Koltira Deathweaver Imprisoned in Legion...why?

[Super Kami Dende]

What does it say about Koltira then.

That his character got caught up in horrible story writing.

[RundinO]

honestly there are fewer cases of military leaders suffering consequences for their actions than there are fingers on an troll's hand... fewer still where the commander in question survives. not sure what can be gained to discuss the authority of any given figure for their handling of apparent traitors.


i think this line of reasoning is a poor bit of logic to follow. Sylvanas' treason in the Sacking of Gilneas didn't involve colluding with enemy forces. Different cases, different examples of disregard for one's orders. Sure you can say what right does she have to get one someone's case for not following orders... but that doesn't lessen the fact that Koltira was working WITH the enemy he was ordered to be fighting, this is a far cry from disregarding RoE.

as to whether or not Sylvanas has a right to act in this case? As the acting Commander in charge of the forces Koltira was working with... yes she had the right to act. I would say Garrosh had the same right in the Gilneas campaign as well, but didn't act on it.

Depending on the RoE, disregarding orders without colluding with the enemy can be just as bad (if not worse, depending on the circumstances and outcome). I.e., a subordinate starting a war with a nation without authorization versus an unauthorized armistice between two individuals. Yes, the armistice may have cost lives, but which had the most impact on the entire faction as well as the length of said impact?

[Karrotlord]

Depending on the RoE, disregarding orders without colluding with the enemy can be just as bad (if not worse, depending on the circumstances and outcome). I.e., a subordinate starting a war with a nation without authorization versus an unauthorized armistice between two individuals. Yes, the armistice may have cost lives, but which had the most impact on the entire faction as well as the length of said impact?

What war did Sylvanas start? She was ordered to take Gilneas by Garrosh. The subordination was in using the Blight without permission because conventional warfare would've been suicide. Suicide of the Forsaken likely being Garrosh's goal since he hated anything not Orc, and undead/demons especially.

[RundinO]

What war did Sylvanas start? She was ordered to take Gilneas by Garrosh. The subordination was in using the Blight without permission because conventional warfare would've been suicide. Suicide of the Forsaken likely being Garrosh's goal since he hated anything not Orc, and undead/demons especially.

So instead of taking an entire city to be used/absorbed into the Horde to become a bastion of that area, she razed everything to become unlivable thus slowing/halting the progress made to conquering the north on the continent?

Sure, losing Andorhal was definitely worse...

Edit: She declared it couldn't be taken, or taken swiftly enough (to have an excuse to use Blight?).

[Karrotlord]

So instead of taking an entire city to be used/absorbed into the Horde to become a bastion of that area, she razed everything to become unlivable thus slowing/halting the progress made to conquering the north on the continent?

Sure, losing Andorhal was definitely worse...

Edit: She declared it couldn't be taken, or taken swiftly enough (to have an excuse to use Blight?).

She didn't raze everything. The Blight was only being used on the front lines. And even if she did continue with it, the Blight doesn't make things unlivable unless used to an excessive amount ala Southshore.

[cparle87]

He was one of Sylvanas' commanders at Andorhal. He made a stupid decision based on his friendship with a Human and it cost Horde lives.

And one of the irreplaceable 9 val'kyr. That's probably what angered Sylvanas the most.

[Sesto]

real talk tho I like how there was so much speculation around koltira and blizzard's future plans but in reality we found out sylvanas was just keeping him in a small cage and we break him out without much resistance

[Beerbill Society]

-snip-

I think what we all can agree on is that after Legion the Death Knights (including the PC) are pretty much at war with Sylvanas, if not the Horde+Alliance as factions. It makes absolutely no sense for a PC DK to take part in a "faction conflict"...especially on Sylvanas' side.

Thanks for perfectly summarize what happened, especially since you took in careful consideration that those events happened in Cataclysm, when Sylvanas was just a faction leader that was on the bad side of the Warchief Garrosh.

I just to add that it makes no sense for any race / hero class included after Wrath.

DKs are sworn to fight the scourge and later legion, faction conflict is bs, just like the Illidari, or pandaren, highmountain tauren, lightforged draenei and crack elfs.

They all have shallow reasons to be involved in faction conflict.

[Glordif]

Top notch "truth" you got here. Never mind that no one denied that Battle for Andorhal included the Scourge at the start. But the battle for Andorhal being between three factions at the start does not change the fact that Koltira was at no point authorized to make truce with either of the two enemy factions to team up against the other. Meaning that him doing so was treason through and through. Making your "truth" a non-contribution, that counters nothing that has been said in the thread by your "Sylvanas apologists" boogeyman (an accusation particularly pointless in this case because later on you agreed that Koltira did in fact commit treason).

