Whats your opinion on PvP item level Scaling (outside Arenas and RBG's) ?

[Deleted]

What do you think of it?

It goes against the basic rules of traditional RPG's?

In my opinion only Arenas and BG's should be a "safe space" for competition.

The world should be the wild wild west

If WoW was an Anime it would be a bad one without any kind of overpowered characters.
And we all know thats how we rate a good RPG. "How good of an Anime could it be"

[FAILoZOFF]

WoD did it good.

[ncotht]

It is terrible since the beginning.

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WoD did it good.

Sorry, I quitted WoD PVP because of scaling

[Piesor]

I liked the approach with resilience for PvP Gear. You had a separate set for PvP only and you felt a progress with every single piece of new gear.

I don't like the gear scaling overall because it takes away the main incentive to progress in PvP.

[Deleted]

I liked the approach with resilience for PvP Gear. You had a separate set for PvP only and you felt a progress with every single piece of new gear.

I don't like the gear scaling overall because it takes away the main incentive to progress in PvP.

Same feeling here.

Scaling removes all kinds of "player empowerment"

Its literally impossible to win 1v3 situation in PvP because of item level scaling.
Everyone removes % of your Health.
Unless ofcourse you are playing against 3 kids who cant press damaging abilities

[cparle87]

What do you think of it?

It goes against the basic rules of traditional RPG's?

In my opinion only Arenas and BG's should be a "safe space" for competition.

The world should be the wild wild west

If WoW was an Anime it would be a bad one without any kind of overpowered characters.
And we all know thats how we rate a good RPG. "How good of an Anime could it be"

I'm totally against it. Level doesn't mean anything anymore. If anything, having a higher level is actually a downside, since the lower levels will have more secondary stats than you will. Used to be a 10 level gap would make the lowbie miss like 70% of their spells. Nope, that's not fair, apparently.

[Nuba]

Same feeling here.

Scaling removes all kinds of "player empowerment"

Its literally impossible to win 1v3 situation in PvP because of item level scaling.
Everyone removes % of your Health.
Unless ofcourse you are playing against 3 kids who cant press damaging abilities

what are you even going on about.
scaling is barely noticeable, youre just nonsensing all around. its only in place to give new-120 a slight shot at competitive in ranked enviroments, but geared toons feel way stronger than undergeared one, I can tell you this with exact precision as I have 4 priests and got glad with 3 of them, and every time one got to 120 the lack of power was notable in Arenas. The difference in power is noticeable, just not as much as in PvE and its ok.

You seem like you just want a reason to QQ about it

[Deleted]

what are you even going on about.
scaling is barely noticeable, youre just nonsensing all around. its only in place to give new-120 a slight shot at competitive in ranked enviroments, but geared toons feel way stronger than undergeared one, I can tell you this with exact precision as I have 4 priests and got glad with 3 of them, and every time one got to 120 the lack of power was notable in Arenas. The difference in power is noticeable, just not as much as in PvE and its ok.

You seem like you just want a reason to QQ about it

Scaling is barely noticeable? Are you insane?
Maybe for a HEALER the gear makes a huge difference.

But for DPS'ers scaling does all the work for you.

Me (a 119k health Demon Hunter) Defeating a 145k health Assassination Rogue
This shouldnt be possible without scaling. I would have been one shotted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USsHuD6w19Q

Just an example

[FAILoZOFF]

It stopps scubs from feeling too good, way beyond their skill, so that's fine with me. Legal cheatig isn't my type of "fun".

[Nuba]

Scaling is barely noticeable? Are you insane?
Maybe for a HEALER the gear makes a huge difference.

But for DPS'ers scaling does all the work for you.

Me (a 119k health Demon Hunter) Defeating a 145k health Assassination Rogue
This shouldnt be possible without scaling. I would have been one shotted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USsHuD6w19Q

Just an example

both of you are low geared, is this supposed to proove anything at all?
you're not vsing a 170k health DH, youre vsing an almost-equally undergeared rogue, not to mention the classes are different youre trying to compare something thats not comparable
why would you even record that, lol

[Thage]

PvP should be skill-based in entirety. If you're not good enough to beat a level 10 at level 60, stop sucking or stop trying to cruise for easy kills. On that principle alone it'd be fucking hilarious to see scaling introduced in world PvP.

[Deleted]

PvP should be skill-based in entirety. If you're not good enough to beat a level 10 at level 60, stop sucking or stop trying to cruise for easy kills. On that principle alone it'd be fucking hilarious to see scaling introduced in world PvP.

