The Horde need its true warchief, Now more than ever....

[Zulkhan]

I don't like the idea at all but, unfortunately, it may really look like that's how things are going to end. I don't hate or even dislike Thrall so he wouldn't be a terrible choice for me, it's just that I dislike the option by principle, it would be a way for the developers to admit that they spectacularly failed to properly handle any Warchief character who wasn't Thrall and that the fucking laziest options of all (kicking Thrall back into the role, even if it means going against all his latest character development) to solve the mess is the one worth going.

[Zandalariprelate]

I don't like the idea at all but, unfortunately, it may really look like that's how things are going to end. I don't hate or even dislike Thrall so he wouldn't be a terrible choice for me, it's just that I dislike the option by principle, it would be a way for the developers to admit that they spectacularly failed to properly handle any Warchief character who wasn't Thrall and that the fucking laziest options of all (kicking Thrall back into the role, even if it means going against all his latest character development) to solve the mess is the one worth going.

Hey Zulkhan old friend, just asking for curiosity, what character would you pick for warchief? If it were for me I would pick Rastakhan/Talanji or maybe Theron because those 3 are the only interesting option for a decent horde in my opinion, also the troll horde didn't get any screen time unlike the forsaken horde that can't even win a war against a 18 years old boy.

[Nadiru]

The only way to save the Horde is to kill Saurfang before he will start a civil war that Alliance would gladly utilise.

I dunno, the Alliance isn't good at taking advantage of stuff.

[mickybrighteyes]

No Alliance action was as bad as what Sylvanas did, nobody in the current Alliance destroyed a civiliazation with the intent to kill as many civilians as possible. And not for the first time either.

Pretty sure SI:7 still counts as Stormwind Intelligence and they have no scruples about targeting civilian personnel to pursue their goals.

You are twisting the more evil Alliance actions to be one the same level then what Sylvanas did.

and you're showing a bias that skews moral reasoning for body count as the main indicator.

I rank Callously condemning a whole group of people to death.... without cause beyond a desire to get rid of witnesses... as worse than a brutal attack on a nation during a time of war. But that's just me. "but the women and children!" present in both cases. hell in one of these examples, the target was the 'survivors' fleeing the disaster while in the other we're talking of the disaster that is to be fled from.

So what is worst morally?

killing would be survivors who are fleeing? OR attacking in a time of war? If we're speaking morally, the former is the 'worst' option. I know you'd rather down play this and focus entirely on the body counts however.

- - - Updated - - -

I dunno, the Alliance isn't good at taking advantage of stuff.

for all their diplomats and eons of military strategy... they seem rather incompetent in the current story.

they don't want to allow the zandalari to ally with the horde, so they go in and sabotage the navy and kill the king when they invade the region.... Yeah, that won't make them jump all in with the horde at all

For the faction that is supposed to be better at working together with other nations they do a piss poor job at it.

[meroko]

You mean the one we already have? Leaders have to make tough choices. Sylvanas was never wrong.

[Jastall]

I don't like the idea at all but, unfortunately, it may really look like that's how things are going to end. I don't hate or even dislike Thrall so he wouldn't be a terrible choice for me, it's just that I dislike the option by principle, it would be a way for the developers to admit that they spectacularly failed to properly handle any Warchief character who wasn't Thrall and that the fucking laziest options of all (kicking Thrall back into the role, even if it means going against all his latest character development) to solve the mess is the one worth going.

What else is there to do at that point? The Horde's identity is in such shambles that our battlefield commanders are freshly raised Night Elves shopping at Hot Topic, the leader of our special ops squads is a Captain Planet villain who blights things for the sheer lulz of it, and our most prominent Orc cries in the breast of his human benefactor while hoping his faction loses. Scrapping all of this nonsense and bringing Thrall back may be an admission of failure, but I'll take that any day over digging even further down the rabbit hole.

Cripes, they're making me miss the days when our Warchief became Orc Hitler. And that takes some serious effort.

