MM Hunter's True Shot Rotation

[RsinRC]

@RsinRC

Since I am not a theorycrafter, I don't know how much what I am going to say actually matters. Comparing your rotation vs icy vein's, one of the biggest differences is your double tap aimed shot takes place while under Trueshot while icy vein's double tap aimed shot takes place before Trueshot. On the average, that may inflate your damage a little during that 15 seconds Trueshot.

Imo, an adult discussion is healthy. It may lead to discoveries. Personally, I applaud different people trying different things to find a best way

Double Tap is the first thing you use in my rotation. If your build is more focused on your Rapid Fire you can Double Tap during TS by replacing the first or second precise shots (make sure to use Precise Shot only if Aimed Shot is on CD) and use it for a fat juicy Rapid Fire.

@Azortharion, I'm assuming you're speaking to me I can tell you right off the bat I have been more focused on pvp and through pvp I figured this rotation and since then my openers in pvp AND pve has risen.

I didn't have enough time since I've capped my new hunter to go full pve mode yet because of the time I'm investing in my channel and it's pvp content.

I will be focusing on pve in the coming weeks to continue learning my class and experience bfa's content in harder difficulties and see what I can do about these logs, I've never had experience with logs but maybe it will help me understand what is going on and see where does it bring me in the grand scheme of things.

I bring this information at face value meaning it has been the highest amount of damage that I can put out during TS' duration time and time again and I will stand by it and continue using it's advantages when the opportunity shows itself.

[Azortharion]

Well, you do you of course. But presenting it as "the best" with nothing else to back it up is just dishonest to your viewers and the people reading.

There is a difference between "presenting something that works for you", and "presenting something as if it is objectively the best way of doing things".

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Thank you later for what? Making up a random opener, putting out there as the "optimal opener" with literally nothing to back it up?

Thanks rauta for your contribution.

Well it gives you good amount of AiS and arcane usage and after Trueshot window you'll have 1 AiS charge and RF about to come up so it's pretty straight forward to continue normal rotation.

[RsinRC]

Well, you do you of course. But presenting it as "the best" with nothing else to back it up is just dishonest to your viewers and the people reading.

There is a difference between "presenting something that works for you", and "presenting something as if it is objectively the best way of doing things".

I'm definitely not being dishonest and I've put time and work on this so save me the belittling. And it's rare for this to happen but the rotation on the icy-veins website for MM hunters is one that many main hunter's can't seem to follow through with and are finding different rotations that are working best for them. There is a lot of confusion about this 1 sequence and it seems like the icy-veins rotation isn't helping the community as a whole and should be looked at from different builds and perspectives.

[Skandulous]

I'm definitely not being dishonest and I've put time and work on this so save me the belittling. And it's rare for this to happen but the rotation on the icy-veins website for MM hunters is one that many main hunter's can't seem to follow through with and are finding different rotations that are working best for them. There is a lot of confusion about this 1 sequence and it seems like the icy-veins rotation isn't helping the community as a whole and should be looked at from different builds and perspectives.

you have sims to back this up? If not then your just guessing at this point and its your opinion vs facts backed up by sims

[Tyrilion]

@Azortharion

This rotation works in both pve and pvp. It'a squeezing the most damage while using True Shot.

You say it's for pve, what is it exactly you're going for that makes your opening rotation better for pve when I'm showing a rotation that is stronger, simpler and smoother?

Youre arguing with the literal Hunter God mate

[Azortharion]

I'm definitely not being dishonest and I've put time and work on this so save me the belittling. And it's rare for this to happen but the rotation on the icy-veins website for MM hunters is one that many main hunter's can't seem to follow through with and are finding different rotations that are working best for them. There is a lot of confusion about this 1 sequence and it seems like the icy-veins rotation isn't helping the community as a whole and should be looked at from different builds and perspectives.

I write guides to provide the best rotation. Not what people subjectively seem to find "works better" for them.

The fact is that there is too much variance in the game to make these calls without simulating them. So anything where someone goes "works better" is basically invalid - because there is no way anyone can tell the difference between two mostly similar approaches without simulating them. Sometimes things "feel" better, but that is not the same as it actually being better.

To call something that is not actually proven to be best, "the best", is to be dishonest. That's all. You can criticize the guide and I'll listen, but so far you haven't actually provided anything of substance. I proved your opener to be incorrect to the best of my ability by simulating it. Your retort is "well mine works better in practice", with absolutely no proof to suggest this. If we pretend that the difference is actually significant, then looking at your logs then it doesn't seem to be doing well "in practice", and it doesn't hold up in theory either.

[Kelato]

as a hunter since 2004 and top 1% on every tier list since wotlk, i do find your guide moronic
very narrow and shallow and not quiet done yet.

I took a glance at your post history because i was curious what you got banned for. Then I noticed you have several posts with contradicting statements about when and how long you have been playing WoW. So I guess this one here is not true either....

