Another victory for the Horde!

[Grazrug]

That's true, Blizz don't have the balls to let the Horde win like way back in WC1, the last time we won one of these. It's also true that the Horde right now are cartoon villains. That said, that's a fate miles more preferable than being part of Anduin's happy fun brigade and the Horde has been sidekicks to the Alliance in virtually every expansion where the faction war hasn't been the focus. The prior two expansions were about us helping WC2 and current Alliance characters save the world and killing our entire WC2 cast again, after we'd killed a few in TBC.

Given that the faction war is an inevitable plot point, a Garrosh or Orgrim-style Horde is more sustainable than a muh noblesavage one, and a Sylvanas style one also ekes out by a fraction.

I just remembered back when we were ONE TIME, not the sidekicks, back in Cataclysm for the first time, when Thrall defeated Deathwing and forced players of both sides to take quests from him. And the salt mines went overboard in the forums. Good and funny memories.

[Stelio Kontos]

Prove me wrong. Who do you think the protagonist here? Can't be Sylvanas since she is clearly the antagonist/villain. So only Jaina and Anduin remain. Rings any bells?

Yeah, I've seen enough of your posts to know arguing against your bias is pointless.

Carry on being the good little stormtrooper you are.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah good, total war.

As any good war is fought.

I welcome this Horde with open arms.

And yet they cry bloody murder when "total war" even looks in their direction. Remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the (compared to the Horde) benign internment camps? I guess they should have chucked the orcs into fires alive. Maybe turned all Taurajo into ground hamburger.

[Super Dickmann]

I just remembered back when we were ONE TIME, not the sidekicks, back in Cataclysm for the first time, when Thrall defeated Deathwing and forced players of both sides to take quests from him. And the salt mines went overboard in the forums. Good and funny memories.

They were right to bitch. Neither Thrall, nor Malf, nor Khadgar work for this kind of story. All they do is cheapen racial and factional themes and story by making them cosmopolitan. The Ancients should not have ditched the night elves. Malf and Cenarius shouldn't be sitting on their asses while the orcs run roughshod over their land, no more than Thrall should be taking the place of Dragon Aspects.

[Grazrug]

They were right to bitch. Neither Thrall, nor Malf, nor Khadgar work for this kind of story. All they do is cheapen racial and factional themes and story by making them cosmopolitan. The Ancients should not have ditched the night elves. Malf and Cenarius shouldn't be sitting on their asses while the orcs run roughshod over their land, no more than Thrall should be taking the place of Dragon Aspects.

There is nothing wrong with having a horde leader taking the spotlight for a single expansion. Hyjal was in danger due to Deathwing, Ragnaros and much worse stuff than the Horde did in Ashenvale. Friendly reminder that between MoP and legion we had Anduin(Black Prince shenenigans and landfall campaign), Velen, Khadgar, Turalyon, Tyrande, Malfurion, Alleria, Maiev and other Alliance superheroes in charge. This was far more thinning the motivations, especially during Legion. I felt numb and avoid during the plot due to the lack of represantation for the red team.

[Xath]

The Horde, save for the Forsaken and blood elves, was true up till Cataclysm. That is when the entire "noble redemption arc" was completely wrecked and everything since then, at least when it comes to the Horde, has been about two things; Horde players who see these issues and point them out and Horde players who either twist logic and/or mispercieve things (they then invest a lot of time trying to convince others that their misperception is the truth).

Sadly, we've since long become a minority and the latest massively infantile outbursts by the "Horde players" shows just how much the Horde playerbase changed for the worse over the years. Back then we'd get complaint threads about not wanting paladins or elves in the Horde. Now we get complaint threads about characters doing what they always did because those creating them wish to remain oblivious to lore depictions of their favourite character(s).

Yup I'd agree a big part of it is the dev team thinks it's cool to be evil which is why they push it so hard.

[Super Dickmann]

There is nothing wrong with having a horde leader taking the spotlight for a single expansion. Hyjal was in danger due to Deathwing, Ragnaros and much worse stuff than the Horde did in Ashenvale. Friendly reminder that between MoP and legion we had Anduin(Black Prince shenenigans and landfall campaign), Velen, Khadgar, Turalyon, Tyrande, Malfurion, Alleria, Maiev and other Alliance superheroes in charge. This was far more thinning the motivations, especially during Legion. I felt numb and avoid during the plot due to the lack of represantation for the red team.