[Super Dickmann]

Cripes, they're making me miss the days when our Warchief became Orc Hitler. And that takes some serious effort.

Tell you what about Garrosh. He didn't go on some soliloquy about how his life is suffering while taking over the world. He knew that taking over the world was its own reward and didn't need excusing. And he knew that the correct response to meeting Anduin alone was to drop a heavy object on him. If only Sira and Saurfang had his guidance.

It really gets me how no matter which side on the murder-honor divide you're on, we're being represented in this expansion by whiners who bemoan their choices rather than enjoying whatever it is they do. I guess that's another reason I can cut Sylvanas some slack. While she is equally as guilty of whining, at least it's relatively lowkey and she's having fun chewing scenery and performing villainy, so I can get into the vibe. I feel like even if I was pro-honor, Baine and Saurfang would kill my buzz with their unceasing ineffectual bitching.

[Zulkhan]

Hey Zulkhan old friend, just asking for curiosity, what character would you pick for warchief? If it were for me I would pick Rastakhan/Talanji or maybe Theron because those 3 are the only interesting option for a decent horde in my opinion, also the troll horde didn't get any screen time unlike the forsaken horde that can't even win a war against a 18 years old boy.

Well, before "Warchief Sylvanas" became a thing, I planned in my head that Vol'jin was going to last so long that a proper Orc, young-but-not-too young and non-Thrall character was developed enough to become the ultimate Warchief and stabilize the Horde for good (or relatively so). Obviously, things have gone wild but I'm still willing to see Sylvanas as the temporary, plot-driving Warchief that is just intended to not last long (be it because she becomes a villain, or an anti-hero or a redeemed character or literally whatever you like) and that Vol'jin is going to get back at his seat when she's done (again, in whatever way that's going to happen) and make things go in the direction I mentioned above. I'm not going to bet a lot of money on that but it's still the option I would like the most (which in Warcraft nowdays means "I don't find it so hilariously terrible").

What else is there to do at that point? The Horde's identity is in such shambles that our battlefield commanders are freshly raised Night Elves shopping at Hot Topic, the leader of our special ops squads is a Captain Planet villain who blights things for the sheer lulz of it, and our most prominent Orc cries in the breast of his human benefactor while hoping his faction loses. Scrapping all of this nonsense and bringing Thrall back may be an admission of failure, but I'll take that any day over digging even further down the rabbit hole.

I think we're already too far in that hole to expect Thrall to save the Horde from its joke status. I mean, yeah he could lead the Horde "back on track" but it would need such an hilarious twist that the Horde's joke status would be cemented and remembered until the end of days.

The only salvation would be finding the way to adjust the situation in the smoothest of manners, like adding and removing shades of gray in and from the current black-and-white setting. A little bit of hilarity cannot be avoided completely, BfA's plot is too much of a fucking joke to come out unscathed from the hole, but at least the transition wouldn't be outright comical.

Cripes, they're making me miss the days when our Warchief became Orc Hitler. And that takes some serious effort

Nah, I still take Warchief Sylvanas over that. If I really have to choose, I still prefer to deal with a cynical, depressed and morally bankrupt bitch rather than an infantile, insecure and one-dimensional simpleton.

[Jastall]

Nah, I still take Warchief Sylvanas over that. If I really have to choose, I still prefer to deal with a cynical, depressed and morally bankrupt bitch rather than an infantile, insecure and one-dimensional simpleton.

Maybe, but at least Garrosh's opposition was something to root for, and even the Alliance had a fairly cool character as its leader, instead of whatever Saint Anduin is supposed to be. Right now not only is the Alliance's leader during the faction war a pacifist, but the section of the Horde that doesn't play ball with the lolevil Warchief is a bunch of whiny, ineffectual morons. The only part of the faction war story that comes out slightly less worse are Malfurion and 8.1 Tyrande, and even then their race had to be freaking genocided for that to happen so it's a consolation prize at best.

