How would you feel if Blizzard completely abandoned the "Trinity" system...?

[Claymore]

Right now, the game consists of three roles, and only three:

Tank, Healer, and DPS.

They come in different flavors, but it is universally accepted that if you choose a role, you will (or should) be able to fill said role in any level of content.

However, when you look back at some of the old Talent-trees -- PARTICULARLY the Death Knight talent-trees when Wrath first launched, before dual-spec was added -- you can see a lot of instances where it was possible to become a "hybrid". Death Knights were seemingly designed to be hybrids from the get go, and it was almost impossible *not* to at least be a competent off-tank.

Now, hybrids generally fell into one of two camps; either they were mediocre at everything, or they were considered stupidly overpowered (again, look no further than the DK during Wrath).

But...

What if the game were designed differently?

Instead of the "Trinity" of Tank, Healer, and DPS, every character was instead designed to be totally self-sufficient? Where "aggro" was thrown by the wayside, and every players was expected to kill their own mobs and take care of themselves?

Now, I'm not suggested "Blizzard should totally do that!". I'm simply saying, maybe it warrants some consideration, even as a simple "what if" conversation. How differently might the game play? What might raids or "boss encounters" look like? I'm not even asking "do you think it would be better or worse" -- just, how do you think such a system would feel?

Personally... I'm not confident it would appeal to the remaining player-base, but I do kind of dig the idea. As a Death Knight, there's something inherently kind of frustrating about the idea that in PvE, I have no more survivability or healing than a Rogue. If I pull aggro (or *pulled* aggro; I just let my sub lapse), a boss is going to one- or two-shot me, regardless of class.

But if the game were designed maybe a bit more like Diablo 3, where you aren't facing "bosses" so much as "hordes of enemies"... that's something I think is really cool to think about. Instead of choosing "Tank, Healer, or DPS", you might be choosing between things like "Single-target, AoE, or Survivability", giving players their own unique little niches. Maybe I could choose between something like the classic Blood DK, where I'm cleaving and siphoning blood from enemies to regain health, versus being more of a pure Necromancer, where every enemy's corpse could be resurrected as a temporary skeletal minion, giving me a small army in the heat of battle.

Or my Warrior, instead of being "Prot-spec", maybe it would return to the more Greco-Roman/Spartan themed "Gladiator" character, in which your shield is used as a weapon, allowing you to physically push enemies around into positions or set them up to take increased damage from other players. Or just get a big two-hander and Cleave like your name is Saurfang (extra points if there were a physics engine to send enemies' bodies flying). Or as a Mage, finally unleashing a full spectacle of magic, where Blizzard unleashes an actual *BLIZZARD* around you, or Flamestrike would darken the immediate enemy right before striking.

I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've found I just don't really enjoy "raiding" anymore, and frankly, I really haven't since... probably Mists of Pandaria. I prefer just jumping in to queue up for short, quick content, and honestly, Diablo 3 is one of my favorite games for just that reason. Admittedly, I can see where it might be difficult to transition certain Classes or talent-trees to being more self-sufficient (that, or make them more supportive roles, buffing allies or debuffing enemies instead of just "healing"), but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

As I said, I just allowed my sub to lapse, so I may have a skewed perception of the game now. It really just *feels* like the game and the community is dying, though. And changing things up so dramatically, where each player is a force unto themselves, just seems like it would reinvigorate the game, at least for me.

Just my two cents, though.

[hynx]

sounds like you want an mmo that uses DnD like mechanics, not unlike old school games, neverwinter nights 1 or 2 (3e or 3.5e) from back in the day. the Neverwinter MMO is a bastardisation of what was once a great DnD franchise.

[Kul Tiras]

Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2, works great in Destiny 2, works great in ESO, works great in TOR, worked great in Firefall, the list goes on.

Trinity system is for lazy tunnel vision players who can only perform one type of task, except maybe tanks before threat was dumbed down to the power infinity. PVEers usually love trinity, because it requires low personal skill.

