Another victory for the Horde!

[rowaasr13]

Well they still consider themselves to be honorable while the "civilized southerners" are craven weaklings worshiping false gods.

They are indeed honorable in their own sense of honor that does NOT change every day. Other forces know it as "Northerners honor", understand it and act accordingly. Horde's "honor" OTOH is "whatever profitable or can be used as excuse right now". Horde right now is typical literally chaotic evil (i.e. no set morals + evil acts) Orcs I, personally, so tired of.

[Jastall]

Well they still consider themselves to be honorable while the "civilized southerners" are craven weaklings worshiping false gods.

Sure, but the setting of the story still clearly paints Chaos and all those aligned with it as the evil side. Whereas the writers of Warcraft can't make up their mind as to whenever the Horde are poor, downtrodden and misunderstood underdogs or a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers who can't be relied upon to not hope for a spot of genocide every few years.

That's why the entire thing is so unsatisfying. In Warhammer some factions are absolutely evil, even if they feel they are justified by their own twisted logic (the Dark Elves are another good example of this). But the narrative doesn't even try to paint an equivalence between those who literally want to murder the entire planet and those who are "just" your garden variety ruthless, expansionist empire or bunch of angry midgets who go to war over rounding errors. And there are also plenty of factions to choose from, so if you want a goody two-shoes, the High Elves exist. If you like more spice, the Tomb Kings or Wood Elves are a lot less nice but still have fairly reasonable motives. And if you just want to kill people in various creative ways for funsies, by all means favor the Skaven or Slaanesh or whatever.

Warhammer calls a spade a spade. Warcraft tries to convince us that the spade is actually a pickaxe, and sometimes swipes the pickaxe in favor of an actual spade and then tries to convince us it's really a pickaxe, guys.

[Leodric]

Why, because NPC had a sad one liner when it died?

No, because imagining myself in that universe and seeing someone kill a non-combat hospital staff member would simply be wrong.

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I mean, the Northerners in Warhammer are consistently depicted as madmen worshiping gods of evil who want nothing more than to destroy the world, and that's without going into the actual Chaos Warriors who are even crazier. That's hardly a great example to use in order to justify anything the Horde does.

that's exactly the point why that example is actually kind bad trying to depict the Horde as doing no wrong in that scenario. Of course different cultures/races have a different view on what is honorable or evil, but the Horde isn't that different than the Alliance in that regard or our "real life" thinking of what is wrong and/or right.

[Combatbutler]

No, because imagining myself in that universe and seeing someone kill a non-combat hospital staff member would simply be wrong.

How so? It is pretty much the norm in the warcraft universe, people would think damn Tuesday already. Slaughter and the use of excessive force is a constant, whether against primitives like murlocs, gnolls or other more developed races.

[Minikin]

So you think this scenario is unthinkable only because she doesnt understand why we are trying to kill her? I guess killing a retard would be a first, if it wasnt for majority of raid bosses.



Honor is always dependant on the culture. I mean look at this description of an honorable individual.

I know but the issue at this point their brand of honor has become just an opinion and a bad one at that. If there are 10 people in a room, many of them disagree with you, at some point it should call for some self reflection.

Warhammer doesn't apply as orcs in there are fairly linear in their telling. "The scourge of all civilization". And it works because they embrace it. However in WoW orcs or the horde in general commit to scenarios but then weep about being Noble and justified.

Mind you that is the case now. Because of what's been done. Until cata one could debate openly about the horde and find a good balance. But now it's over and you can already see the fools in this thread "because its alliance" "because it's blue". I mean heck we have gone from proper faction depth to this "whaaaa I'm 5 and furrr da Hurd".

And I think they realize that. With what they recently said about Garrosh. And how they have shot themselves in the foot with this sylvanas brigade.

[sighy]

Well, I guess fuck WC3 then. It was praised precisely because it drew different kind of Orcs than usual "me smash" bunch. Also they need to fix that obvious typo with "peaceful and shamanistic" on creation screen.

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You did miss her /say on death, did you?

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Because same Horde (and its IRL supporters) are obsessed with explaining how they are "honorable", "misunderstood" and "morally gray". I'd have no problems with openly evil faction, as long as it is not flip-flopping or outright lying every day. But Horde just can't come out of its closet on that.

Have you actually played it? Because the Orces were savage, with Thrall occasionally bitching about it.

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They are indeed honorable in their own sense of honor that does NOT change every day. Other forces know it as "Northerners honor", understand it and act accordingly. Horde's "honor" OTOH is "whatever profitable or can be used as excuse right now". Horde right now is typical literally chaotic evil (i.e. no set morals + evil acts) Orcs I, personally, so tired of.