At this point the only way I see this being tenable is the Alliance killing Saurfang, making Baine finally stop moping around and be an actual Horde character instead of a neutral one cosplaying as such. We'll be rid of Sylvanas as a matter of course, so then we can have a Warchief that doesn't want to make me facepalm with my feet and also isn't a Thrall-flavored reset button.

[sighy]

Maybe, but at least Garrosh's opposition was something to root for, and even the Alliance had a fairly cool character as its leader, instead of whatever Saint Anduin is supposed to be. Right now not only is the Alliance's leader during the faction war a pacifist, but the section of the Horde that doesn't play ball with the lolevil Warchief is a bunch of whiny, ineffectual morons. The only part of the faction war story that comes out slightly less worse are Malfurion and 8.1 Tyrande, and even then their race had to be freaking genocided for that to happen so it's a consolation prize at best.

This war seems to be between Shaw and Sylvanas than Anduin and Sylvanas to be entirely honest. It could be interesting to explore Anduin's shortcomings as a leader, in war, but who am i kidding it's the aliance and all their inner conflict gets swept under the rug, for some fucking reason.

At this point the only way I see this being tenable is the Alliance killing Saurfang, making Baine finally stop moping around and be an actual Horde character instead of a neutral one cosplaying as such.

That would mean he has to grow a spine and balls... not gonna happen. I just sort of hope he gets killed/ousted by Maghata Grimtotem and we finally see a Tauren leader, who means business.

We'll be rid of Sylvanas as a matter of course, so then we can have a Warchief that doesn't want to make me facepalm with my feet and also isn't a Thrall-flavored reset button.

And who would that be? Spineless apologist Aliance asskisser Baine? Lor'themar who literally only cares about blelves? Gallywix? Etrig? Overlord what's her face? Thalysra? Mayla? The leader Darkspear still don't have?

[Syegfryed]

we need like a 100 year timeskip so we can have a proper orc as warchief and another human king

We can have future Drannosh and future Garithos and this whole war can make some sense or at least be entertaining

[GreenJesus]

i want Thrall to be Warchief again and for Sylvanas to go back to Undercity and doing her schemes on the side. After watching that WCIII fan made thing I want old Thrall back..

[Phuongvi]

With all the choice the Horde have, Sylvannas is the best choice available, deal with it.

[Zandalariprelate]

Well, before "Warchief Sylvanas" became a thing, I planned in my head that Vol'jin was going to last so long that a proper Orc, young-but-not-too young and non-Thrall character was developed enough to become the ultimate Warchief and stabilize the Horde for good (or relatively so). Obviously, things have gone wild but I'm still willing to see Sylvanas as the temporary, plot-driving Warchief that is just intended to not last long (be it because she becomes a villain, or an anti-hero or a redeemed character or literally whatever you like) and that Vol'jin is going to get back at his seat when she's done (again, in whatever way that's going to happen) and make things go in the direction I mentioned above. I'm not going to bet a lot of money on that but it's still the option I would like the most (which in Warcraft nowdays means "I don't find it so hilariously terrible").

Hmm that is an interesting propose but I don't see Vol'jin at charge at the horde again because he seems to be a ghost force now that can't walk in the reality for much time, unless he can posses the body of some troll or have one to be his "speaker" maybe Zekhan can do that role but still I believe he will be the guide for the shadowlands content that seems to be the final patch of this expansion since Azshara is the "guldan" for the next one and she has zero relationship with any death god, unless they pull some bullshit like the old gods now controls the shadowlands or the top guy over there is just another puppet of N'zoth.

Anyway I hope we see more of Vol'jin but I think he wasn't meant to be a long lasting warchief like Sylvanas, even the PC Maghar joke about this(a meme character joking about another meme thing, unbelievable)

[Mihalik]

Thrall and Lorthermar and Sylvanas and Baine and bla bla bla.

As hindsight has proven we all know who the real Warchief should have been. We all knew back in 2010, and we all fucked up with Garrosh, and Voljin the Placeholder and now with the Lich Queen.

