Tragedy, rage, and "kicking ass" ≠ Strong Female Character™

[Beloren]

The problem with so many "Strong Female Characters™" these days is that they're strong male characters.

These days? If they are not exactly like male characters, the SJWs will have a go. So all the "strong" women are strong because they behave like men. And the ones who are strong behaving like women? Tossed aside because the feminists do not approve.. not soceities version of " male" enough.

I guess the SJWs can buy and play the games instead.

[Halyon]

I'm fairly sure that stereotypes has something to do with it. Or rather, avoiding them. A strong female character doesn't have to be offensively strong, but it's been done to death in the 'subtle' way.

Oh she's the heart of the <thing>, she keeps <the thing> motivated blah blah blah...

And in a universe where magic exists, the line between genders are blurred... women being physically weaker doesn't matter as much because magic exists and doesn't discriminate between genders.

I don't really see a problem when the universe is also mainly about conflict. Not all women want or choose to be healers or 'the heart'.

[Debased]

WoW has the worst writing I have ever seen in a major video game, and I've seen a lot of crap. I'm not just talking about the plot and narrative, but even the in-game dialogue is just terrible.

Like it's shamefully bad.

So I naturally ignore it.

I think I understand OP's point anyway. If you didn't know the mentioned characters gender, you'd assume they're males. You can rant all day about how this may be backwards or ignorant, but in reality its just poor writing.

[sam86]

Sargeras tried to rape azeroth so theres that.

how exactly he wants to rape a planet ? is that like Archimonde love for trees joke or something ?

[Video Games]

how exactly he wants to rape a planet ? is that like Archimonde love for trees joke or something ?

He said the titan inside is the most beatiful thing he ever saw so hes been trying to get on that for 10k years. Yeah, its weird to me too

[Freaking Frumpy Frak]

I agree with you, OP but I think you're wasting your time trying to convince anyone you're correct

To do so you'll need to convince people that the myth that "there's no such thing as gender roles" is false, which is effectively impossible when said people have already dismissed you as a "Literal Nazi".

[Lumineus]

I'm confused, if women are supposed to be the emotional ones, how are they supposed to deal with tragedy if it inevitably hits them harder?

That's the point. They show strength by tempering their emotions and being the pillar that others can rely on. Note that not every character has to be "strong." Weak characters can be equally interesting, especially if their arc takes them from such a position to a state where they gain that strength of will.

Rage, aggression, and badassery are not really what makes characters of either gender strong, though. They can make a character cool in some cases -- if it's not overdone to the point where it's every third character like it is in Warcraft -- but that's not even remotely the same thing. Actually, being excessively aggressive and vengeful is a prime weakness of the Byronic Hero (along with extreme arrogance and thinking with the incorrect head). Again, weak characters CAN be good characters, but they're NOT strong.

Take Varian Wrynn for example. When he was first reintroduced in WotLK, he was a very weak character. Sure, he exuded superficial masculinity, but he couldn't really express it in a way that wasn't "RAWR ME KILL ORCS! /pounds chest" Since that was his default reaction to everything, there was no way to escalate based on the severity of the situation, so his character lacked nuance. Contrast Thrall who was faced with similar hardships, and while they may have defined him as a person, he didn't let them rule his life until he found his spirit animal through a secret Night Elf ritual.

And this, ultimately, is the problem with a lot of storytelling in /current year/. It's not strong when men do it, and it's STILL not strong when women act that way. They should stop selling it as such.

[Lazuli]

Jaina and Chromie are the only females I like in WoW.

You have good points though its sadly true of most female characters.

When did being feminine become a bad thing?

Its kinda like how dudes are pussies nowadays IRL, everythings swapped LOL

[Fetus Rex]

Well written "Strong" Female Characters in the last 5 years -

1. Misty Knight - Netflix Marvel.

Badly written ones -

1. Everyone else.

Come on, she sleeps around and acts like a man from ghetto. Uh nuh homie I can shootas them balls too yo. I thought I was watching 80' male detective not a woman. But she so badass aiyyo.

