[Megathread] Star Citizen

[stellvia]

It's not about speed at this point. It's about feature creep and presenting a quality product. Can you honestly say you believe that a game with new features constantly announced, few of which are ever finished, is going to release a quality product anytime this century ? Even companies with greater knowledge and resources than him know what a bad idea it is to do this.
He needs a manager to tell him when enough is enough. When to say we've got a complete package here.

2014 wants their talking points back. They cut off stretch goals like 4 years ago and already said back then that some of them would have to wait until after release to be finished. Chris brother has also done a good job of reigning him in since the early days, I haven't seen much of his usual hot air in around 1.5-2 years now. (I also think the sheer gravity of the crowdfunding has forced him to buckle down in the BS: It's one thing to talk big when you're got like $75M, but as the numbers went to 100, 125, 150...200. I think even he knows he has to deliver or his career and reputation are in deep shit.)

tldr: There's enough legitimate criticism to go around without fabricating shit.

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Also you DON'T fucking know if it will be a big advantage or not. Stop trying to speak for that company. All we see right now is pay 2 win ships.

Exactly. Neither do you. So calm the fuck down and save your righteous indignation for beta when we have a full vertical slice of all the systems to play with.

[Malibutomi]

This game would probably come out in 2019. If Chris Roberts had an actual boss. The guy can't manage for shit.

[Eleccybubb]

Do not pretend to tell me what would and would not affect my fun. I enjoy commerce, trading, Auction Houses and the like. If some fuckwit is getting a huge advantage because they paid real money to win in the game and I'm getting shafted because I wanted to earn my stuff in game and now I'm behind the economy game. Fuck that. That is pay 2 win.

Also you DON'T fucking know if it will be a big advantage or not. Stop trying to speak for that company. All we see right now is pay 2 win ships.

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Seems to be a common theme. People sure do seem to know a lot about a game that isn't released and how this shit will all work is finalized and most of them love to handwave shit away. All I know is there is a massive fucking cash shop to buy ships.

Imagine if Blizzard sold power advantages for live on a Beta for WoW......

Bet people would be all over them for it.

But yeah. It is kind of meh to see someone who pays their way to win. Definitely affects my enjoyment a little admittedly when I come in a game day 1 and see someone in the best/powerful stuff just because they opened their wallet a bit.

P2W/P2A is crap. Putting it in an Alpha stage of a game is even crappier and scummy.

As for handwaving what do you expect? People gotta defend the product they've probably sunk hours/lots of money into under the guise of "supporting the game as it develops into an epic/groundbreaking game" despite the fact the majority of the tech/systems it uses are just improved stuff of things that have existing in games for years.

[MrAnderson]

It's not about speed at this point. It's about feature creep and presenting a quality product. Can you honestly say you believe that a game with new features constantly announced, few of which are ever finished, is going to release a quality product anytime this century ? Even companies with greater knowledge and resources than him know what a bad idea it is to do this.

This is exactly what happened with some of his last games. He doesn't know when to say I've got a good product here. let's refine the features we do have and get it ready for launch. He lacks the ability. People like this are great idea people, they are not great managers.

He needs a manager to tell him when enough is enough. When to say we've got a complete package here. The way Roberts designs is like releasing all 3 borderlands as one insanely long, over complicated, story ridden, campaign. It's great in theory having all that content prequel, original, and sequel as one long campaign. But it doesn't make sense, it would cost WAY more than a game should, and would be MORE prone to bugs / glitches / crashes than a game that someone actually took time to refine.

Again that's a misconception, there's no "new features constantly announced" as stretch goals stoped at the 65$million mark. Chris Roberts developed and published it's first game when back in 1980, he was 12 years back then. You can't really fault him for being ambitious and perfectionist when it's exactly what's expected from him by it's backers.

[Kyanion]

Exactly. Neither do you. So calm the fuck down and save your righteous indignation for beta when we have a full vertical slice of all the systems to play with.

What I do know is that you can spend real life money to buy in game ships. That is what we do know. If you think there is no advantage to be had...I don't know what to tell you besides you are being clueless.

[bloodwulf]

What I do know is that you can spend real life money to buy in game ships. That is what we do know. If you think there is no advantage to be had...I don't know what to tell you besides you are being clueless.