When you don't have a dedicated role, and everyone has personal responsibility for multiple roles, you feel much more engaged in every fight, you have to be much more skilled personally which makes fighting more rewarding and the game feels much more rewarding overall.

No matter how many epics they shove in your face and how high your DPS scores on recount, it will never be as rewarding as feeling you're a skilled player who can deal with any situation, be it threat, self-preservation and damage dealing.

Only insects specialize, men should be able to do any task.

[Soon-TM]

It's a neat idea. But it would require an entirely different approach to PvE (and also PvP, to an extent) from Blizzard. I don't think that the current crop of devs is particularly interested in such a fundamental revamp, or that they're even able to pull it off. After all, they are only good at pruning and trinity-based raids.

[TheVaryag]

Right now, the game consists of three roles, and only three:

Tank, Healer, and DPS.

They come in different flavors, but it is universally accepted that if you choose a role, you will (or should) be able to fill said role in any level of content.

However, when you look back at some of the old Talent-trees -- PARTICULARLY the Death Knight talent-trees when Wrath first launched, before dual-spec was added -- you can see a lot of instances where it was possible to become a "hybrid". Death Knights were seemingly designed to be hybrids from the get go, and it was almost impossible *not* to at least be a competent off-tank.

Now, hybrids generally fell into one of two camps; either they were mediocre at everything, or they were considered stupidly overpowered (again, look no further than the DK during Wrath).

But...

What if the game were designed differently?

Instead of the "Trinity" of Tank, Healer, and DPS, every character was instead designed to be totally self-sufficient? Where "aggro" was thrown by the wayside, and every players was expected to kill their own mobs and take care of themselves?

Now, I'm not suggested "Blizzard should totally do that!". I'm simply saying, maybe it warrants some consideration, even as a simple "what if" conversation. How differently might the game play? What might raids or "boss encounters" look like? I'm not even asking "do you think it would be better or worse" -- just, how do you think such a system would feel?

Personally... I'm not confident it would appeal to the remaining player-base, but I do kind of dig the idea. As a Death Knight, there's something inherently kind of frustrating about the idea that in PvE, I have no more survivability or healing than a Rogue. If I pull aggro (or *pulled* aggro; I just let my sub lapse), a boss is going to one- or two-shot me, regardless of class.

But if the game were designed maybe a bit more like Diablo 3, where you aren't facing "bosses" so much as "hordes of enemies"... that's something I think is really cool to think about. Instead of choosing "Tank, Healer, or DPS", you might be choosing between things like "Single-target, AoE, or Survivability", giving players their own unique little niches. Maybe I could choose between something like the classic Blood DK, where I'm cleaving and siphoning blood from enemies to regain health, versus being more of a pure Necromancer, where every enemy's corpse could be resurrected as a temporary skeletal minion, giving me a small army in the heat of battle.

Or my Warrior, instead of being "Prot-spec", maybe it would return to the more Greco-Roman/Spartan themed "Gladiator" character, in which your shield is used as a weapon, allowing you to physically push enemies around into positions or set them up to take increased damage from other players. Or just get a big two-hander and Cleave like your name is Saurfang (extra points if there were a physics engine to send enemies' bodies flying). Or as a Mage, finally unleashing a full spectacle of magic, where Blizzard unleashes an actual *BLIZZARD* around you, or Flamestrike would darken the immediate enemy right before striking.

I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've found I just don't really enjoy "raiding" anymore, and frankly, I really haven't since... probably Mists of Pandaria. I prefer just jumping in to queue up for short, quick content, and honestly, Diablo 3 is one of my favorite games for just that reason. Admittedly, I can see where it might be difficult to transition certain Classes or talent-trees to being more self-sufficient (that, or make them more supportive roles, buffing allies or debuffing enemies instead of just "healing"), but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

As I said, I just allowed my sub to lapse, so I may have a skewed perception of the game now. It really just *feels* like the game and the community is dying, though. And changing things up so dramatically, where each player is a force unto themselves, just seems like it would reinvigorate the game, at least for me.