[Kissthebaby]

I trust what this guy has to say. Just have a good feeling about the man.

[ProfessorTjc]

I like how the apparent "hunter god" is whining about an opening being wrong in the video when the video proves the guide wrong. Azortharion has a garbage attitude.

[Azortharion]

I'm open to changing my mind with some actual proof, that's all. Otherwise this is all just hot air, I've provided mine on the first page.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

I cant provide my proof yet but I have a friend who is better than me with simcraft things. he recommended me the opener but I asked him to show me actual proof so I can post it here.

[Azortharion]

I cant provide my proof yet but I have a friend who is better than me with simcraft things. he recommended me the opener but I asked him to show me actual proof so I can post it here.

If it's eraopas then he actually PM'd me on Discord with some useful stuff already and that'll prolly make it into SimC next reset.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

If it's eraopas then he actually PM'd me on Discord with some useful stuff already and that'll prolly make it into SimC next reset.

ok, cool. I didnt know this

[elcapone]

Youre arguing with the literal Hunter God mate

lmao thought the same thing, I can see why azor is triggered tho because you can't say one is better "optimal", he was pretty much taking a shot at Azor. Azor just wants scientific approach if your gonna call him out. Sims is one way, parses is another way. Ive seen Azor parses/dps, fookn machine. I usually bounce between blue and purple.

[Crzypck]

I'm definitely not being dishonest and I've put time and work on this so save me the belittling. And it's rare for this to happen but the rotation on the icy-veins website for MM hunters is one that many main hunter's can't seem to follow through with and are finding different rotations that are working best for them. There is a lot of confusion about this 1 sequence and it seems like the icy-veins rotation isn't helping the community as a whole and should be looked at from different builds and perspectives.

The main issue with your argument, and what Azor tried to point out, is a simple one. You're comparing anecdotal evidence with tested data. Your "data" showing your rotation as "better" is entirely your own anecdotal data from using your DPS meter on a variety of target dummies, pvp, and pve content. That's wonderful, and points you in a direction that maybe it should be tested.

What Azor presented is different. A sim is not some abstract, pie in the sky thing. It's a simulated model running a set rotation. Azor presented you with the results simming the rotation he's developed and publicized on Icy Veins, versus your different rotation. The sim doesn't test this as a one-time thing to see what happens. Instead, it looks atthousands of 5 minute time periods of each rotation. This smooths out the results. It's very possible your anecdotal evidence from your video had a much higher than average occurrence of critical strikes on your Aimed Shots during your version of the rotation, and you were subsequently unlucky with crits during your presentation of Azor's rotation. Testing a rotation 3 times does not smooth out the results, and instead presents what could be vastly skewed results. This is where sims come in. The sims tested each rotation thousands of times, not 3 times. The net result of the average of these several thousand rotations is a much more reliable result when comparing the two rotations.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Azor isn't trying to build the rotations in the guide to just be simple to execute. That'd defeat the purpose of the guide. He spends hours testing various ideas to come up with the result which produces the highest possible potential output. People use the Icy Veins guide because we know the work Azor puts in, and that the results he posts are the mathematical best option available.

If you honestly believe your rotation will outperform the Icy Veins rotation over several thousand instances of performing each, sims is how you back that thought up. If you believe that when Azor ran a sim of your rotation vs his, the results were incorrect because the model completed your rotation incorrectly, that's something that can be rectified by modifying the APL in simcraft. Regardless, before you can claim your rotation is better than the recommended one, you need much more than simple anecdotal evidence.

[Tyrilion]

lmao thought the same thing, I can see why azor is triggered tho because you can't say one is better "optimal", he was pretty much taking a shot at Azor. Azor just wants scientific approach if your gonna call him out. Sims is one way, parses is another way. Ive seen Azor parses/dps, fookn machine. I usually bounce between blue and purple.

I can imagine this isn't the only fella that thinks he knows better than a veteran theorycrafter and the number 1 hunter in wow.. hese probably fed up with thier bs i know i would be

- - - Updated - - -

I'm definitely not being dishonest and I've put time and work on this so save me the belittling. And it's rare for this to happen but the rotation on the icy-veins website for MM hunters is one that many main hunter's can't seem to follow through with and are finding different rotations that are working best for them. There is a lot of confusion about this 1 sequence and it seems like the icy-veins rotation isn't helping the community as a whole and should be looked at from different builds and perspectives.

But that doesn't make yours the best... it makes it easier but someone with more skill will outperform you using icyveins hence why its better

[Azortharion]

Me being a "veteran" or experienced does not inherently make what I say more valuable or true.

Everything I say should be analyzed for what it is, not for who the person saying the words is.

Implying that people should sit down, shut up and listen to me because I write guides and have good parses is just as fallacious as the opposite extreme. After all I could be wrong. I don't think I am in this case though.