Kurds turning to the Syrian gov for help against the Turks

[Techno-Druid]

This comes to the point of culture. It isn't pride, it's culture. America wouldn't sacrifice their democracy for anything.

We make exceptions for groups like Native Americans and overseas territories. Indian Reservations are for all intents and purposes their own little countries with caveats.

Because tribes possess the concept of tribal sovereignty, even though it is limited, laws on tribal lands vary from those of the surrounding area. These laws can permit legal casinos on reservations, for example, which attract tourists. The tribal council, not the local government or the United States federal government, often has jurisdiction over reservations. Different reservations have different systems of government, which may or may not replicate the forms of government found outside the reservation.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ations-usa.png

[Shadee]

'People just hate on America for no reason!'

Boy, oh boy, it's a good thing americans like shooting themselves so much otherwise they might actually have to worry about terrorists from the ME.

Wrong! Only a certain segment is doing the shooting. Reported for nation bashing.

[Deleted]

We make exceptions for groups like Native Americans and overseas territories. Indian Reservations are for all intents and purposes their own little countries with caveats.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ations-usa.png

so the natives could invite china to build bases on their territories? no? so much for being their own countries...

[Kuntantee]

That was partially why I even entertained the idea of a mutually agreed split-off: Turkey would basically "only" give up what could more or less be called a dead limb, in exchange for peace and monetary savings. I see how Kurds in the western areas wouldn't like to be "deported" there, but they probably could keep on living where they are under the same terms Turks that would end up in "Kurdistan" could. Make it part of the deal!

This is what certain people started to suggest. However, when I mean "underdeveloped shithole", I mean it. If Turkey to cut all the fuel going into South Eastern Turkey, namely, money, administrative resources, energy etc. It would be disastrous for local population. Not all of them support PKK. I will add my personal opinion later on this.

American culture is probably as alien to me as the Turkish . But I also would argue that these aspects aren't comparable 1:1. One would affect everyone directly in the whole of the nation, the other is spacially limited and most that don't live in the general area would probably barely notice anything if something changed.

If we just let it go, it would probably improve the economy, and general public mental health (people are reaally sick of soldiers dying in South Eastern Turkey). The issue tho, as I said, the borders and land is sacred. No one is getting it without a fight.

I comprehend, but I don't really understand. This sounds basically like rather archaic practices of expansionist/occupational nature, as well as a general disrespect for the individual. As in we're ready to sacrifice lives for a goal that in reality doesn't give much else than bragging rights - and we're also okay with sacrificing other groups' lives while at it. This is something that will never fit into my understanding of modern humanity. I actively don't want it to fit. It's terrible. (Especially when it's about clinging to a wart that's constantly nagging you. I'd be happy to get rid of it, not defend it from all the scalpels and lasers because "it's MINE"!)

We have a term for this in Turkish, it's called "devletci". It would translate to something like "state-ist". Boils down to glorification of state as a power. This is a characteristic Turkish trait. Even what you'd consider the most liberal are "devletci" in Turkey. No one rules but the state, and no one (non-citizen entities, like PKK, or some other state) gets anything from the state. The state represents the power of Turkish people. To understand how this trait is developed, you need to study history. This trait is directly inherited from Ottoman Empire. This might be illogical to most, but you can't change it, this is how it is.

My idea was based on: If PKK was deprived of its (proclaimed) reason to fight, they might actually stop. (And my idea to bring NATO into this was for the case that they wouldn't.)