Just my two cents, though.

Short and simple?

Not an MMORPG, and definitely not World of Warcraft anymore.

Tank.DPS.Healer Is the essence of an RPG and WoW, that people for the past 8 or so years don't know how to do It properly because the game not only doesn't teach or encourage you to do so Isn't a reason to get away with the system.

Stop encouraging devs to do such things, they already took out tier sets, traditional gear progression, proper stats on our characters since Legion, utility abilities, pvp customization and high end gear, first aid removed as a secondary proffesion.... and added more annoying, grindier and less Interesting ways of progression like Artifact Power, Artifact Knowledge, Mythic+, Warfronts, Island Expeditions, Azerite Power & Azerite Armors, Artifact Weapons, Mythic raid difficulty and that's only the start on both positives and negatives.

It's clear you're a Diablo 3 fan, because these Diablo 3 esk features that we've got from one half of the wow development team who -were- Diablo devs are NOT fitting for WoW and should not be encouraged by them. Diablo 3 Is a fun game I'm sure, but It's features, mechanics and grindy repetative treadmill doesn't belong Into WoW. Someone forgot to tell those devs that, and now look how much quicker WoW Is fudging up since those kind of devs came to us in 2014 (Warlords of Dreanor)

[Kokolums]

Obviously you never played BfA but Blizzard JUST added a new game mode where instead of tank healer dps you kinda fight your own mobs and run around. They are called Island Expeditions and they are terrible.

But yah literally you just described IEs.

IEs are D3 rifts and rifts are total cancer. The rest of the game is pretty good but you get to rifts and it just feels mindless. I even said theyd probably add rifts to wow and itd be very bad and they did and it is.

[Florida Man]

I would expand it to include a mandatory “support” role, which buffs and debuffs.

Other than that, the trinity system is fun. Non trinity is also fun. Thank god they have different games to chose from.

For WoW, I like it just fine the way it is.

[PenguinChan]

I'd more than likely completely abandon retail if Blizzard decided to remove the specialties. Part of the reason I like WoW - and games like it, is that you have a role. Many MMORPGs still take the trinity system to some degree and implement it in 'non trinity' MMOs. GW2 has a lite-trinity system, as it definitely requires supports and DPS in their content, let alone someone able to tank heavy hits or draw aggro isn't uncommon. ESO has a trinity system, so that is moot - SWTOR does as well, and many countless MMORPGs have it.

There aren't a lot of MMORPGs without it or without inspiration from it, because it puts value into something you're specializing in. Blizzard could potentially add more tanks and healer specs in the future to already created classes, but that's still part of the trinity. What WOULD be a surprise, and something I think any MMORPG fan wouldn't mind is a support role akin to RIFT. I'd love to see that, however slim it may be.

[Florida Man]

Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2, works great in Destiny 2, works great in ESO, works great in TOR, worked great in Firefall, the list goes on.

Trinity system is for lazy tunnel vision players who can only perform one type of task, except maybe tanks before threat was dumbed down to the power infinity. PVEers usually love trinity, because it requires low personal skill.

When you don't have a dedicated role, and everyone has personal responsibility for multiple roles, you feel much more engaged in every fight, you have to be much more skilled personally which makes fighting more rewarding and the game feels much more rewarding overall.

No matter how many epics they shove in your face and how high your DPS scores on recount, it will never be as rewarding as feeling you're a skilled player who can deal with any situation, be it threat, self-preservation and damage dealing.

Only insects specialize, men should be able to do any task.

Works great in ESO? I’m specifically asked to heal for people the moment I log in.

[Kul Tiras]

Works great in ESO? I’m specifically asked to heal for people the moment I log in.

Cut ties with those weaklings and feed their souls to the Daedra princes.

[Swalload]

It would be so different that it's hard to tell how it would be. Because not only would role changes but also every classes. Are mobs in dungeons hitting harder? Do we need to add many defensives/heals to every classes? How do we manage that in PvP?