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Strength =/= conforming to gender roles/expectations.

I think the three 'strong' characters you listed aren't strong for a number of reasons, but none of those are that they don't do enough arts and crafts.

I do agree that Meerah is a strong character, but in the context of Warcraft she doesn't appear so. If you look at Meerah's existence, having the sunny outlook she does and always continuing on is really impressive.

That's precisely what strength is for females. Men and women differ and are measured with different criteria in mind. Gender roles have their own sweet feats of strength.

[Deleted]

Its almost like they have to when in these settings everything is out to kill and/or rape you.

Yeah I'm not exactly waiting on masculine female heroes.

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And how many of those claimed that being weak and soft are exclusively female traits?

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You might want to extend your reading material further than marvel.....just sayin.

Anduin was often quoted "gay" because he was weak and soft, almost feminine. These are feminine traits.
Even Christie Golden threw a tantrum and claimed that rage and anger were toxic masculine traits on her twitter.

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Did you miss where i said in these fantasy settings and i said or?

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Sargeras tried to rape azeroth so theres that.

So what exactly do women need masculine traits in a fantasy setting for? Unless you're some haircolored dyke like those in the 2011's lmao!

[SirCowdog]

Anduin was often quoted "gay" because he was weak and soft, almost feminine. These are feminine traits.
Even Christie Golden threw a tantrum and claimed that rage and anger were toxic masculine traits on her twitter.

People that think all women are weak and soft probably don't know very many women.

Anduin being weak has nothing to do with female traits. The only reason why someone would think that is because they have a VERY skewed perception of women. Christie Golden's nonsense views about rage and anger doesn't make this any less true, and her perception of how women should be sounds pretty suspect as well.

People are people. Human beings have a pretty damn wide range of behavior, and the less we use stereotypes and broad range labels to define them, the better.

[Eazy]

Anyone else notice the irony of someone named "ThottStation" whining about what should define a strong female character?

Thottbot was long time before teenagers started saying "thot".

[MrLachyG]

snip

so female characters can only be ones that are pretty and sing songs and shit..... but the moment a female character does anything due to emotion or something violent that isn't ok? I mean, females can be violent as well. why can't we have both male and female characters that have a wide variety of emotions and actions; instead of the extremely 1950 stereotypical bullshit you're peddling

[mickybrighteyes]

Requirements for a "Strong Female" Character.
1. Is Strong. This can refer to mental, physical, emotional, or magical (including spiritual) strength, but most people will have their own definition of what 'strong' means.
2. Is Female.

That's it.

Whether you like that character is completely subjective and has no impact on whether they are a "Strong Female" character or not.

in wow.... the strong is shown by:

1. they suffer loss of loved one
2. they rage at source of loss
3. they never forget or forgive

every female character getting any screen time now is Wrath era Varian with eye-shadow. Or like Legion era Genn.

But maybe they won't fuck up Tyrande like they did Jaina (who has had multiple closure arcs where she appears to come around and give up her hate but instead doubles and triples down as she channels her rage at a different target)

[Daevelian]

Thottbot was long time before teenagers started saying "thot".

You guys need to read over the thread, it's been addressed several times already.

You (and the others who keep saying this without further reading) are only making yourselves look silly every time you bring me back to this thread to point it out yet again.

Edit: It also does NOTHING to diminish the irony of the name, regardless of the source.

[Niwes]

TL;DR: Meerah (and Dolly & Dot) is a stronger female character than Jaina, Sylvanas, Tyrande... and all the other "badass" female characters combined.






The problem with so many "Strong Female Characters™" these days is that they're strong male characters.

Y'know what men find "awesome" and "cool"? Fictional characters who get SUPER ANGRY and start kicking ass and fighting and destroying whole armies with awesome weapons and powers because this character tragically lost family and friends and all they held dear and it's so tragic and sad and (kneels in devastation) "NOOOOOooooooo~!") and their eyes go bloodshot and they start unleashing fury and rage and DIE DIE DIE [explosions everywhere] and...

You get the idea.