Well there it comes down to for instance different cultures having their own values. Also chaotic evil is doing horrendous shit just because you feel like it(not the case). You could make an argument, for neutral evil or simply true neutral. Both of which can be pretty damn hardcore, but have a purpose and a reason, for doing so.

Difference is that NE cares for results, at expense of morality, while TN has a greater purpose and does literally anything necessary to achieve it, while disregarding the morality and law/chaos discussion altogether.

[OIS]

And again. I used it because if i would post those 100 of times here the post would be 10 pages long. And people will start to nit pick on everyone on of the actions.
Lets put it this way. Wathever i typed here...some of you would get mad. And no i am not drawing a line. I am saying you people are comparing apples to beef. You guys are saying all is fair in love and war, that its the same etc. I am saying killing docots in a hospital is not the same as killing/scaring arms dealers...because in WQ you make them run...not kill them.

I'm not sure I follow. I did not compare anything. I'm just talking about how ridiculous it is to bring up Geneva Convention in this discussion. There's no such thing in Warcraft universe so arguing that the Horde's actions violate the Geneva Convention is meaningless, you can't violate anything that doesn't exist. It's kind of annoying, scratch that it's very annoying, that people bring up stuff like the Geneva Convention, or war crimes and the like. It's not real life, we can afford to root for some allegedly evil guys.

[Daevelian]

I'm not sure I follow. I did not compare anything. I'm just talking about how ridiculous it is to bring up Geneva Convention in this discussion. There's no such thing in Warcraft universe so arguing that the Horde's actions violate the Geneva Convention is meaningless, you can't violate anything that doesn't exist. It's kind of annoying, scratch that it's very annoying, that people bring up stuff like the Geneva Convention, or war crimes and the like. It's not real life, we can afford to root for some allegedly evil guys.

Ya had me until that bolded word there.

No, the horde (in its current incarnation) are outright evil from any reasonable out of game perspective, there is zero doubt about that right now. You would have an easier time selling the SWToR Sith as "allegedly" evil than you would the horde right now.

[cityguy193]

Makes me sad that edgelords comprise the horde fanbase now. This type of binary shitty writing is usually reserved for mobile games, no horde player should like this.

You wanna be evil and play the evil faction, fine. But to write the players as Saturday morning cartoon villians is downright sad, this is something a 5th grader can write.

[sighy]

Ya had me until that bolded word there.

No, the horde (in its current incarnation) are outright evil from any reasonable out of game perspective, there is zero doubt about that right now. You would have an easier time selling the SWToR Sith as "allegedly" evil than you would the horde right now.

There are plenty of compelling antiheroes... in other words a protagonist of evil or unorthodox moral standing. Also it would be fun, if we could do half the things SWTOR Sith were allowed to.

[Varodoc]

Remake in that case might mean something else than conquer and making kalimdor about one third of the know world would change it and could interpited as remaking.

You would really have to be grasping at straws to believe that "Today, WE will remake the world. Our world. FOR THE HORDE!" doesn't equal to world domination.

Why is it so hard to accept that Jaina was right to declare war on Garrosh and Garrosh was wrong? Like, what are you trying to achieve? Garrosh is a despised villain and Jaina is pitied for the Fall of Theramore anyway by the writers and the characters in-universe.

[sighy]

You would really have to be grasping at straws to believe that "Today, WE will remake the world. Our world. FOR THE HORDE!" doesn't equal to world domination.

Why is it so hard to accept that Jaina was right to declare war on Garrosh and Garrosh was wrong? Like, what are you trying to achieve? Garrosh is a despised villain and Jaina is pitied for the Fall of Theramore anyway by the writers and the characters in-universe.

While it was a traumatic event it was not an unjustified out of nowhere bla bla bla...

Also the Stonetalon thing was nuking a bunch of druid apprentices(Night Elf and Tauren alike.) While Theramore had a lot of Aliance support there. Also Trolls were used for target practice too so yea. Fair to say that it happened after Garrosh went coocoo True Horde, etc

[Mardux]

I never made secret of leaning towards the Alliance more than the current iteration of the Horde, since it's not the Horde I liked or played during Warcraft 3 anymore (where I mained Orc, before switching to UD and played thousands of games for years because I liked the fantasy a lot). I also acknowledge when the Alliance starts dumb shit and you can bet I would definitly be against such an action like killing non-fighting hospital staff. Also I tend to play more good aligned characters in every RPG I touch, so there is another reason why I like the Alliance more and liked thralls-horde a lot. But you can obviously specifically point out the bias I showed towards anything?