Yes. There is indeed no reason these days for an armed rebellion. NATO isn't a treaty for internal issues. I doubt NATO would be interested at all. And by the way, do not think TAF is failing to defeat PKK. PKK, on average, has 5K active militants (excluding YPG in Syria which is a new thing). TAF neutralized 35k or so fighters so far. Perhaps even more. So TAF has actually defeated PKK 7 times, yet they keep recruiting. Back in the days, there were lots of reasons to alienate Kurds but right now, not so much. And by the way, it has been demonstrated by Turkish intelligence that the more TAF and the state controls the South East, the less likely Kurds to go and join PKK. Families do not want their children to die in 4 years (average life expectancy of PKK militants). In contrast, it has been demonstrated that in "peace process", the PKK recruitment numbers sky rocketed, because TAF wasn't allowed to assert authority in South Eastern Turkey. PKK basically threatened families to give their sons and daughters. It's hard for South Eastern locals. One side, you have PKK which will kill you if you do not help. If you help, you can go to jail, or worse become a target for TAF. This is exactly what happened in 90s. This is precisely why TAF needs to control South Eastern Turkey which is what this YPG problem is about.

Honestly, that's a terrible argument. As long as all sides shed their ancient chauvinist views and realize that a life in peace promises to be more prosperous for everyone involved (aka evolve into modern humans) squabbles over tiny patches of land seem completely stupid. Every conflict has the potential of resolution via diplomancy (of the mouth). If it looks like it doesn't, at least one party can reasonably be accuesd of unwarranted stubbornness. I guess in this particular case, this still applies to all parties :/

No one really wants to solve problem with compromises. I've pointed out the cultural reasons for that. I do not know what kind of motivation PKK has to continue but they gained a lot in Syria.

This could be mulled out in a repective deal. Say it has to be now, in the current state of things, no money. If the Kurds don't agree, you can perfectly claim to be right and go on denying them. But making this "offer" could go a long way in depriving folks like PKK of their support - if handled and communicated right.


Glad to hear this. This often seems to be the case. I've even heared about Palestinians and Israelis that live in the less "politically abused" border areas to get along fairly okay. People in general tend to be WAY more inclusive and peaceful in individual interactions - something that sadly isn't very well reflected in politics across the world.



For the US thing see above. As for the Turkish stance: I won't really understand this mentality ever. It looks silly to me in the grander scheme of things and is artificially holding back regions, which is just as much of a nuisance to the Turks themselves, really. I'd call this a case of "objectively bad aspect of culture" worthy of revision.

--


And here the cat bites it's own tail. It takes one to be "the bigger man", and the one doing so would win SO MUCH of a moral high ground (and possibly lots of points with the international community). It's also infinitely easier to be that bigger man as a centrally govenerd body, as opposed to a loose bunch of monkeys with guns. Turkey could swipe all their "mental ammo" in an instant by simply just getting at a table and start talking. (And making clear that ongoing attacks will end these talks immediately.) I'd still say worth a try.

Here is what I personally think:

Over the years, I have prepared myself mentally for a break-up. It isn't easy for someone who grew in Turkish society to let go of a part of the country. I think we should make a decision.

- Either put complete neutralization of PKK to highest priority for the state. Conduct military operations to wipe them from Kandil, Syria and rest.
- As you suggest, separate certain cities in South Eastern Turkey. Those who want to live in shithole what they call Kurdistan, be my guest, gtfo of my country. Those who desire to stay in Turkey are to stop supporting any separatist movement.

The third option: Political/administrative autonomy. no. I will not have baby murderers in the mountains to be part of my country, in any shape or form, let alone seeing them they govern parts of Turkey.

I will not comment how feasible the third option is, I personally reject it. However, the second of first two option (what you suggested) is not realistic. First of all, if we suddenly cut it, most of those people would come to Turkey anyway, because that region, together with other Easter parts of Turkey, for example, North/Mid-North Eastern Turkey, is highly dependent on the money being made in Western Turkey. The likely scenario for near future (10-15 years) is that Turkey will keep fighting. With help of Turkish defense industry, things will probably go much smoother going forward. Namely, drones help quite a lot.

So, either cut it off (unrealistic and poor decisions for the locals), or wipe PKK (hard and more soldier deaths). There is no in between for me. By the way, I am solely talking about dealing with PKK. I think we should improve cultural rights of Kurds and economics of South Eastern Turkey, so long as we stick with first option, obviously.