But Meerah?

She drives her cart, and sings to Dolly & Dot. Because they like it when she sings to them. And when the big, strong troll dude complains that her bad singing makes him want to revert to Troll cannibalism, she's all "fine, whatever." And then sings to them under her breath, because that's her act of rebellion. Because she likes singing to Dolly & Dot. And they like it.

THAT is a strong female character, and also a fun one. Which is in direct contrast to the OTHER Vulpera you meet in the Horde Val'dun questline, who is the typical Strong Female Character™ in that she's a kickass, angry, super-capable warrior with lots of weapons who FIGHTS FIGHTS FIGHTS and kills lots of evil snakemen and can kill a thousand more and is like "GRRRR. I'M BADASS AND TOTALY SERIOUS." Wow, what a Strong Female Character™!

I can't even remember her name.



Adding tragedy and horrific loss to a female character doesn't make them "strong". Effortlessly taking down men triple your weight with ballet-like kung-fu or giant clashing weapons doesn't make a female character "strong". Showing the audience how many hundreds or thousands of enemy soldiers she's ordered killed doesn't make a female character "strong". That's what makes male characters strong. That's what guys like.

Removing femininity from female characters and replacing it with masculinity doesn't make them better or more relatable to female audiences.

Everyone loved Meerah. Guys AND girls loved Meerah. But would she be a better Strong Female Character™ if Dolly & Dot were both killed by Alliance Purge Squads while she watched, and through teary eyes swore vengeance and began systematically killing soldiers using giant-sized machetes while heavy metal music played in the background? No. Because that's what men think is cool. That's what gets men pumping their fist and yelling "Fark yeah!" at the screen. That's a Strong Male Character.

Making female characters more masculine and less fun isn't making them strong™, is all I'm saying.



ADDENDUM: It's not all bad. Props to Blizzard for not having Thalyssra fall into that trap.



At no point in Legion did Thalyssra grab an axe and charge in blind rage and slaughter hundreds of Suramar Felborne, drenching herself in their blood as she roared in rage over memories of all the children she cared in Shal'Aran being massacred. Didn't happen. She never shedded her femininity in voice, manner, appearance and action just because tragedy/anger/killing/masculinity makes women "strong".

Also props to Legion devs for Stellagosa and Valtrois. Going out and having awesome adventures with gabbing and bickering and fun and awesome outfits and actual strong female characters. No massacres or vengeance or horrifying tragic development... just two gals having zany adventures with magic and fun.

can identify myself with the point. can agree to around 80%. i am male.

the only 3 things that stinks for me here, are:

- missing differentiation. too black/white for my taste.
- the underlying oppinion swinging in the background, and presented as a fact, that every male is generally based on fighting, rage and killing.
- but foremost: the game is called World of WARcraft. so... whats the point here ??? i dont assume that such a game, regardless if male or female, do NOT want be driven by killing, fury, actions and fight. If so, blizz hardly had missed the base/purpose of their product and i would be in the wrong game.

all in all a bit weird and for my taste too typically „female activist“ic undifferentiated. but each to their own.

[Spiffums]

TL;DR: Meerah (and Dolly & Dot) is a stronger female character than Jaina, Sylvanas, Tyrande... and all the other "badass" female characters combined.






The problem with so many "Strong Female Characters™" these days is that they're strong male characters.

Y'know what men find "awesome" and "cool"? Fictional characters who get SUPER ANGRY and start kicking ass and fighting and destroying whole armies with awesome weapons and powers because this character tragically lost family and friends and all they held dear and it's so tragic and sad and (kneels in devastation) "NOOOOOooooooo~!") and their eyes go bloodshot and they start unleashing fury and rage and DIE DIE DIE [explosions everywhere] and...

You get the idea.







But Meerah?

She drives her cart, and sings to Dolly & Dot. Because they like it when she sings to them. And when the big, strong troll dude complains that her bad singing makes him want to revert to Troll cannibalism, she's all "fine, whatever." And then sings to them under her breath, because that's her act of rebellion. Because she likes singing to Dolly & Dot. And they like it.