I am waiting

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"No, you!" - the post. If you carefully read my posts, I answered every question you targeted towards me.

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100% this, funny how they kept it in the creation screen though, didn't see that one for a while

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so civillians who are on the alliance faction are also a threat or do you mean in the game sense of "branded" Alliance, which not always depicts the lore side of the WoW for obviousy reasons.

Yeah, i'll go ahead and agree with you on the idea thats pretty much pointless to even speak to you any further about any of this seeing as you admitted to your bias.

You win. I'll take your advice and not speak to you on the subject. I would suggest others take your advice and just ignore you as well.

[Leodric]

How so? It is pretty much the norm in the warcraft universe, people would think damn Tuesday already. Slaughter and the use of excessive force is a constant, whether against primitives like murlocs, gnolls or other more developed races.

You are right, I think WoW was never meant to be as detailed as showing councils or any kind of leadership discussing the well-being of the gnolls/murlocs. More detailed explanations was always reserved for the Alliance/Horde conflict. I think slaughtering hospital staff is something Blizzard didn't put randomly into the game. They very well know that this would cause controversy and put the Horde in a bad light, at least that's what I see. I also don't see another reason than showing the Alliance as the more "good" side by changing the vulpera quest from killing to scaring them.

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Yeah, i'll go ahead and agree with you on the idea thats pretty much pointless to even speak to you any further about any of this seeing as you admitted to your bias.

You win. I'll take your advice and not speak to you on the subject. I would suggest others take your advice and just ignore you as well.

Ok bud , whatever makes you sleep better at night.

[baskev]

I'm not sure I follow. I did not compare anything. I'm just talking about how ridiculous it is to bring up Geneva Convention in this discussion.

I explained it several times...
But let me explain it again....this forum...whatever you type...they dissect these days. So if i would have said they did this....20 of you would dissect and try to counter it with weird out of context facts.
So lets make it real simple...using geneva was the most easy way to explain the morality problem of the situation.

There's no such thing in Warcraft universe so arguing that the Horde's actions violate the Geneva Convention is meaningless, you can't violate anything that doesn't exist.

lol
Do i say it exists: Nope
Do i say something like it exists in wow: Nope
I am using it to show the morality problem it presents. You have acts of war, bad acts of war etc. And things that would break the geneva convention ( aka war crimes etc).
So its not meaningless. I am showing on witch scale these acts land.

It's kind of annoying, scratch that it's very annoying, that people bring up stuff like the Geneva Convention, or war crimes and the like. It's not real life, we can afford to root for some allegedly evil guys.

And its kind of annoying that people you like take everything litteral. And can not read ( or refuse to)...i said it from the start...its a example of how bad the acts are.
You make it out that the horde was not in switzerland to sign it. Or that geneva does not exist in WoW ( both the place and the accord) etc etc etc.
I am just making the point how bad it is.
And for the last time if i had put it in a otherway you guys would have still respond as butthurt like now.

[Combatbutler]

You are right, I think WoW was never meant to be as detailed as showing councils or any kind of leadership discussing the well-being of the gnolls/murlocs. More detailed explanations was always reserved for the Alliance/Horde conflict. I think slaughtering hospital staff is something Blizzard didn't put randomly into the game. They very well know that this would cause controversy and put the Horde in a bad light, at least that's what I see. I also don't see another reason than showing the Alliance as the more "good" side by changing the vulpera quest from killing to scaring them.

Yet little stuff like that really shouldn't cause such a controversy, because every last character on both sides has done things ten times worse and were hailed a hero for it universally. What is worthy of controversy are the things out of the norm for the brutality of the warcraft universe itself. Which would be something like the burning of Teldrassil, but smaller massacres happen almost every day in the universe and that should be the standard to judge the whole affair, not our own modern morals.

It is true blizz has a clear agenda here, yet they ignore the consistency of their own universe and on top implement the morality so incredibly sloppy if not downright retarded, the whole story narrative is off to say the least.

[Rozz]

Yet little stuff like that really shouldn't cause such a controversy, because every last character on both sides has done things ten times worse and were hailed a hero for it universally. What is worthy of controversy are the things out of the norm for the brutality of the warcraft universe itself. Which would be something like the burning of Teldrassil, but smaller massacres happen almost every day in the universe and that should be the standard to judge the whole affair, not our own modern morals.

It is true blizz has a clear agenda here, yet they ignore the consistency of their own universe and on top implement the morality so incredibly sloppy if not downright retarded, the whole story narrative is off to say the least.