Leaping a bit here, As far as we know Koltira was asked to take Andorhal. That is the only order we know he's been given. As the general in charge it's up to him to decide how best to do that. If that means using a known and proven horde tactic (a tentative teaming up with the alliance.) then how is it treason? He didn't refuse to attack the Alliance a short time later, he just used his head to reduce the number of casualties his side would suffer.

If anything he showed the Alliance honour, a core trait of the Horde.

When did Garrosh forbid her from resurrecting humans?

You're right he didn't explicitly say do not resurrect humans, but his disdain and opposition to the practice was obvious.He compared he to an enemy he had just fought and won against.

And when did she directly betray the Horde in Gilneas? When she used the Blight when Garrosh forbade the usage of Plague? Which he did specifically to cause the Forsaken to deplete themselves while fighting a conventional war? No one is obliged to follow suicidal orders. And Gilneas has nothing.

Yes she used a tactic she was explicitly forbidden to use. As far as we know Koltira was not told he couldn't team up with the alliance to eliminate the unknown treat in the area, so long as he took Andorhal.

Throwing you're army at two enemies will loose you more troops then throwing them at one. Especially when that enemy can simply resurrect their soldiers and increase their ranks with the Alliance dead.

[Coldfrostzero]

Thanks for perfectly summarize what happened, especially since you took in careful consideration that those events happened in Cataclysm, when Sylvanas was just a faction leader that was on the bad side of the Warchief Garrosh.

I just to add that it makes no sense for any race / hero class included after Wrath.

DKs are sworn to fight the scourge and later legion, faction conflict is bs, just like the Illidari, or pandaren, highmountain tauren, lightforged draenei and crack elfs.

They all have shallow reasons to be involved in faction conflict.

Illidari, Ebon Blade, Highmountain, and LF Draenei are probably the biggest stretches to be involved in a faction conflict for sure. Same argument could be made with the Cenarian Circle (druids) and the Earthen Ring (shamans).

Panderan have quests where they are outright attacked by a faction and saved by the other. They could see their brethren siding with the other faction that attacked them and since they lost family/friends/homes could take that as them being traitors to their people. The whole love/friendship/whatever between Ji and Aysa kind of complicates that and even further that Blizzard barely has touched on Panderan since MoP.

Void elves I think have more of a reason to be in conflict as they were exiled and after Alleria nearly corrupted the Sunwell... They believe they have every right to it as the Blood Elves. Alleria is also in direct conflict with Sylvanas too.

[RundinO]

She didn't raze everything. The Blight was only being used on the front lines. And even if she did continue with it, the Blight doesn't make things unlivable unless used to an excessive amount ala Southshore.

Absolutely everything doesn't have to be intentionally razed to make an area "unlivable". The Blight is a plague that corrupts everything it touches and was used as a scorched earth tactic. The Forsaken used it at and around a very large portion of the area between the gates of Gilneas and Shadowfang Keep, thus dwindling wild game, farm-able land, etc. down to a point where it becomes unfeasible to sustain any decent number of the "living".

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blight_(plague)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth


Not only did her insubordination lead to a loss of a port city, it lead to the loss of many Horde soldiers there as well as the entirety of the Forsaken fleet that were present (seems a little larger than the losses at Andorhal).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Invasion_of_Gilneas

[Mehrunes]

Leaping a bit here, As far as we know Koltira was asked to take Andorhal. That is the only order we know he's been given. As the general in charge it's up to him to decide how best to do that. If that means using a known and proven horde tactic (a tentative teaming up with the alliance.) then how is it treason? He didn't refuse to attack the Alliance a short time later, he just used his head to reduce the number of casualties his side would suffer.

If anything he showed the Alliance honour, a core trait of the Horde.

He was asked to defeat the enemies vying for control of Andorhal as well. Defeating enemies is the stark opposite order to "team up with your enemies because of your personal feelings towards their commander". And he didn't attack the Alliance "a short time later". After Andorhal the fighting stops altogether and the player has enough time to run errands for the entire non-aligned population of WPL. Koltira only participated in fighting against the Alliance when Alliance militia broke his truce with Thassarian. Which was a pointless loss of Forsaken lives. And doesn't even constitute him attacking the Alliance, he was only reacting to being attacked by them. Also, he wasn't employed by the Horde in general, he was employed by Sylvanas directly. And she doesn't give a damn about honor.

You're right he didn't explicitly say do not resurrect humans, but his disdain and opposition to the practice was obvious.He compared he to an enemy he had just fought and won against.

Garrosh showed disdain at the fact Trolls existed in the Horde. Did Trolls existing in the Horde commit treason by existing too?