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Kurds have been thrown under the bus by the West so many times now, for so long... It's actually very tragic.

Maybe...just maybe...they should have worked with Assad, instead of failing to control their ambitions for separatism? No one threw them under bus. International politics is international politics, you commit if there is something to be gained, you pull out if cost/benefit ration doesn't suit you.

[Dsonsion]

I shared this on the US troops thread, but I think it fits better here. It's the perspective of one of the anarchists participating in the Rojava community.


https://www.globalrights.info/2018/1...eat-to-rojava/

[caervek]

Cause that worked out so great the last time the west decided to give away land it didn't hold. The mistake that is called Israel is not even 100 years old let's not repeat that.

Technically speaking the west DID hold the land, the British took it from the Ottoman Empire during WW1, and we didn't give it away, we tried to split it between the indigenous Jews and the Muslim settlers however the Muslims rejected the partition plan in favour of war (which they lost).

[Techno-Druid]

Technically speaking the west DID hold the land, the British took it from the Ottoman Empire during WW1, and we didn't give it away, we tried to split it between the indigenous Jews and the Muslim settlers however the Muslims rejected the partition plan in favour of war (which they lost).

This is somewhat a loaded explanation, as genetically speaking, most modern Middle Eastern populations are still most closely related to the Pre-Islamic and Pre-Abrahamic ethnic groups with admixture from other regions: Modern Arabic-speaking Egyptians being closely related to the Ancient Egyptians, Iraqis being Arabized Mesopotamians, Lebanese people having genetic links to Phoenicians, etc. Palestinians are no exception:

In recent years, many genetic studies have demonstrated that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians – and other Levantines – are genetically closer to each other than the Jews to their host countries.[144] Many Palestinians themselves refer to Jews as their awlâd 'ammnâ or paternal cousins.[145]

One DNA study by Nebel found substantial genetic overlap among Israeli and Palestinian Arabs and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. A small but statistically significant difference was found in the Y-chromosomal haplogroup distributions of Sephardic Jews and Palestinians, but no significant differences were found between Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians nor between the two Jewish communities, However, a highly distinct cluster was found in Palestinian haplotypes. 32% of the 143 Arab Y-chromosomes studied belonged to this "I&P Arab clade", which contained only one non-Arab chromosome, that of a Sephardic Jew. This could possibly be attributed to the geographical isolation of the Jews or to the immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.[146] Nebel proposed that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".

"Arab" is not really an ethnic identity, but more of a cultural-linguistic one, much like Hispanic or Latino.

[Acidbaron]

Technically speaking the west DID hold the land, the British took it from the Ottoman Empire during WW1, and we didn't give it away, we tried to split it between the indigenous Jews and the Muslim settlers however the Muslims rejected the partition plan in favour of war (which they lost).

I remember bombings preceding the Jewish state especially a hotel called king David if I'm not mistaken

[Techno-Druid]

Religions have no roots in actual realities. More news at 11.

Less snarky: It's probably been long known that anything in the vast groups of Islam and Christianity have pretty much originated in roughly the same area at roughly the same time, and that people - despite some claims to the contrary by some strains of these religions - have been around (and inter-mixing) especially in these regions for waaaaay longer than the advent of said beliefs. Of course they're going to be fairly closely related to each other, as well as also to the general population within their more specific areas.
Pretty much the only relatively effective barrier for genetic distribution in ancient times were the larger oceans, and even those failed to keep pools "clean" in some cases. And completely gave way since a couple of generations in the very least. Genetics, by now, pretty much mean squat. The only actual roots for dissent are purely cultural, i.e. 100% man made.

Human diversity isn't really given justice by the outdated, lay terms related to race, to the point where most anthropologists and molecular geneticists have abandoned its usage (at least in that context).

Human diversity is largely clinal with only, like you said, extreme geographic barriers and genetic drift leading to genetic "discontinuities". Essentially, barring extremely isolated populations like Andamanese Islanders (like the Sentinelese that killed that missionary) or Pre-Contact Australian Aboriginals, human populations blend into one another with no clear cut off points.