But...its a RPG Player empowerment with the best gear in the game and players feeling like gods compared to others.
Anime style.
You have a Anime avatar! You should understand the concept

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both of you are very low geared, is this supposed to proove anything at all?
you're not vsing a 170k health DH, youre vsing an almost-equally undergeared rogue, not to mention the classes are different youre trying to compare something thats not comparable
why would you even record that, lol

170k health without stamina buffs? Is that even possible in this season?
I thought 145k health was pretty high end gear for this season

[Thage]

But...its a RPG Player empowerment with the best gear in the game and players feeling like gods compared to others.

Anime style.

You have a Anime avatar! You should understand the concept

My avatar is from Saya No Uta, a visual novel inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos, whose central theme is "humanity is ultimately powerless and meaningless." The only character that feels like a god is the eldritch horror that turns the world into a nightmarish hellscape in one ending.

Also, in a single player, or cooperative tabletop RPG, yes, player empowerment is important. But in player-versus-player games, an even playing field is king--look at all the PvP games that have completely and utterly failed because of a lack of balance, or how balance problems result in only one character/stage being chosen (why Fox-only, no items, Final Destination became a meme in the first place) by players who are actually invested in the competitive aspect.

Mind you, this is one of the major reasons I have yet to see an MMORPG with a PvP system that doesn't suck rancid buffalo ass, because of the problem reconciling those two concepts. WoW's PvP is legendarily bad and always has been, regardless of how hard Blizzard has tried to force it as an esport. It's bad because there is no even playing field where skill is the determining factor, gear often plays a disproportionately large role in WoW's PvP.

So yeah, I'm all for bringing down the established order and separating PvE and PvP progression in entirety. No more of this half-measure shit, if someone wants to PvP, they can PvP. If someone wants to PvE, they can PvE. If someone wants to do both, there should be incentives to do both, but they should be kept separate for all intents and purposes.

[Nerovar]

WoD did it good.

This. WoD was almost perfect when it comes to PvP gear.

Mind you, this is one of the major reasons I have yet to see an MMORPG with a PvP system that doesn't suck rancid buffalo ass, because of the problem reconciling those two concepts. WoW's PvP is legendarily bad and always has been, regardless of how hard Blizzard has tried to force it as an esport. It's bad because there is no even playing field where skill is the determining factor, gear often plays a disproportionately large role in WoW's PvP.

So yeah, I'm all for bringing down the established order and separating PvE and PvP progression in entirety. No more of this half-measure shit, if someone wants to PvP, they can PvP. If someone wants to PvE, they can PvE. If someone wants to do both, there should be incentives to do both, but they should be kept separate for all intents and purposes.

What the hell are you talking about? Every player that competes on an esports level has top gear regardless of shitty scaling systems. You work for your gear (same as everyone else) and then you get to the competetive level. It's seriously not that hard. Also with PvP gear like we had in WoD there was an actual gear ceiling you could reach. We have less of an even playing field now with Azerite Traits from PvE, trinkets from PvE, item level lottery etc.

Gear should matter and it always will matter. People like you are the reason why we're forced to play fucking PvE content to get decent gear for PvP nowadays.
If you take away gear from the equation, all that differentiates my character from every other unholy DK is a maximum of 11 choices (in the form of talents - one of them being your trinket). Great RPG you've got there.

[Nuba]

\170k health without stamina buffs? Is that even possible in this season?
I thought 145k health was pretty high end gear for this season

my main has 160k health at 383 ilvl

but this isnt even the point, what I meant is that gear matters tons: trinkets, stats, ilvl, azerite, this makes up for maybe 40%+ of your dmg, if not more.
"oh but in pve I do double the dps of a 360 as a 380" - it was never supposed to be like this in PvP, ever.

[Alkizon]

I'd click "PvP ilvl scaling is a BAD thing", but it would be not exactly true...

The only point where there is sense in it is in their favorite paid "competitions", since they are divorced from game and have neither place for "progress/experience" nor base for RPG customization - I mean those that are for public fun, with artificially ready-drawn characters and items. Although it's possible that items that are given to contestants - equal there, which means that you don’t need to scale anything... I'm confused, but let it be "others"... but in other cases, scaling, as was and remains sh*t for this particular game. More information here and here.

This. WoD was almost perfect when it comes to PvP gear.