On top of buy ships, you could buy land plots as well. Even if you can earn credits in game to buy the land plots, the people that paid real money to skip that process have a distinct advantage over people who did not spend real money (real money skips time to earn credits). All these people are defending the game religiously and not accepting any bit of criticism. They are stuck with a sunk cost fallacy, they have to defend their investments even though people are pointing out obvious flaws with it. They can not accept that money they put in the game may be money wasted on a potential dumpster fire.
@Malibutomi
Not fair to compare Chris Roberts to Kojima, one is a massively respected figure in the industry, and the other is comparable to Peter Molyneux.

[Kyanion]

On top of buy ships, you could buy land plots as well. Even if you can earn credits in game to buy the land plots, the people that paid real money to skip that process have a distinct advantage over people who did not spend real money (real money skips time to earn credits). All these people are defending the game religiously and not accepting any bit of criticism. They are stuck with a sunk cost fallacy, they have to defend their investments even though people are pointing out obvious flaws with it. They can not accept that money they put in the game may be money wasted on a potential dumpster fire.

Even for people that haven't put money into the game for them to defend such bullshit practices is really confusing. They act like paying money is not an advantage or that 'player skill' is the great equalizer. Player skill is important but in an even playing field of skill the person who plunked down real money is ahead. And when it comes to land plots/economy there is no question who is ahead. It is bullshit. It WILL be a factor as to why some people will never touch the game. I know I won't because of p2w bs.

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Not fair to compare Chris Roberts to Kojima, one is a massively respected figure in the industry, and the other is comparable to Peter Molyneux.

Not fair to compare CIG to any AAA company that has put out a game but they love to do THAT too.

[bloodwulf]

Even for people that haven't put money into the game for them to defend such bullshit practices is really confusing. They act like paying money is not an advantage or that 'player skill' is the great equalizer. Player skill is important but in an even playing field of skill the person who plunked down real money is ahead. And when it comes to land plots/economy there is no question who is ahead. It is bullshit. It WILL be a factor as to why some people will never touch the game. I know I won't because of p2w bs.

The most id accept in a Real Money shop in a Space sim is Cosmetics. Pilot/Ship skins, Lighting effects, home interiors etc. Anything you can buy that otherwise bypasses any amount of effort put in by the player is unacceptable. You are going to create a game where the economy is player driven, and every coexists, yet whales can save credits by buying larger ships. It doesn't matter how many people it takes to crew it, if Group A has 5 people and they buy a ship with real money, and Group B has 5 people and they have to earn the credits to buy it, Group A is literally at an advantage that was purchased with dollars, end of story, enough said.

[MrAnderson]

I dont get this constant crying about crowdfunded tittles selling assets in advance to fund development.

Probably comes from the same gamers who cry about the lack of inovation of the mmorpg genre.

How hard is it to understand that It's the only way these projects can even have a chance to exist. Selling ships have been there from the start. Dont like it fine. Go back to your monthly fee theme park ride. It's all good, no game or company pleases everyone.

Bitching about the wind and water being cold when you keep going to the same scotish beach during the winter seems the smart thing to do alright.

[Eleccybubb]

Comparing CR to Kojima? HAHAHAHHA. Sorry but that is just downright adorable and desperate.

Did Mr Roberts give you the inspiration for that when he tried to compare his company to the likes of Blizzard?

[bloodwulf]

I dont get this constant crying about crowdfunded tittles selling assets in advance to fund development.

Probably comes from the same gamers who cry about the lack of inovation of the mmorpg genre.

How hard is it to understand that It's the only way these projects can even have a chance to exist. Selling ships have been there from the start. Dont like it fine. Go back to your monthly fee theme park ride. It's all good, no game or company pleases everyone.

Bitching about the wind and water being cold when you keep going to the same scotish beach during the winter seems the smart thing to do alright.

So you admit PAY TO WIN is fine, as long as it was in the game at the beginning. K. Sorry some of us thought a space sim should start on equal footing for everyone. They could of funded with cosmetics and no gameplay impacting rewards, but instead, they sell you P2W features before release, and then launch it without them so RS can claim the game launched without any P2W MTX.