THAT is a strong female character, and also a fun one. Which is in direct contrast to the OTHER Vulpera you meet in the Horde Val'dun questline, who is the typical Strong Female Character™ in that she's a kickass, angry, super-capable warrior with lots of weapons who FIGHTS FIGHTS FIGHTS and kills lots of evil snakemen and can kill a thousand more and is like "GRRRR. I'M BADASS AND TOTALY SERIOUS." Wow, what a Strong Female Character™!

I can't even remember her name.



Adding tragedy and horrific loss to a female character doesn't make them "strong". Effortlessly taking down men triple your weight with ballet-like kung-fu or giant clashing weapons doesn't make a female character "strong". Showing the audience how many hundreds or thousands of enemy soldiers she's ordered killed doesn't make a female character "strong". That's what makes male characters strong. That's what guys like.

Removing femininity from female characters and replacing it with masculinity doesn't make them better or more relatable to female audiences.

Everyone loved Meerah. Guys AND girls loved Meerah. But would she be a better Strong Female Character™ if Dolly & Dot were both killed by Alliance Purge Squads while she watched, and through teary eyes swore vengeance and began systematically killing soldiers using giant-sized machetes while heavy metal music played in the background? No. Because that's what men think is cool. That's what gets men pumping their fist and yelling "Fark yeah!" at the screen. That's a Strong Male Character.

Making female characters more masculine and less fun isn't making them strong™, is all I'm saying.



ADDENDUM: It's not all bad. Props to Blizzard for not having Thalyssra fall into that trap.



At no point in Legion did Thalyssra grab an axe and charge in blind rage and slaughter hundreds of Suramar Felborne, drenching herself in their blood as she roared in rage over memories of all the children she cared in Shal'Aran being massacred. Didn't happen. She never shedded her femininity in voice, manner, appearance and action just because tragedy/anger/killing/masculinity makes women "strong".

Also props to Legion devs for Stellagosa and Valtrois. Going out and having awesome adventures with gabbing and bickering and fun and awesome outfits and actual strong female characters. No massacres or vengeance or horrifying tragic development... just two gals having zany adventures with magic and fun.

You forgot "Is he nice?" "Did you name him?" "Oh can I name him?" which shows she knows what she wants and takes what she wants!

I love Meerah!!!!!

[Jastall]

I mean, I agree with the premise somewhat, but your examples are not very good.

Tyrande exists in a society where the females are the warriors. She just witnessed an attempted genocide on her people. It makes perfect sense that she would go ballistic, it has nothing to do with stonk women but is a natural progression of her character and completely in line with her WC3 behavior, way better than the wallflower she often was in WoW.

You won't ever hear me defend the abomination that is Jaina's writing since Theramore, but now she's settled down. BfA's story arc has her dealing with her guilt by falling in a deep depression, she hardly comes off as a stereotypical power fantasy who solves everything with violence now. She doesn't display any especially aggressive behavior, apart from her OP power levels which happens because magic.

Sylvanas is a point I don't understand. Before she got turned into a cartoonish villain she was a complex character. She wasn't that aggressive, more like conniving, manipulative, ruthless and determined. None of these traits are especially masculine, or gendered at all, and hell save for her pseudo-romance with Nathanos her gender barely matters to her story at all.

Also, the implication that a "real" female character can't do more than be passive-aggressive is not going to win you friends, I'm warning you.

[Florena]

It is true that often times people write 'strong female characters' that focus solely on them kicking ass and fail to give them real development and personality.

However, the reason these character are flawed is because of what they LACK, not because they kick ass being inherently bad for a female character. A female character being powerful is not inherently good or bad, what matters is their motivations, personality, character strengths and flaws, etc. A shallow badass female character isn't bad because she's badass, it's because she's shallow.

[Vasaru]

I think the best example of a Strong female character is the non fighting leader of the order of embers.

not the fat captain.

that is the only one there is the rest are just stupid.

Lady Lucille Waycrest. Yeah I totally agree