Unpopular opinion: J. Allen Brack was right

[DrStiglit]

Oh for fuck's sake.

Literally every post on every forum, is like that.

Are you really suggesting that I put a fucking disclaimer at the end of every post I make?

Then don’t complain about getting attitude from people, that’s the only reason I said anything. You can’t just expect people to assume you are talking solely about your own opinion especially considering how common it is for other to inject their opinions as fact in the vanilla discussion. It happens all too frequently that supporters of vanilla are being told they’re wrong based on someone else’s opinion.

And you’re getting pretty ridiculous there thinking you need to add a disclaimer. Just an imo at the beginning or end will do just fine.

[Bodakane]

Then don’t complain about getting attitude from people, that’s the only reason I said anything. You can’t just expect people to assume you are talking solely about your own opinion especially considering how common it is for other to inject their opinions as fact in the vanilla discussion. It happens all too frequently that supporters of vanilla are being told they’re wrong based on someone else’s opinion.

And you’re getting pretty ridiculous there thinking you need to add a disclaimer. Just an imo at the beginning or end will do just fine.

Ok, then I guess you deserve attitude from me because this post doesn’t seem like just an opinion....right?

[Deleted]

I mean about the whole "You think you do, but you don't" thing.

Let me explain, I think everyone is missing the point with Classic, not just Blizz but also the community:

Going back to the vanilla experience, while it may be fun for a while, it's a stupid move, Blizzard probably has dedicated a lot of money (maybe not "new expansion" kind of money, but still it must have costed quite a bit) to recreate something that most people will abandon after a short time. Then they'll be able to say "See? We told you" and everyone will forget about it, when they could've easily done the right move.

People don't miss the actual vanilla game, they miss the experience: the slower leveling and gameplay, the harder difficulty, the sense of actually achieving things, the progression, etc.
But these are things that can be easily done or replicated in the current WoW, with some adjustements.

But going back to the full, brutal, boring vanilla experience? It's just crazy. I agree that a lot QOL improvements done over the years have taken away from the game, but a lot of them make a lot of sense and actually turn the game into a more enjoyable experience.
You can have a new expansions that shifts the gameplay more towards the classic experience but keeping improvements done over time when they make sense. They can even do this in a "Cataclysm" style xpac that changes the entire game, so the leveling experience is consistent with the top level content.

Instead they wasted resources on an experiment that will most likely fail and they just move on to give us another mediocre and bland xpac, no one will benefit.

Oh, and I'm sure that there will be some people perfectly happy with Classic, but quite honestly, they'll probably be a small minority of the playerbase.

The thing that annoys most people about the Brack video is how condescending he is. The tone of his voice and attitude is disrespectful to the questioner and fan-base. He doesn't raise any valid arguments against bringing back classic. Bugs can and are being fixed. And the amount of effort required to find a tank in vanilla is overstated.

Blizzard would not be releasing classic wow if they weren't making guaranteed money from it. It will bring more players to BFA because they have to pay for a sub. It's free money for Blizzard.

In theory future expansions could have vanilla wow gameplay, but that would make the game inaccessible for many people, which goes against the capitalist philosophy of big game studios, everything has to be dumbed down to reach out to a larger audience.

[EternalBany]

He was

I raided in vanilla, and people wont make it past BWL, not cause of mechanics ofc but the time you need to spend farming materials, resitances, etc
Its just not fun anymore

[Deleted]

To a certain extent, I agree. Modern WoW could be better than vanilla, vanilla was in no way perfect and at the end of the day it is 12-14 year old content that many people know like the back of their hand. It's a fantastic game, I've been playing it actively for a very long time at this point both on retail and through other means, but it has some serious flaws.

The issue is that they are extremely unlikely to actually change modern WoW so radically that it becomes a game that is satisfying to the audience WoW Classic is designed for, and doing so would alienate the audience Modern WoW has gradually been shifting towards for years. And so, Classic WoW is the next best thing short of an entirely new MMO designed for people like us, which would be extremely risky to make for an AAA dev, considering the raw amount of cash and manhours developing a gargantuan game like an MMO takes. What Classic WoW will do for them, provided they don't make radical changes that alter the game experience, is to at a reasonably small fee, secure a revenue stream that requires next to no further development and extremely light maintenance which could last for a very, very long time since they are cornering a small but dedicated market that currently has next to no products made for them. That's why the project is in the works, not because they want to preserve the game as a historical milestone for the industry, or because some head devs really want to replay it. Blizzard is a business, one of the biggest companies in the industry, and they wouldn't sink cost into something they aren't certain will make a profit.

Best case scenario for my camp is, I think, a wildly successful WoW classic launch, successful enough for blizz to consider the idea of future Classic expansions made with the same core design philosophy and without repeating the implementation of features many Classic fans consider mistakes (Flying, dungeon finder, multiple difficulties, "welfare" gear, etc etc). But I think the most likely outcome is Classic releasing, being absolutely gargantuan during the first month, losing ~90% of its playerbase very rapidly after, and having fresh servers made every 2-3 years for the remaining 10%.

[AceofH]

You could go "clean slate" or you can just introduce a different tier of raids and dungeons that don't work with the LFG/LFG system, require attunement, etc. I know these are big changes and would require LOTS of effort, but they're possible.

it goes beyond LFD/LFR and attunements.
its the little things that make the game an actual rpg.
things like -> having to make sure you have arrows or bullets as a hunter, and that you keep your pet fed. sure. it can be annoying, but it makes it more immersive, like you are an actual hunter.
or the fact that you're joe nobody out learning the ropes and going on to do heroic things.
think about the stuff that occurs in retail - we just got done saving the world from Sargeras and the Burning Legion. we've defeated old gods, dragons, titans, etc. and what are you doing now? mundane crap.
meanwhile in vanilla it made sense for you to be the person doing the mundane crap, because frankly, "who the hell are you?"