There's no variant of this where "Don't worry, guys, I'm just managing this tornado for a few years" is a good excuse for leaving your people to hang out to dry. Especially when Cenarius reacted to some guys chopping wood by attempting to off them all last time. Running errands for another faction's characters and watering down storylines and themes in the process is bad whether it's blue or red.

[Jastall]

There's no variant of this where "Don't worry, guys, I'm just managing this tornado for a few years" is a good excuse for leaving your people to hang out to dry. Especially when Cenarius reacted to some guys chopping wood by attempting to off them all last time. Running errands for another faction's characters and watering down storylines and themes in the process is bad whether it's blue or red.

I think Thrall having to step down to stop the world from literally ending would have been fine had he also not been shoved in player's faces so much. The Alliance has tons of neutral characters, having a Horde one go neutral to face such a massive threat isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially when the character is initially well liked by both sides and has never been portrayed as especially anti-Alliance, not out of principle.

The bad thing was the dodgy writing surrounding him appointing Garrosh and Cairne/Vol'jin immediately and predictably being at odds with the guy, and then of course Metzen deciding everyone loved his self-insert so much that the expansion's story almost had to be all about his midlife crisis.

Cenarius doing nothing to help the NEs, however, was beyond stupid both in Cata and BfA. But at least he had an excuse in the former.

[Super Dickmann]

I think Thrall having to step down to stop the world from literally ending would have been fine had he also not been shoved in player's faces so much. The Alliance has tons of neutral characters, having a Horde one go neutral to face such a massive threat isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially when the character is initially well liked by both sides and has never been portrayed as especially anti-Alliance, not out of principle.

The bad thing was the dodgy writing surrounding him appointing Garrosh and Cairne/Vol'jin immediately and predictably being at odds with the guy, and then of course Metzen deciding everyone loved his self-insert so much that the expansion's story almost had to be all about his midlife crisis.

Cenarius doing nothing to help the NEs, however, was beyond stupid both in Cata and BfA. But at least he had an excuse in the former.

Cenarius should never have come back from the dead. And if he did come back, he should have died in Legion, passing on his role to Malfurion. Then Malf defending his home as compared to his previous inaction would also be a callback to when Cenarius defended Ashenvale from the Warsong. Sadly, now he's alive, god knows for what reason and god knows why he doesn't help Malf, especially since every other night elf thing has come back in either War of Thorns or the Darkshore warfront.

The issue with making faction characters neutral isn't that they should be all rampant partisans so much as that whether someone claims to be neutral or doesn't, their themes are still identifiable with one faction, race or class anyway. Thrall is branded neutral and might be a peaceful dude, but he's also the orcish Messiah, the most recognizable shaman and the former Warchief of the Horde. He advances some variant of Horde themes that are out of place when Alliance does it. The same is the case with Legion with characters like Turalyon, Alleria and Khadgar.

I have far less issue with Wrathion, the Aspects, Celestials or the like, since they're inherently neutral and don't step on the turf of another story.

[Jastall]

Cenarius should never have come back from the dead. And if he did come back, he should have died in Legion, passing on his role to Malfurion. Then Malf defending his home as compared to his previous inaction would also be a callback to when Cenarius defended Ashenvale from the Warsong. Sadly, now he's alive, god knows for what reason and god knows why he doesn't help Malf, especially since every other night elf thing has come back in either War of Thorns or the Darkshore warfront.

The issue with making faction characters neutral isn't that they should be all rampant partisans so much as that whether someone claims to be neutral or doesn't, their themes are still identifiable with one faction, race or class anyway. Thrall is branded neutral and might be a peaceful dude, but he's also the orcish Messiah, the most recognizable shaman and the former Warchief of the Horde. He advances some variant of Horde themes that are out of place when Alliance does it. The same is the case with Legion with characters like Turalyon, Alleria and Khadgar.

I have far less issue with Wrathion, the Aspects, Celestials or the like, since they're inherently neutral and don't step on the turf of another story.

While I can understand (even if not completely share) your objections towards Turalyon and Thrall who had high political positions within their factions, Dadgar worked for me because his class is as neutral as it gets, his backstory until he joined the war is also fairly neutral as Medivh's apprentice and even his aesthetic is pretty unique, what with him referencing ravens more than the traditional white, blue and gold Alliance themes. He leans more Alliance than Horde, sure, but that's the thing, he only leans. His only real link to the factions is his friendship with the Sons of Lothar which isn't much different from, say, Ysera's friendship with the Night Elves.