If I take someone from Kenya of Bantu-descent and someone from Algeria of Berber or Arab-Berber ancestry and compare them there will be extremely visible differences, to the point where you could seperate them into very identifiable categories. However, when you look at the populations in between those two geographical locations, you'll soon realize that the divisions between Saharan Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans is not as clear cut as you once thought.

All humans share the vast, vast, vast majority of genes. We all share the same genes for hair for example, but the alleles, or variations of the genes are what is responsible for straighter hair in more temperate human populations or more curly-to-kinky hair in tropical populations. Most of these alleles blend into one another, usually pretty predictably based on the distance a population is from the Equator.


(Sorry for the tangent btw, I just enjoy talking about this stuff)

[stevenho]

(Sorry for the tangent btw, I just enjoy talking about this stuff)

How about not hijacking the thread with offtopic racial stuff that is not allowed?
The Turkish guy is writing interesting stuff, I don't want to see this thread closed just because you "enjoy off-topic conversations about skin color".

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Syria: Not quite sure, but there are pro-Barzani (potentially Sorani speakers) and YPG (basically PKK) supporters.

Two questions from me:

1. Why was YPG pretty much THE ground force fighting ISIS in Syria? What do they gain from that?
2. What do Turkish people think about women in the YPG? Do they talk about it or is it /whatever?

[Techno-Druid]

How about not hijacking the thread with offtopic racial stuff that is not allowed?
The Turkish guy is writing interesting stuff, I don't want to see this thread closed just because you "enjoy off-topic conversations about skin color".

With what I've seen stick around on this forum, I wouldn't be worried about anything I have to say, although your comment is extremely valid.

[Khaza-R]

1. Why was YPG pretty much THE ground force fighting ISIS in Syria? What do they gain from that?

I am not the poster you quoted but I can help answer this one. You have to remember that the vast majority of Syria's population resides within the western side of the country, mostly surrounding the 3 cities of Aleppo, Damascus and Homs. The eastern side of the country is desert and very sparsely populated by comparison. The people who do reside there are mostly Kurds, Assyrians, Yazidis and other Arabs tribes who do no readily associate themselves with the Syrian Arab Republic. Because of this, they were also the most vulnerable to attack from ISIS when the civil war broke out. While in the western portion of the country, ISIS found themselves under attack from all sides of the Syrian civil conflict and could never establish a foothold. In the Rojava they were able to easily catch the villages and towns in that region unprepared and unequipped. It ultimately fell to the YPG, being the most powerful force in Rojava to take the brunt of their attack and repel them.

[stevenho]

I am not the poster you quoted but I can help answer this one. You have to remember that the vast majority of Syria's population resides within the western side of the country, mostly surrounding the 3 cities of Aleppo, Damascus and Homs. The eastern side of the country is desert and very sparsely populated by comparison. The people who do reside there are mostly Kurds, Assyrians, Yazidis and other Arabs tribes who do no readily associate themselves with the Syrian Arab Republic. Because of this, they were also the most vulnerable to attack from ISIS when the civil war broke out. While in the western portion of the country, ISIS found themselves under attack from all sides of the Syrian civil conflict and could never establish a foothold. In the Rojava they were able to easily catch the villages and towns in that region unprepared and unequipped. It ultimately fell to the YPG, being the most powerful force in Rojava to take the brunt of their attack and repel them.

OK, though you are talking about why ISIS took over the east, I assume your point is that YPG fought to liberate their territories that were taken from them?

[Khaza-R]

OK, though you are talking about why ISIS took over the east, I assume your point is that YPG fought to liberate their territories that were taken from them?

Yes.