[volescue]

You could go "clean slate" or you can just introduce a different tier of raids and dungeons that don't work with the LFG/LFG system, require attunement, etc. I know these are big changes and would require LOTS of effort, but they're possible.

They are possible, but why would you want to force that on the current player base who, by the fact they are continuing to pay $15 a month, are fine with the state of the game as far as Blizz is concerned.

There is some overlap between the players who are actively playing BFA and those who actively want to play classic, but not a ton.

[worgentophat]

It remains to be seen.

[FAILoZOFF]

The op is kinda right, sure there ARE people that want specifically Vanilla the exact same way it was, but there are also people that just want a WoW that isn't current retail.

[frogx]

Not realy, people want classic.

[frogx]

He is right to some extent.

WoW classic will huge a huge sub spike for couple of months but will be near empty after the first year.

That's how I see it & I would have said the same thing.

Depends how fast people will clear everything

[Deleted]

Mainly, I was talking about nostalgia.

It's a thing. I know many people who wanted to re experience vanilla only to quit after reaching 20ish due to leveling being dumb AF.

Only purists will remain which is not a lot of people.

What exactly are you basing this assumption on?

The fact that you wouldn't do that?
That's your own taste, not an argument.

Meanwhile, market research suggests otherwise. As I have explained in detail in this post, Retrogaming is slowly but surely becoming a major market segment in the gaming industry, which up to now, no major company has really started to exploit with a major product.

I guess a lot of people will be surprised just how successfull this project is going to be.

[anon5123]

It's a thing. I know many people who wanted to re experience vanilla only to quit after reaching 20ish due to leveling being dumb AF.

Only purists will remain which is not a lot of people.

Got a non-anecdotal source to back up this "not a lot of people" statement?

Unless 300 thousand people (from the petition signatures) is "not a lot" to you.

[DesoPL]

J Allen Back? Ah that guy who killed on friday Heroes Of The Storm. I can move along, nothing to see here.

[Demithio]

Retro gaming is only useful when u get shitty current games.

Hey! I think you're on to something....

Shitty current games like WoW perhaps?

[Deleted]

People want to play vanilla because of nostalgia is not an argument?

Nice try, but I won't let you dodge your own statements so easily:

As i said, it’s mostly nostalgia. Including those petition signers. Most of them. But hey that’s my opinion and that’s how i feel it’s going to be.

Claiming that "it's MOSTLY nostalgia" is not an argument, because you have no evidence to back this up. It's your opinion, nothing else.

I want Retro games because I miss the characteristics of the games I played as a child and teenager.
Nostalgia has nothing to do with that, I simply want a product with certain characteristics, which are not offered to me in what is currently available.

I want an MMORPG with strong focus on character development, lots of individual choices, a grindy gamestyle, a world that is not tailored to one big storyline and strong emphasis on social interaction. Retail WoW is not offering these characteristics, and from my dabbling in other MMOs, i know there also is no product currently on the market which does, not at the level of polishing, technical stability and quality control I am used to from playing Blizzard games.

Similarly, I learned to drive with cars that didn't have automatic transmission, and when they became widespread, I still used (and use to this day) cars that offer manual transmission...because I like having that extra level of control while driving. You are trying to tell me that I drive a car with MT due to nostalgia, which is simply nonsense.

Retro gaming is only useful when u get shitty current games.

Again, your opinion, not a fact.
I have loads of current videogames that are not "shitty" by any stretch of the imagination. BfA is shit, but BfA is far from the only game I have availale to me.

[Auberdeen]

If humans were logical, yes OP, I agree with you. But they aren't. There will be people that "play" vanilla even if they hate it just because 'its better'. WoW isn't even a hobby for most anymore.

youre right, its an addiction, in which people are constantly chasing for an experience and feeling they once had.

[Alydael]

People want to play vanilla because of nostalgia is not an argument?

Retro gaming is only useful when u get shitty current games.

I think there are people that like Retro games- even if the current games are good.

I have a friend that collects game systems and had basically all of them in his garage- which he set up like an old style arcade. He even has all the new stuff. Most of the time- people over his house are playing the old stuff, even when the current games are good.

The older games are a different style of play. New games focus on social stuff, graphics, systems. The old style games were more focused on actual gameplay. That's why some of them are just pure fun to play.

Some of them are really challenging too. There is this one Alex Kidd on Sega that's a downright breaker. No continues- three lives only and you have to beat the level boss by rock/ paper/scissor, so you can die just by guessing wrong, ha ha.

[Deleted]

Nostalgia is a valid argument and most players will play for nostalgia. Period.

Putting "Period." at the end of a sentence doesn't intimidate others, it doesn't make you sound any more valid, and it doesn't win you an argument.

It's just the verbal equivalent of a bawling 5 year old stomping his tiny feet and screaming because his mommy refuses to buy him a toy.

If you think otherwise, then I dunno what to tell you.

Well, the smart thing to tell me, would be an admittance that you, up to now, confused your opinion with factual evidence, and that you are very sorry for doing that, and that you will try to cntinue future discussions based on logic.

[Deficineiron]

You are the one who tried to shut me down. You are claiming that people don't play because of nostalgia but because it's a good game. Vanilla is inferior in every aspect. It's just nostalgia for most people whether you like it or not.

Good day sir.

the star wars argument strikes!