Yes she used a tactic she was explicitly forbidden to use. As far as we know Koltira was not told he couldn't team up with the alliance to eliminate the unknown treat in the area, so long as he took Andorhal.

I know. Which, as I said, Garrosh forbade only because he wanted to use Gilneas as a mean for the Forsaken to die out, as seen in the vision in Edge of Night. Somehow they weren't forbidden from using it in Silverpine and Hillsbrad, which were much less crucial fronts. Instead in Silverpine they were outright given a strain of the Blight that got Horde's seal of approval.

Throwing you're army at two enemies will loose you more troops then throwing them at one. Especially when that enemy can simply resurrect their soldiers and increase their ranks with the Alliance dead.

And throwing your army at them in succession rather than at the same time is not an option, because...?

[Zandalariprelate]

Thanks for perfectly summarize what happened, especially since you took in careful consideration that those events happened in Cataclysm, when Sylvanas was just a faction leader that was on the bad side of the Warchief Garrosh.

I just to add that it makes no sense for any race / hero class included after Wrath.

DKs are sworn to fight the scourge and later legion, faction conflict is bs, just like the Illidari, or pandaren, highmountain tauren, lightforged draenei and crack elfs.

They all have shallow reasons to be involved in faction conflict.

Dks are working with Bolvar in buildig his scourge 2.0, there is an alliance quest about protecting a red dragon casting a spell for sending the soul of his counsin to the dragon afterlife so he isn't raised and we are attacked by a ebon blade knight during that quest, so with this in mind, if you see any class npc, just think this is an outlier or the npc works for some shaddy boss

[Mehrunes]

So instead of taking an entire city to be used/absorbed into the Horde to become a bastion of that area, she razed everything to become unlivable thus slowing/halting the progress made to conquering the north on the continent?

Sure, losing Andorhal was definitely worse...

Edit: She declared it couldn't be taken, or taken swiftly enough (to have an excuse to use Blight?).

First of all, wait to avoid addressing how Sylvanas didn't start a war when contested by @Karrotlord.

Secondly, if only the part of the Horde that'd occupy Gilneas wasn't going to be undead... Then, and only then, you'd have an argument.

Absolutely everything doesn't have to be intentionally razed to make an area "unlivable". The Blight is a plague that corrupts everything it touches and was used as a scorched earth tactic. The Forsaken used it at and around a very large portion of the area between the gates of Gilneas and Shadowfang Keep, thus dwindling wild game, farm-able land, etc. down to a point where it becomes unfeasible to sustain any decent number of the "living".

And since the Horde faction in the region was not leaving, that's utterly meaningless. Besides, Forsaken can clean up most strains of the Blight. And in Silverpine they were given a strain so weak they were constantly complaining about it.

Not only did her insubordination lead to a loss of a port city, it lead to the loss of many Horde soldiers there as well as the entirety of the Forsaken fleet that were present (seems a little larger than the losses at Andorhal).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Invasion_of_Gilneas

Do point out the connection between Sylvanas using Blight in Gilneas to Alliance getting involved in that conflict and sending 7th Legion. Oh, right, you can't do that, because no such link exists. And when it comes to the enemy she was actually fighting at the time, which is just Worgen, the moment they learned of the Blight, they decided to pack up and flee with the Night Elves.

Would you look at that, looks like a complete victory to me. As opposed to Worgen mounting a resistance when Sylvanas fought the war Garrosh's way (i.e. the way that was deliberately aimed at creating as many losses on Forsaken side as possible, so he could then abandon them to the Alliance and cause them to die out). So I'm not sure where you're seeing those many Horde losses in there.

And when Alliance got involved and invaded Gilneas? Would you look at that, Sylvanas defeated the 7th Legion and then forced an unconditional surrender on the GLF at the end of Silverpine anyway. By the end of Cata Gilneas was completely abandoned by the Alliance, as per UVG. Meaning Sylvanas won.

[Falynn1]

real talk tho I like how there was so much speculation around koltira and blizzard's future plans but in reality we found out sylvanas was just keeping him in a small cage and we break him out without much resistance

same... I was really hoping they would do more with the concept. I feel like they had planned for Koltira to turn into what Nathanos is now. given fact that they didn't, I still wanted it to be more of a big deal when we rescued him from the Undercity. there should have been more of a resistance and even a backlash of us betraying Sylvanas in the process. I suppose she was too busy with Nathanos to care. I've always liked Koltira's character. I do hope they bring him back into the story, in a good way.

[RundinO]

First of all, wait to avoid addressing how Sylvanas didn't start a war when contested by @Karrotlord.

Secondly, if only the part of the Horde that'd occupy Gilneas wasn't going to be undead... Then, and only then, you'd have an argument.