It would just not be WoW, it would be another game. I would be fine with a different game working like that, but not fine with WoW not being WoW.

[Sting]

Bad idea, I didn't like it in gw2.

[Cathfaern]

Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2, works great in Destiny 2, works great in ESO, works great in TOR, worked great in Firefall, the list goes on.

GW2 went back to the trinity for high end pve instanced content.

[spalernTJ]

The Trinity is a core component in any MMORPG, at the very least, the ones that focus on PvE, why? Because when you think "Heroic group that defeats large enemies." What comes to mind? Teamwork. People comparing dick sizes does not promote teamwork, which is what makes the Trinity a fine system in general. What I would suggest though, is expanding on the trinity. Instead of "Every man for himself" or the 3 set roles, I would personally love seeing more diversity in playstyles. Buffers / Supports come to mind. Classes designed to do less DPS, but buff the damage of others by small margins. The Paladin aura stuff is an extremely good example of this. An Aura that increases a stat by a static amount, spread out between everyone in your group. This means its not useless in smaller groups, and still beneficial in larger ones.

I'm going to pull in an example of a DPS class from FF XIV: The bard. The Bard class does less DPS by themselves. There are much stronger DPS classes, who can pull bigger numbers, however, the bard provides a lot of buffs and utility, along with their DPS, and it is all incorporate into their own rotation. They have 3 songs, each lasting 30 seconds. Basically just a buff for themselves, each reacting differently to your dots, where it changes up though, is that whenever a song is playing, the entire raid team is buffed with extra crit chance. You can also activate a second Cooldown for your team while a song is playing, which increases hit rate. They also have access to an AoE mana and Energy replenish, which makes them big contenders for a spot on the raid team, even if their DPS isn't as high.

The strongest DPS' in terms of raw damage, brings low to no utility. Yet, the classes are balanced enough to allow raid teams to use any class, even though there will always be a meta team, as long as numbers can be crunched, the playerbase will always find the optimal route.

In World of Warcraft, I see plenty of opportunities for support DPS to become a thing. Warlocks cursing enemies while DPSing, making them take more damage, increase crit chance when hit, increasing the damage of people who hit them etcetera. A hunter that creates weakspots, or uses gadgets / bombs that react to other player damage. Mages buffing tanks with arcane fortitude and replenish mana for the healers. Even tiny amounts can make a big difference.

[Onikaroshi]

That's not a paradigm shift you pull this late in the game. People who play wow, play it because it's wow, that include the trinity, raids, dungeons, the cartoonish look, etc etc you change something core and you change the game into something it's not.

It'd be like turning wow into an action MMO like Tera. People play it cause it's hotkey tab target.

[Dhrizzle]

I think it would be good if classes had abilities so the trinity would be optimal but if tanks or healers are missing DPS can have a defensive mode/self-healing/CC/pass aggro at the expense of encounters taking longer. It would probably only work for 5-mans and maybe LFR but could be worth a try. Personally I'd use such a system to remove the insta-teleport queues for heroic dungeons - players would go to the dungeon entrance and the match-maker throws together whatever combo it can get in ~30 seconds, maybe even scaling down the dungeon difficulty if not enough players are available.

[sam86]

Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2

isn't dungeon system in GW is like private servers of wow, u keep wiping out at boss that lose hp waiting until u finally kill him ? I won't consider that ever 'great'

[Mellrod]

sounds like you want an mmo that uses DnD like mechanics, not unlike old school games, neverwinter nights 1 or 2 (3e or 3.5e) from back in the day. the Neverwinter MMO is a bastardisation of what was once a great DnD franchise.

In that case I feel like getting a bunch of friends together to play D&D over Roll20 would make for a better 'MMO'

[Shadowsgrace]

Right now, the game consists of three roles, and only three:

Tank, Healer, and DPS.