Same for Alleria who has now moved beyond the elf archer chick stereotype somewhat and is wrapped up in a story that totally wouldn't be out of place in the Horde if this were TBC. That the Void Elves are Alliance instead of a neutral faction is gameplay convenience and a High Elf compromise nobody wanted more than anything else.

And even for Thrall, I'm OK with bending faction limits somewhat. I don't think there should be some hermetic barrier between the two, as in real life allegiances are fluid and times change, as Garrosh might say. The bad writing surrounding him was never in regards to his past, but in regards to what they did to him as the World Shaman/Aspect of the Earth/Savior of Azeroth bullshittery. Even amongst die-hard Alliance fans I saw few complaints when it came to the concept of taking quests from the former Warchief so long as he wasn't a dickhead to them which he wasn't. Whereas they balked at Vol'jin calling them names in 5.3.

[Grazrug]

While I can understand (even if not completely share) your objections towards Turalyon and Thrall who had high political positions within their factions, Dadgar worked for me because his class is as neutral as it gets, his backstory until he joined the war is also fairly neutral as Medivh's apprentice and even his aesthetic is pretty unique, what with him referencing ravens more than the traditional white, blue and gold Alliance themes. He leans more Alliance than Horde, sure, but that's the thing, he only leans. His only real link to the factions is his friendship with the Sons of Lothar which isn't much different from, say, Ysera's friendship with the Night Elves.

Same for Alleria who has now moved beyond the elf archer chick stereotype somewhat and is wrapped up in a story that totally wouldn't be out of place in the Horde if this were TBC. That the Void Elves are Alliance instead of a neutral faction is gameplay convenience and a High Elf compromise nobody wanted more than anything else.

And even for Thrall, I'm OK with bending faction limits somewhat. I don't think there should be some hermetic barrier between the two, as in real life allegiances are fluid and times change, as Garrosh might say. The bad writing surrounding him was never in regards to his past, but in regards to what they did to him as the World Shaman/Aspect of the Earth/Savior of Azeroth bullshittery. Even amongst die-hard Alliance fans I saw few complaints when it came to the concept of taking quests from the former Warchief so long as he wasn't a dickhead to them which he wasn't. Whereas they balked at Vol'jin calling them names in 5.3.

The alliance derp heroes calle Horde players out all the time while we stood 2 feet aways from them during the neutral content. So I can't bring up any symphathy here. Specifically Tyrande, Vereesa, Alleria and Jaina, when the voting of the council happened.

[Powerogue]

Can we please have orphanage blighting WQ next?

Stormwind had an occupied orphanage when Zul (still working with the Horde) lit it on fire. I'd say that counts.

[Super Dickmann]

While I can understand (even if not completely share) your objections towards Turalyon and Thrall who had high political positions within their factions, Dadgar worked for me because his class is as neutral as it gets, his backstory until he joined the war is also fairly neutral as Medivh's apprentice and even his aesthetic is pretty unique, what with him referencing ravens more than the traditional white, blue and gold Alliance themes. He leans more Alliance than Horde, sure, but that's the thing, he only leans. His only real link to the factions is his friendship with the Sons of Lothar which isn't much different from, say, Ysera's friendship with the Night Elves.

I bring him up before, but I actually like Khadgar too. The issue is he was the cherry on top of an expansion that was already very heavy on Horde having to take quests from Alliance characters and get involved in Alliance stories, capping off an expansion where we executed the entire WC2 Horde cast, the ones tons of our locations are named for and who have the same historical weight to the faction that Khadgar has to the Alliance. Ysera well enough, but helping Tyrande find her husband, protecting the Temple of Elune and so on obviously have leagues more weight to an Alliance and more specifically a night elf player than to a Horde one. As for his Sons of Lothar ties being small, that's true, which I'm actually iffy about. For all that it's teased, we never do actually see him, Turalyon and Alleria really team up, which is a damn shame. At least against the Legion, since I agree with their call not to get him involved in the faction war.

Turalyon and Alleria are Alliance characters and I'm glad Blizzard didn't forget this when deciding their BFA roles, even if they've bizzarely made Alleria hand out fucking mission table upgrades in an expansion where her sister is the main antagonist.

The issue with Thrall and Legion in general is the overexposure of their roles as much as it is the theme. Team-ups between the factions are here and there, but the specific should come before the general. No matter how well meaning Thrall was, there were still tons of complaints from Alliance for having to do quests for him and rightly so, especially when we were being his therapists and giving him relationship counseling, then when we stalled Deathwing so he could land the killshot.

