is the most impressive thing we've seen Horde-side. Thing decimates an army and destroys an airship and it dominates Mekkatorque in a mech to mech fight on the alliance ship too, since it barely takes any damage and does most of the DPS.

It's the most fun I've had with a Horde-side questline in a fairly long time. No moralizing, no muh honor, no "life is pain, woe is me" bs like with Sira or Sylvanas, just blowing shit up, ripping off uninsured workers and having a blast doing it.

[Khaza-R]

So you don't know about Steve Danuser making it VERY clear that Nathanos is him, with multiple cringe overload tweets?

But Danuser wasn’t hired until 2015 and Nathanos first appears in Vaniila back in 2004. So I’m not sure how he’s an insert.

Nathanos is completely the same as he was in Vanilla. Same snarky, dismissive personality. Same loyalty to Sylvanas. Still the Chanpion of the Banshee Queen. Literally the only thing that changed was that he received a new body. I’m not sure that even qualifies as special treatment in the story.

[Jastall]

We kind of have to take the mech into account since for Mekkatorque we also take his mech into account when ranking his power. But yeah, so long as it has azerite in it, Gallywix's mech is the most impressive thing we've seen Horde-side. Thing decimates an army and destroys an airship and it dominates Mekkatorque in a mech to mech fight on the alliance ship too, since it barely takes any damage and does most of the DPS.

Yeah, I see it as a pinnacle of Goblin tech; supremely powerful, but shoddily made and doesn't last long, while ol Mekka's toys are less overpowered but a lot more reliable. If memory serves, the Horde fights him in the Dazar'alor raid after he takes down Gallywix. Which to me implies that the army-destruction we saw was a result of Gallywix emptying tons and tons of Azerite at once, and that usually his mech isn't quite as powerful.

Not that I think we'll ever see the GMOD in action again, and especially not in a plot-important scene. Like all goblin inventions, it's designed as a one-note thing that will never be used twice.

[Feanoro]

But Danuser wasn’t hired until 2015 and Nathanos first appears in Vaniila back in 2004. So I’m not sure how he’s an insert.

Would you prefer the word "hijack" then? Or perhaps "projection"?

Literally the only thing that changed was that he received a new body.

And became one of the main Horde characters, and Sylv loved him while alive, and now loves him enough to risk a valkyr on him, and he's too cool to return it, and so on...

Man I cannot stand her ... I think it's her voice actress? I dunno. But I hated Nazmir and I hate any WQ she comments on.

There's an addon called BeQuiet that surpresses the WQ popups.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, I see it as a pinnacle of Goblin tech; supremely powerful, but shoddily made and doesn't last long, while ol Mekka's toys are less overpowered but a lot more reliable. If memory serves, the Horde fights him in the Dazar'alor raid after he takes down Gallywix. Which to me implies that the army-destruction we saw was a result of Gallywix emptying tons and tons of Azerite at once, and that usually his mech isn't quite as powerful.

Not that I think we'll ever see the GMOD in action again, and especially not in a plot-important scene. Like all goblin inventions, it's designed as a one-note thing that will never be used twice.

Yeah, I can see it being really resource intensive, since at the time it blasts the army, it's done a sequitous continent-wide flight too and I doubt it's anywhere close to fully refueled when it takes down the airship either. I haven't seen his raid appearance yet, just saw some datamined dialogue where it's mentioned he shows up to do something.

I do think it'll at least be the new thing we see Gallywix on, and we know goblins have a side-role in Mechagon later on. Just having it does wonders though, and Gallywix and Mekkatorque shit-talking each other while in their mech army to single mech fight was great.

@Feanoro

Obviously the Champion of the Banshee Queen would be there in an expansion where said Banshee Queen is the leader of the Horde. Not to mention the Horde cast is so depleted by this point, that beefing up a previously perennial character is more a benefit than it is a loss. Same with Rokhan being a much bigger deal in this one. We need to rebuild our cast, especially since Sylvanas is set to bite the big one.

[Feanoro]

Obviously the Champion of the Banshee Queen would be there in an expansion where said Banshee Queen is the leader of the Horde. Not to mention the Horde cast is so depleted by this point, that beefing up a previously perennial character is more a benefit than it is a loss. Same with Rokhan being a much bigger deal in this one. We need to rebuild our cast, especially since Sylvanas is set to bite the big one.

That's fine, by all means build existing characters, and add new ones. Come on though, you can't tell me you didn't roll your eyes at the bits of Dark Mirror where (to recycle a bit) "Sylv loved him while alive, and now loves him enough to risk a valkyr on him, and he's too cool to return it". It's incredibly cheesy, and that's saying something for Warcraft!

I rolled my eyes at Tyrande as the Night Warrior. They talk about it basically being super OP and then when you fight Nathanos, even though just mere moments before, she froze an entire outpost of Horde with a single glaive, that ability is nowhere to be found during this encounter. She didn't even manage to kill Nathanos. Was she supposed to be impressive there? I mean, I'm the one that killed the Valkyr too ... It was stupid lol

Exactly, they build it up only for it to mean nothing. Instead of a badly needed victory for NElves, it's another letdown.

[Super Dickmann]

That's fine, by all means build existing characters, and add new ones. Come on though, you can't tell me you didn't roll your eyes at the bits of Dark Mirror where (to recycle a bit) "Sylv loved him while alive, and now loves him enough to risk a valkyr on him, and he's too cool to return it". It's incredibly cheesy, and that's saying something for Warcraft!

It's the dialogue between them at the ranch that reeked the most of bad fanfiction. The fact that while dead they're both too damaged to do more than pantomime their feelings through their respective jobs is something I liked. Ditto his brief flash of humanity having Nathanos be both emotionally regretful over his cousin and physically repulsed by the regular Forsaken and the Undercity until he adjusts. Past that Sylvanas did know her Val'kyr would make it, so it's not like she was sacrificing one to give Nathanos a better outfit.