They come in different flavors, but it is universally accepted that if you choose a role, you will (or should) be able to fill said role in any level of content.

However, when you look back at some of the old Talent-trees -- PARTICULARLY the Death Knight talent-trees when Wrath first launched, before dual-spec was added -- you can see a lot of instances where it was possible to become a "hybrid". Death Knights were seemingly designed to be hybrids from the get go, and it was almost impossible *not* to at least be a competent off-tank.

Now, hybrids generally fell into one of two camps; either they were mediocre at everything, or they were considered stupidly overpowered (again, look no further than the DK during Wrath).

But...

What if the game were designed differently?

Instead of the "Trinity" of Tank, Healer, and DPS, every character was instead designed to be totally self-sufficient? Where "aggro" was thrown by the wayside, and every players was expected to kill their own mobs and take care of themselves?

Now, I'm not suggested "Blizzard should totally do that!". I'm simply saying, maybe it warrants some consideration, even as a simple "what if" conversation. How differently might the game play? What might raids or "boss encounters" look like? I'm not even asking "do you think it would be better or worse" -- just, how do you think such a system would feel?

Personally... I'm not confident it would appeal to the remaining player-base, but I do kind of dig the idea. As a Death Knight, there's something inherently kind of frustrating about the idea that in PvE, I have no more survivability or healing than a Rogue. If I pull aggro (or *pulled* aggro; I just let my sub lapse), a boss is going to one- or two-shot me, regardless of class.

But if the game were designed maybe a bit more like Diablo 3, where you aren't facing "bosses" so much as "hordes of enemies"... that's something I think is really cool to think about. Instead of choosing "Tank, Healer, or DPS", you might be choosing between things like "Single-target, AoE, or Survivability", giving players their own unique little niches. Maybe I could choose between something like the classic Blood DK, where I'm cleaving and siphoning blood from enemies to regain health, versus being more of a pure Necromancer, where every enemy's corpse could be resurrected as a temporary skeletal minion, giving me a small army in the heat of battle.

Or my Warrior, instead of being "Prot-spec", maybe it would return to the more Greco-Roman/Spartan themed "Gladiator" character, in which your shield is used as a weapon, allowing you to physically push enemies around into positions or set them up to take increased damage from other players. Or just get a big two-hander and Cleave like your name is Saurfang (extra points if there were a physics engine to send enemies' bodies flying). Or as a Mage, finally unleashing a full spectacle of magic, where Blizzard unleashes an actual *BLIZZARD* around you, or Flamestrike would darken the immediate enemy right before striking.

I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've found I just don't really enjoy "raiding" anymore, and frankly, I really haven't since... probably Mists of Pandaria. I prefer just jumping in to queue up for short, quick content, and honestly, Diablo 3 is one of my favorite games for just that reason. Admittedly, I can see where it might be difficult to transition certain Classes or talent-trees to being more self-sufficient (that, or make them more supportive roles, buffing allies or debuffing enemies instead of just "healing"), but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

As I said, I just allowed my sub to lapse, so I may have a skewed perception of the game now. It really just *feels* like the game and the community is dying, though. And changing things up so dramatically, where each player is a force unto themselves, just seems like it would reinvigorate the game, at least for me.

Just my two cents, though.

There was a "Gladiator Spec" in WoD and only WoD. It used sword and board, hard to balance, and DPS warriors were competing against Tanks for gear. It was simply meant as a way an "off tank" could DPS in those boss fights that only ended up needing one tank. But many Purely DPS warriors chose this as there "go to spec" but refused to tank when needed, and is why it was instantly removed in Legion.

[Twdft]

What's good about the trinity is that it forces people to stay together in dungeons because noone gets far alone. I've played Dungeons and Dragons Online and dungeons were no fun at all because as soon as one guy starts to wander off that's it. They will inevitably die because going it alone, rezz, don't find their way back to the group, others will not wait so if you skipped some mobs the laggard will die again and after 15 minutes everyone is doing their own thing. A shitshow, really.