Avoid? No. Poor tactics on her part lead to a stalemate/slow loss for the Horde. The time she wasted allowed for the Worgen people to seek safety within the Alliance and the Alliance soldiers to intervene. A quick and decisive victory at Gilneas would have meant the end of the Gilnean people and no one specifically there to ally with the Alliance. The only reason for the Alliance to launch an attack after this would have been to secure Gilneas for themselves.

About the Forsaken occupation: So it's okay that only Sylvanas's troops can effectively occupy a city that was meant for the "Horde"? Got it.

And since the Horde faction in the region was not leaving, that's utterly meaningless. Besides, Forsaken can clean up most strains of the Blight. And in Silverpine they were given a strain so weak they were constantly complaining about it.

I'm sure they'll get right to cleaning that up. You know, so the "Horde" can actually utilize it.

Do point out the connection between Sylvanas using Blight in Gilneas to Alliance getting involved in that conflict and sending 7th Legion. Oh, right, you can't do that, because no such link exists. And when it comes to the enemy she was actually fighting at the time, which is just Worgen, the moment they learned of the Blight, they decided to pack up and flee with the Night Elves.

Before the wall ever fell (The Shattering), the Night Elves had been helping the Worgen develop a cure to keep their sanity after their transformation. Hence, Sylvanas (in her infinite wisdom) should have expected the Alliance to intercede/assist. Not doing so was idiotic at best.

Would you look at that, looks like a complete victory to me. As opposed to Worgen mounting a resistance when Sylvanas fought the war Garrosh's way (i.e. the way that was deliberately aimed at creating as many losses on Forsaken side as possible, so he could then abandon them to the Alliance and cause them to die out). So I'm not sure where you're seeing those many Horde losses in there.

Your idea of a "complete victory" is nonsensical at best considering their (the Horde's) initial goals were not achieved.

And when Alliance got involved and invaded Gilneas? Would you look at that, Sylvanas defeated the 7th Legion and then forced an unconditional surrender on the GLF at the end of Silverpine anyway. By the end of Cata Gilneas was completely abandoned by the Alliance, as per UVG. Meaning Sylvanas won.

Sure, only achieving her own goals is considered a victory. However, it's only a personal victory at best considering only her undead fodder are the most "equipped" to control the area (if not the only ones).

[Beerbill Society]

Illidari, Ebon Blade, Highmountain, and LF Draenei are probably the biggest stretches to be involved in a faction conflict for sure. Same argument could be made with the Cenarian Circle (druids) and the Earthen Ring (shamans).

Panderan have quests where they are outright attacked by a faction and saved by the other. They could see their brethren siding with the other faction that attacked them and since they lost family/friends/homes could take that as them being traitors to their people. The whole love/friendship/whatever between Ji and Aysa kind of complicates that and even further that Blizzard barely has touched on Panderan since MoP.

Void elves I think have more of a reason to be in conflict as they were exiled and after Alleria nearly corrupted the Sunwell... They believe they have every right to it as the Blood Elves. Alleria is also in direct conflict with Sylvanas too.

Crack elfs are nightbourne haha

Which get helped by both factions.

Void ones indeed have a better claim to get involved in the conflict than any other races.

[Kallisto]

So instead of taking an entire city to be used/absorbed into the Horde to become a bastion of that area, she razed everything to become unlivable thus slowing/halting the progress made to conquering the north on the continent?

Sure, losing Andorhal was definitely worse...

Edit: She declared it couldn't be taken, or taken swiftly enough (to have an excuse to use Blight?).

The blight was used because it was the only weapon that ensured Garrosh's plan to make the forsaken extinct failed. That was the main reason he had the forsaken flood through the small gap in the wall. It was survival.

[RundinO]

The blight was used because it was the only weapon that ensured Garrosh's plan to make the forsaken extinct failed. That was the main reason he had the forsaken flood through the small gap in the wall. It was survival.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Garrosh didn't send her up against a tough force. However, weren't there other methods that could have been used to take the city?

I noticed Sylvanas didn't have many (if any) aerial units that she so often employs during combat and I sure as hell didn't see Gilneas having an aerial assault force. Instead of futilely trying to break a massive wall and/or gate, why not drop tons of troops and vehicles in? Was I expecting too much out of her?

[Beerbill Society]

Dks are working with Bolvar in buildig his scourge 2.0, there is an alliance quest about protecting a red dragon casting a spell for sending the soul of his counsin to the dragon afterlife so he isn't raised and we are attacked by a ebon blade knight during that quest, so with this in mind, if you see any class npc, just think this is an outlier or the npc works for some shaddy boss

Haha that quest is weird to be done as a DK, arguably the DK just wanted a new mount? The dude was already dead no harm done.