In turn, the Alliance focus in the Legion cast robbed it of good drama and diminished individual storylines. I shit on Thrall a lot, but having him confront Gul'dan would've been great, given how the Horde he tried to make is a rebuttal to Gul'dan's initial creation. Ditto with KJ. Or how Saurfang opts to kill himself on a side mission rather than confronting the group at who's behest he did his massacres, building him up to his BFA role. Even after all the buildup, who is Khadgar to Gul'dan except a strong enemy?

[tripleh]

Oh boy, there are so many things wrong in this post it's sort of baffling.

Sylvanas is nothing like Hitler.
-He was a charismatic polititian, who believed a certain race to be superior to everyone else, while claiming that another had been responsible for all the wrongs the nation had sustained. He tapped into already existing views and acted on them. His plans have been heavily inspired by the American mentality Manifest Destiny, which he greatly admired and sought to replicate, with slavs n such, in place of the native americans.

-Sylvanas on the other hand is a general first and her every move is scrutinised carefully. Her Horde helps it's own and everyone gets a chance to prove that they can work, in it's infrastructure. Even San'layn and Dreadlord get the chance to prove it either way. She has solid strategic reasoning to do every thing you can name. And her spite toward human kingdoms is rooted, in the humans trying to exterminate the forsaken ever since they were a thing.

But hey, why do actual research, when you can go to the SJW buzzword dictionary and devalue terms for grave horrendous things.

It's there shes a female version. Stop trying to deny it only to make yourself feel better about being horde or forsaken.

[Grazrug]

I bring him up before, but I actually like Khadgar too. The issue is he was the cherry on top of an expansion that was already very heavy on Horde having to take quests from Alliance characters and get involved in Alliance stories, capping off an expansion where we executed the entire WC2 Horde cast, the ones tons of our locations are named for and who have the same historical weight to the faction that Khadgar has to the Alliance. Ysera well enough, but helping Tyrande find her husband, protecting the Temple of Elune and so on obviously have leagues more weight to an Alliance and more specifically a night elf player than to a Horde one. As for his Sons of Lothar ties being small, that's true, which I'm actually iffy about. For all that it's teased, we never do actually see him, Turalyon and Alleria really team up, which is a damn shame. At least against the Legion, since I agree with their call not to get him involved in the faction war.

Turalyon and Alleria are Alliance characters and I'm glad Blizzard didn't forget this when deciding their BFA roles, even if they've bizzarely made Alleria hand out fucking mission table upgrades in an expansion where her sister is the main antagonist.

The issue with Thrall and Legion in general is the overexposure of their roles as much as it is the theme. Team-ups between the factions are here and there, but the specific should come before the general. No matter how well meaning Thrall was, there were still tons of complaints from Alliance for having to do quests for him and rightly so, especially when we were being his therapists and giving him relationship counseling, then when we stalled Deathwing so he could land the killshot.

In turn, the Alliance focus in the Legion cast robbed it of good drama and diminished individual storylines. I shit on Thrall a lot, but having him confront Gul'dan would've been great, given how the Horde he tried to make is a rebuttal to Gul'dan's initial creation. Ditto with KJ. Or how Saurfang opts to kill himself on a side mission rather than confronting the group at who's behest he did his massacres, building him up to his BFA role. Even after all the buildup, who is Khadgar to Gul'dan except a strong enemy?

Thrall is one of the few non super evil dudes, we eventually have to kill in a raid(not him obviously unlike Garrosh or Sylvanas), on our team. Shitting on him won't do anything good to our own cause.

- - - Updated - - -

It's there shes a female version. Stop trying to deny it only to make yourself feel better about being horde or forsaken.

She is not Hitler and you should stop comparing characters or even players to Nazis.

[tripleh]

Thrall is one of the few non super evil dudes, we eventually have to kill in a raid(not him obviously unlike Garrosh or Sylvanas), on our team. Shitting on him won't do anything good to our own cause.

- - - Updated - - -



She is not Hitler and you should stop comparing characters to Nazis.

The writers are doing that part on there own, you can thank Steve Danuser and Alex.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Yeah! It's cause the Horde are bad! It's not because Blizzard is full of shitty, incompetent writers and game designers! It's cause the Horde is inherently evilz, as are 100% of the people playing Horde characters!

You guys are so smart and stuff!!!

[Synros]

and the Alliance butchers a bunch of desert foxes who only agreed to carry goods for the Horde cause of the pay packet.

Ah yes, classic 'Whataboutisms'....