I feel the inconsistency really strong when it comes to any arsenal the Horde has tbh. Esp w/ bombs and the blight. In a world in which combatants are allowed to torture and mutilate their enemies casually, chemistry is the real evil.

[Skulltaker]

Quick Question, since I don't want to create a new thread just for it and it kind of ties into the topic:

In 8.0, the Horde Warcampaign mostly revolved around stealing the Abyssal Scepter, if I'm not mistaken. In 8.1, the Alliance steals it back with 5 people (allthough these five are kind of paragons in their own fields). Now as an Alliance player that somewhat feels off. Is there any indication in the Horde campaign or story that the Scepter was tampered with, that the one in the treasury was a fake, or anything else? That would feel like something Sylvanas would come up with, but I was wondering if there was any indication to that. I'd hate to something like 'But it was a fake the whole time!'

[sighy]

Quick Question, since I don't want to create a new thread just for it and it kind of ties into the topic:

In 8.0, the Horde Warcampaign mostly revolved around stealing the Abyssal Scepter, if I'm not mistaken. In 8.1, the Alliance steals it back with 5 people (allthough these five are kind of paragons in their own fields). Now as an Alliance player that somewhat feels off. Is there any indication in the Horde campaign or story that the Scepter was tampered with, that the one in the treasury was a fake, or anything else? That would feel like something Sylvanas would come up with, but I was wondering if there was any indication to that. I'd hate to something like 'But it was a fake the whole time!'

Well there is a certain charm to asking yourself a question "Do i feel lucky?" well do you punk?

[SirKickBan]

Well the problem with geneva convention in WoW is that certain specialisations break them every time they do an ability(see DK, Warlock, Mage, Assassination rogue, etc), as well as the players having broken it on pretty much every single concievable level at some point. Before BfA.

Also real life medics save lives of the wounded/incapacitated and don't literally bring them back to fresh fighting shape, in less than a minute. If that were the case it would be the first person you took out, in any engagement.

As for the point and counterpoint thing. It's almost like two sides have two points of view, which are equally valid.

WoW healers don't do that, either. In OOC, game-mechanics terms, a healer can bring you to full HP in a few seconds, sure, but game mechanics have never been canon. But how many times, on the other hand, have we seen beds full of the injured, laying around in what's pretty clearly a relatively long-term care area? If healers worked the way you suppose, that simply wouldn't happen, and yet a character or characters being injured for long periods of time has been a repeated event in various storylines.

As for the part about how DKs, warlocks, mages and rogues supposedly can't help but 'automatically' break the rules of war, that's... Either deliberate ignorance, or a severe lack of critical thinking. Two of those, warlocks and death knights, are heavily stigmatized for more or less exactly that reason, already, despite the fact that none of those classes.. None of any of the classes, are 'required' to do anything that violates the laws and customs of war. None of them, for instance, are required to target civilians, or unable to help but cause collateral damage. Soul-stealing and corpse-raising (At least the way DKs do it, which seems to involve raising something that's more automaton than sapient beings) are unpleasant, but neither of them (barring certain religious interpretations about the nature of the soul, a topic on which WoW has been wishy-washy at the best of times) seem like they cause excessive suffering, either. -And, again, these are the two worst classes, in this regard, are canonically stigmatized for exactly this reason, and are relatively few in number.

And, to the bit about players having done these kinds of things before.. It's a question of context and canoninity. There's a world of difference, for example, between what we do in an out of the way quest that isn't ever referenced again, and what appears in a pre-rendered cinematic, to use an extreme example. In this case, the canoninity of incursions is debatable, and I feel that the only reason this is more upsetting to the fanbase than, say.. Brennadam, is that this is actually something the Horde player is 'made' (I know you can just choose not to do the quest) to do. But, even so, incursions are tied to the central theme of this expansion, so far, so it's hard to see the methods and reasons behind them as being non-canon, even if the specific events may not be something that actually 'happened'. In other words, it seems fair to say that this incursion indicates that the Horde as a whole are more than willing to kill healers and aid-givers.

Lastly.. There are, indeed, two points of view. But at this point, anyone who can consider the Horde's as 'valid' (Given the wealth of evidence that nearly every example and justification Sylvanas has given in support of her actions has been not only flawed, false, or non-existant, but also that she couldn't have failed to have been aware of that, at the time) are either unaware of the full series of events leading to this point in the story, or are too invested in the Horde to consider (Or admit) anything else.

Don't get me wrong, they could have come up with arguments or scenarios that weren't complete garbage. They exist, and I've have loved to have been placed in a situation where both sides made valid points. But they didn't, and we're stuck with a poorly-written, unfocused wreck of a story because of it.