[Dhrizzle]

Point is that two evenly matched players in terms of skill the one at the advantage is the one that PAID for a better ship. You cannot argue this and claim it is fair. We don't know how negative effects and blah blah blah works and it does not really matter. The perception is that you can pay to buy better starting equipment because you are willing to plunk down cash when the other player is not.

You can argue the other side until you are blue in the face but trying to use 'player skill' as the 'huge factor' does not mean much. What if said rich player in a larger ship has a smaller ship with him and just hops into that and blasts you into atoms. Skill right? Or is it because he paid for a better ship and just does more damage than you.

Basically it's about as pay-to-win as buying a max-level character in WoW, there's nothing you can buy that you couldn't get by playing the game. Personally I really don't care. I'm used to people doing better than me in games because they have the cash to buy a better set-up, people doing better in games because they don't have to work or see to other responsibilities - the fact people can give game developers money for an advantage just makes me shrug. Especially in a game like Star Citizen which isn't so much about "winning" as having the experience of being a space pilot.

[bloodwulf]

Basically it's about as pay-to-win as buying a max-level character in WoW, there's nothing you can buy that you couldn't get by playing the game. Personally I really don't care. I'm used to people doing better than me in games because they have the cash to buy a better set-up, people doing better in games because they don't have to work or see to other responsibilities - the fact people can give game developers money for an advantage just makes me shrug. Especially in a game like Star Citizen which isn't so much about "winning" as having the experience of being a space pilot.

Initially i thought that was a comparable scenario, but the more i think of it, i disagree.

In WOW buying a max character the only currency saved is time.

In SC buying a large ship not only saves time (time spent earning the currency) but also the currency itself. This would be okay if the currency earned was used exclusively for ships. But this currency can be used for other things. So the player that buys a ship saves no only time but also currency that can be used elsewhere. So it does impact the broader economy.

[MrAnderson]

So you admit PAY TO WIN is fine, as long as it was in the game at the beginning. K. Sorry some of us thought a space sim should start on equal footing for everyone. They could of funded with cosmetics and no gameplay impacting rewards, but instead, they sell you P2W features before release, and then launch it without them so RS can claim the game launched without any P2W MTX.

It's funny cause I've been playing every Star Citizen build since 2014 clocking god knows how many hours by now and I never felt that P2W you keep crying about!

Are you sure we've been playing the same game?
You did play it right?

Basicaly you're another entitled brat who thinks games magicaly appear from thin air and dev's should work for free and eat breadcrums while they make "your perfect game".

Yeah...that's not gona happen not matter how much you cry about it.

[bloodwulf]

It's funny cause I've been playing every Star Citizen build since 2014 clocking god knows how many hours by now and I never felt that P2W you keep crying about!

Are you sure we've been playing the same game?
You did play it right?

Basicaly you're another entitled brat who thinks games magicaly appear from thin air and dev's should work for free and eat breadcrums while they make "your perfect game".

Yeah...that's not gona happen not matter how much you cry about it.

Tons of games make it to market without Pay2Win mechanics. How about instead of attack a person like you did, you think about the facts. Many other games have released without making the decision to release pay to win mechanics. Hell there are free to play games that are able to constantly update content without giving players the options to get an actual advantage over other players for real money. I am sorry you are so indoctrinated to not see the reality. If it was just a matter of time saved, then it would be one thing, but this is a matter of time and credit saved at the cost of real money. The developers should of got a publisher if money was that critical past the crowdfunding. That would of helped them manage a realistic timeline as well.

[Kyanion]

The most id accept in a Real Money shop in a Space sim is Cosmetics. Pilot/Ship skins, Lighting effects, home interiors etc. Anything you can buy that otherwise bypasses any amount of effort put in by the player is unacceptable. You are going to create a game where the economy is player driven, and every coexists, yet whales can save credits by buying larger ships. It doesn't matter how many people it takes to crew it, if Group A has 5 people and they buy a ship with real money, and Group B has 5 people and they have to earn the credits to buy it, Group A is literally at an advantage that was purchased with dollars, end of story, enough said.

I can't agree more. Cosmetic store bought things are fine but when you can buy vehicles or things that can effect the economy. Fuck no.

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I dont get this constant crying about crowdfunded tittles selling assets in advance to fund development.