[Jastall]

I bring him up before, but I actually like Khadgar too. The issue is he was the cherry on top of an expansion that was already very heavy on Horde having to take quests from Alliance characters and get involved in Alliance stories, capping off an expansion where we executed the entire WC2 Horde cast, the ones tons of our locations are named for and who have the same historical weight to the faction that Khadgar has to the Alliance. Ysera well enough, but helping Tyrande find her husband, protecting the Temple of Elune and so on obviously have leagues more weight to an Alliance and more specifically a night elf player than to a Horde one. As for his Sons of Lothar ties being small, that's true, which I'm actually iffy about. For all that it's teased, we never do actually see him, Turalyon and Alleria really team up, which is a damn shame. At least against the Legion, since I agree with their call not to get him involved in the faction war.

Turalyon and Alleria are Alliance characters and I'm glad Blizzard didn't forget this when deciding their BFA roles, even if they've bizzarely made Alleria hand out fucking mission table upgrades in an expansion where her sister is the main antagonist.

The issue with Thrall and Legion in general is the overexposure of their roles as much as it is the theme. Team-ups between the factions are here and there, but the specific should come before the general. No matter how well meaning Thrall was, there were still tons of complaints from Alliance for having to do quests for him and rightly so, especially when we were being his therapists and giving him relationship counseling, then when we stalled Deathwing so he could land the killshot.

In turn, the Alliance focus in the Legion cast robbed it of good drama and diminished individual storylines. I shit on Thrall a lot, but having him confront Gul'dan would've been great, given how the Horde he tried to make is a rebuttal to Gul'dan's initial creation. Ditto with KJ. Or how Saurfang opts to kill himself on a side mission rather than confronting the group at who's behest he did his massacres, building him up to his BFA role. Even after all the buildup, who is Khadgar to Gul'dan except a strong enemy?

Oh, you won't hear me defend the non-existence of the Horde in Legion, Blizzard definitely dropped the ball here. There were a dozen potential stories to tell, especially in 7.2, and they decided to forgo them all in favor of Class Hall stuff and the Legionfall campaign which was a joke.

And hell, even before that, they had Gul'dan and did close to nothing with him. The Horde has a beef with him as a matter of course, the Alliance now hates him because he killed their best, most popular character in years and then... nothing. He vanishes until his boss fight. It's a great fight, mind you, but it's still weird to not have news of him at all unless you're a Destro Lock.

IMO Thrall should have died on the Broken Shore instead of Vol'jin. His character was done anyway, it creates the equalizer to Varian's death that Blizzard needs to not have their HQ burned down, they don't have to create endless contrivances as to why a troll watched over by the loa of death goes down to a random mook, and it means Vol'jin lives which already makes BfA tons more palatable when Blizzard has to work with a Warchief that they can't turn into a cartoon villain.

[Satelliteyears0o]

So, Boralus, Horde invasion: we attack hospital and kill head mistveawer.

Another glorious honorful victory for mistaken underdog honorable noble savage morally grey faction! I even got praised by our Light-loving paladin lady that turned from her evil ways back in TBC.

Can we please have orphanage blighting WQ next?
Just think of the glory of eliminating dozens of future "they will conquer us" Alliance soldiers at once!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6O-vBVCbg0

lol face it, the horde are just arse-holes.

[sighy]

I think Thrall having to step down to stop the world from literally ending would have been fine had he also not been shoved in player's faces so much. The Alliance has tons of neutral characters, having a Horde one go neutral to face such a massive threat isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially when the character is initially well liked by both sides and has never been portrayed as especially anti-Alliance, not out of principle.

The bad thing was the dodgy writing surrounding him appointing Garrosh and Cairne/Vol'jin immediately and predictably being at odds with the guy, and then of course Metzen deciding everyone loved his self-insert so much that the expansion's story almost had to be all about his midlife crisis.

Cenarius doing nothing to help the NEs, however, was beyond stupid both in Cata and BfA. But at least he had an excuse in the former.

Well Cenarius is dead, for both occasions

- - - Updated - - -

It's there shes a female version. Stop trying to deny it only to make yourself feel better about being horde or forsaken.

IF you knew something about Hitler or Natzis or Forsaken or Sylvanas you would know just how wrong you were. She shares none of the ideology and none of the shit done by them.

But labels are cool in your opinion i suppose...

- - - Updated - - -

The writers are doing that part on there own, you can thank Steve Danuser and Alex.

Simularites, in total.... an occasional german name