In some ways it was a power grab for the YPG. Other minority groups simply didn't have the same power to defend themselves like the Kurds and we see some instances where historically Assyrian or Yazidi areas have not been relinquished to those groups from the YPG despite ISIS being gone. The larger reason is simply that the Kurds and others in that region wouldn't receive help from either the SDF or the SAA to fight ISIS and they really had no choice but to attack them.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Wow, didn't see that coming. Turkey invades Syria, to prevent the Kurds from having their own state, right at the border to Turkey, which also has a massive unhappy Kurdish population!? It's allmost like the aggression against Assad was a bad idea and it would have been more beneficial for everyone to just help him defeat ISIS and ask for some concessions in return.

But with the very successful campaign against Libya, who could have guessed!?

All because of the powers that be at the time fantasizing the “Arab Spring” was fucking Woodstock.

[stevenho]

In some ways it was a power grab for the YPG. Other minority groups simply didn't have the same power to defend themselves like the Kurds and we see some instances where historically Assyrian or Yazidi areas have not been relinquished to those groups from the YPG despite ISIS being gone. The larger reason is simply that the Kurds and others in that region wouldn't receive help from either the SDF or the SAA to fight ISIS and they really had no choice but to attack them.

Again - two stories in your reply
The power move makes sense, but I have no clue how big it is. Could they be trying to carve out northern Syria and establish Kurdistan there? I have a hard time believing Erdogan would let that pass.

As for having no choice but to fight - they could have simply held back and observe the coalition forces/Russia fight the war against ISIS? And then move in after it was over?

[Logwyn]

Ive said this before but the only reason Turkey has the US by the balls if cause of its strategic air bases and the day Turkey kicks the US out is the day Kurdistan becomes a new state with a ton of US backed Dollars followed by a boom in air base construction!!

That day is seriously coming if Turkey doesnt fucking reign it in!

BTW iam British so i dont have a dog in this race but when i see something that isnt right i say so and the Kurds helped to defeat ISIS when Turkey did shit so i openly support them.

If the US would support a indepent Kurdistan then I'm sure the Kurds would let the US use air bases in their new homeland for the help of independence. There'd also be a highly secular ally/state in the Middle East. And maybe just maybe to the horror of some....a pro-Israel state in the Middle East as well?

What a shake up that would be!!!!

[Khaza-R]

Again - two stories in your reply
The power move makes sense, but I have no clue how big it is. Could they be trying to carve out northern Syria and establish Kurdistan there? I have a hard time believing Erdogan would let that pass.

Its not particularly a big move. Assyrians and Kurds both want their own independent states. Some of that area overlaps so there is certainly conflicts between those groups. Not to mention that some Kurds also participated in the Assyrian genocide. Their relations are tenuous at best. And yes, I believe they are trying to gain as much land as possible in the chaos. It gives the idea of Kurdistan more legitimacy if they occupy more space.

As for having no choice but to fight - they could have simply held back and observe the coalition forces/Russia fight the war against ISIS? And then move in after it was over?

I doubt it. Russia's primary concern was keeping Assad in power and denying the US another pro-Western regime in the region. I doubt they care very much at all about the Rojava region as it really offers them nothing. It would have probably be easier for them if the area was total dominated by ISIS so they could just carpet bomb the the captured areas into ash. As for the US coalition, I am not sure. Kurds were at odds with numerous US rebel-backed factions after the battle for Aleppo in 2016. The US backed Islamists attempted to take Kurdish held villages for themselves and I am guessing made them very weary of relying on help from the coalition forces to deal with ISIS

[Merie]

Trump should really give "Charlie Wilson's War" a watch. But hell, who are we kidding? He needs a distraction form Muller. Even a bad one.

[Kuntantee]

1. Why was YPG pretty much THE ground force fighting ISIS in Syria? What do they gain from that?

American protection.

2. What do Turkish people think about women in the YPG? Do they talk about it or is it /whatever?

PKK has the same thing for decades. It's just not as much served/advertised to the world. This is quite normal to us, while exotic to the rest of the world. What do Turkish people think? Same as man in YPG, terrorists. Not because "we hate them", but because they are commanded by actual PKK cadre.