The true Warchief of the Horde, the one and only with any degree of competence to actually LEAD the shitshow and fucking clownfiesta that the Horde is.

Basic Campfire.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

That would just corroborate the notion that the Horde can't function properly when it's not led by Thrall. Yeah, with the current writers, that is probably exactly what will happen.

I'm SO looking forward to having to listen to that disgusting filth Aggra again.

Yeah, you have healthy views of female characters...

[Flarelaine]

I’d rather avoid Gallywix. It’ll just turn into one big “definitely not a Trump joke” regardless of whether or not they intend it to be.

Gallywix is competent, though.

[ping-pong]

All hail warchief Sylvanas.

[Vakir]

Gallywix is competent, though.

Are uh...are you sure about that?

"Uwhaaaa? Why does the big machine not work when the whoozit-whatzit needle for the Azerite is at 'Empty' after it warned me in the first place?!"

I mean...MAYBE you could argue that back in Cataclysm?

On topic, pre-Cata Thrall was pretty great. It was only around mid-late Wrath that they started retconing the Horde's resource stability for the purposes of an extremely forced conflict. This whole "Durotar is a horrible backwoods shithole that caused lots of people to die, zomg, now we have a bunch of angry post-Treaty of Versailles-esque Orcs!" makes no god damn sense when you remember it was supposed to be an echo of pre-retcon Draenor and Thrall would've been surrounded with a ton of level-headed advisors that he'd have listened to that would've had an inkling of the suffering of the general public.

The need for a more flawed portrayal is there, but the desire for creating a flaw for said character needs to exist outside of "he inexplicably makes horrible decisions" and "other people around him suck."

[Super Dickmann]

Are uh...are you sure about that?

"Uwhaaaa? Why does the big machine not work when the whoozit-whatzit needle for the Azerite is at 'Empty' after it warned me in the first place?!"

I mean...MAYBE you could argue that back in Cataclysm?

On topic, pre-Cata Thrall was pretty great. It was only around mid-late Wrath that they started retconing the Horde's resource stability for the purposes of an extremely forced conflict. This whole "Durotar is a horrible backwoods shithole that caused lots of people to die, zomg, now we have a bunch of angry post-Treaty of Versailles-esque Orcs!" makes no god damn sense when you remember it was supposed to be an echo of pre-retcon Draenor and Thrall would've been surrounded with a ton of level-headed advisors that he'd have listened to that would've had an inkling of the suffering of the general public.

The need for a more flawed portrayal is there, but the desire for creating a flaw for said character needs to exist outside of "he inexplicably makes horrible decisions" and "other people around him suck."

Early Wrath actually, with the Warsong Offensive and Glory. Though a case can be made that Thrall being completely out of touch with who his people actually were was alluded to even in TBC with Nazgrel's comments about how it may be best that the actual orcish history that Thrall and the Horde under him in general does not know of be left forgotten. It is a retcon, to be sure, but as far as retcons go "Man tries to build sedentary society based on land he never saw with people who have no experience thereof. Man fails." is a lesser leap of faith compared to "The ones actually behind it were demons mentioned in one paragraph of the original manual, those guys you saw for the last two games weren't the real orcs, the real orc is this guy from a cancelled adventure game and tie-in book never referenced before."

That's not to say the WC3 changes were by themselves, bad, as a self-contained game and story it's still pretty good but it's arguably the one case where Thrall is at his best. Not as a main character, because he's already perfect and the orcs have already agreed with him, but as a supporting character to our real protagonist - Grom. Grom is the one who has to actually learn and represents the Horde we saw in the previous games, who despite his best efforts still falls back into what ruined him, but in the end goes through with a decision that's not for his people, but at least serves to make him at peace with himself which he hasn't been for some time. On top of that, the case can be made that him telling Thrall about the culpability of the orcs in drinking the blood willingly leads into him deciding the orcs need to suffer and pay racial penance.