Probably comes from the same gamers who cry about the lack of inovation of the mmorpg genre.

How hard is it to understand that It's the only way these projects can even have a chance to exist. Selling ships have been there from the start. Dont like it fine. Go back to your monthly fee theme park ride. It's all good, no game or company pleases everyone.

Bitching about the wind and water being cold when you keep going to the same scotish beach during the winter seems the smart thing to do alright.

Yeah no. Funding it via Kickstarter with some incentives? Sure happens often. But then opening a cash shop once they expanded the game further than they could handle? Fuck that. No.

[Eleccybubb]

I can't agree more. Cosmetic store bought things are fine but when you can buy vehicles or things that can effect the economy. Fuck no.

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Yeah no. Funding it via Kickstarter with some incentives? Sure happens often. But then opening a cash shop once they expanded the game further than they could handle? Fuck that. No.

Funny thing is I bet this would have still brought in a decent amount with a cosmetic only cash shop.

Maybe not as much as a P2W one but well they were more than funded already.

[Kyanion]

So you admit PAY TO WIN is fine, as long as it was in the game at the beginning. K. Sorry some of us thought a space sim should start on equal footing for everyone. They could of funded with cosmetics and no gameplay impacting rewards, but instead, they sell you P2W features before release, and then launch it without them so RS can claim the game launched without any P2W MTX.

Equal footing might be a really compelling game. With people able to plunk down cash for an advantage it loses a ton of appeal.

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Basically it's about as pay-to-win as buying a max-level character in WoW, there's nothing you can buy that you couldn't get by playing the game. Personally I really don't care. I'm used to people doing better than me in games because they have the cash to buy a better set-up, people doing better in games because they don't have to work or see to other responsibilities - the fact people can give game developers money for an advantage just makes me shrug. Especially in a game like Star Citizen which isn't so much about "winning" as having the experience of being a space pilot.

The difference is buying a max level character in WoW is that first, Wow has been around how long now? This isn't a feature they put in at launch. The 'max' level character is 110, which the cap being 120 now still means they aren't getting to the end game instantly. Do you think WoW would have done as well if they had the 'buy a max level character' in the shop from day 1? Fuck no.

[stomination]

How will that affect your fun in game, and how do you know it will be a clear advantage, yes your in a bigger ship but the income is split depending on the size of the crew so they may not even come out with much more that someone in the solo version of that class of ship.

We dont know how all the game mechanics will play out.



i didnt say PvP was able to be turned off completely (although they have mentioned Private servers may come at some point), but if you have it set to the lowest and stay in safe space, then the likelyhood of a player attacking is going to be very low, unless you have something of worth on your ship there would be no point in going after that person would there.

We need to wait on the mechanics to be more finalised so we have more of an idea of how things can play out when the game is released.

The way pirating should work is they would disable your ship and board it or demand a ransom, or even kill the crew and steal the ship, destroying a ship for the sake of it would be rather pointless and the pirate would not gain as much.

Well kinda like EVE. You destroy the ship and part of what was inside of it floats in space for you or someone else to pick up.

Also In Eve people are attacked all the time in "safe zones" People get rich and make kamikaze ships to pester people mining/harvesting or to simply kill off ships to take thier loot with a teammate grabbing the loot.

[Kyanion]

It's funny cause I've been playing every Star Citizen build since 2014 clocking god knows how many hours by now and I never felt that P2W you keep crying about!

Are you sure we've been playing the same game?
You did play it right?

Basicaly you're another entitled brat who thinks games magicaly appear from thin air and dev's should work for free and eat breadcrums while they make "your perfect game".

Yeah...that's not gona happen not matter how much you cry about it.

Oh yeah how much did they make from that Kickstarter? God! Those poor starving artists!

Oh you've been playing it for 4 years now? I didn't know it launched.

Totallllllllly not P2W, nope. Better crack open my wallet and plunk down 24k or however much that silly bundle was.

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Funny thing is I bet this would have still brought in a decent amount with a cosmetic only cash shop.

Maybe not as much as a P2W one but well they were more than funded already.

Yup, they'd have plenty of ways to make money without selling in game credits, ships, land and whatever else you can crack open your wallet to get for advantages in game. For people to be blindly accepting of it and critical of people that are not going to accept it, is just funny.