No, last time it was somehow good - in MoP, because stats and pvp-characteristics, this is the only possible right solution.

ps. OP, this is too much unoriginal, I have too many links regarding such discussions. And I don’t even have anything original to add here except them.

[Deleted]

My avatar is from Saya No Uta, a visual novel inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos, whose central theme is "humanity is ultimately powerless and meaningless." The only character that feels like a god is the eldritch horror that turns the world into a nightmarish hellscape in one ending.

Also, in a single player, or cooperative tabletop RPG, yes, player empowerment is important. But in player-versus-player games, an even playing field is king--look at all the PvP games that have completely and utterly failed because of a lack of balance, or how balance problems result in only one character/stage being chosen (why Fox-only, no items, Final Destination became a meme in the first place) by players who are actually invested in the competitive aspect.

Mind you, this is one of the major reasons I have yet to see an MMORPG with a PvP system that doesn't suck rancid buffalo ass, because of the problem reconciling those two concepts. WoW's PvP is legendarily bad and always has been, regardless of how hard Blizzard has tried to force it as an esport. It's bad because there is no even playing field where skill is the determining factor, gear often plays a disproportionately large role in WoW's PvP.

So yeah, I'm all for bringing down the established order and separating PvE and PvP progression in entirety. No more of this half-measure shit, if someone wants to PvP, they can PvP. If someone wants to PvE, they can PvE. If someone wants to do both, there should be incentives to do both, but they should be kept separate for all intents and purposes.

Your friggin "location" in your profile is a dotHack reference!
A game filled with "player killers" and overpowered characters with items capable of defeating multiple enemies.
The Dream

Im sad you dont enjoy the "overpowered with gear main character" fantasy

Sure, i agree PvP and PvE gear should be set apart.
But i like the fantasy of spending hours...months working on my character so i can be stronger than a good chunk of the playerbase.
Just like in dotHack.

Also, in a single player, or cooperative tabletop RPG, yes, player empowerment is important. But in player-versus-player games, an even playing field is king--look at all the PvP games that have completely and utterly failed because of a lack of balance

I dont understand this part.
WoW was at its top when there was no balance and people were kings with gear.
GW2 was the first MMO (i know of) which implemented a even playfield on the PvP. AND EVEN THEN was only for instanced content. In World vs World there is no balance and gear is king still.

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I'd clik "PvP ilvl scaling is a BAD thing", but it would be not exactly true...

The only point where there is sense in it is in their favorite paid "competitions", since they are divorced from game and have neither place for "progress/experience" nor base for RPG customization - I mean those that are for public fun, with artificially ready-drawn characters and items. Although it's possible that items that are given to contestants - equal there, which means that you don’t need to scale anything... I'm confused, but let it be "others"... but in other cases, scaling, as was and remains sh*t for this particular game. More information here and here.
No, last time it was somehow good - in MoP, because stats and pvp-characteristics, this is the only possible right solution.

ps. OP, this is too much unoriginal, I have too many links regarding such discussions. And I don’t even have anything original to add here except them.

For me Its all about the feeling of putting "work" in your character for months...and then feeling the "player empowerment" via PvP.
Its a PvP fantasy for many
WoW Classic servers will bring that fantasy back.

[Nerovar]

For me Its all about the feeling of putting "work" in your character for months...and then feeling the "player empowerment" via PvP.
Its a PvP fantasy for many
WoW Classic servers will bring that fantasy back.

It's exactly that and more. Nowadays (meaning since Legion) playing at the start of a season feels exactly the same as playing at the end of a season... and people wonder why PvP participation dropped. There is no progression. There is no feeling of growth. Combine that with a 14 year old game and you'll have a dead game mode no matter how many "rewards" you offer.
If I want to play a game where everyone is the same, I'll play RB6, CS:GO, League of Legends, Dota 2, Heroes of the Storm etc. (games that focus on a balanced PvP experience) but this is a god damn RPG.

[Thage]

Your friggin "location" in your profile is a dotHack reference!
A game filled with "player killers" and overpowered characters with items capable of defeating multiple enemies.
The Dream

Im sad you dont enjoy the "overpowered with gear main character" fantasy

Sure, i agree PvP and PvE gear should be set apart.
But i like the fantasy of spending hours...months working on my character so i can be stronger than a good chunk of the playerbase.
Just like in dotHack.

You do remember that in .hack// PKers are considered the dregs of the playerbase, right? Like, to some amazing serious-business levels.

I dont understand this part.
WoW was at its top when there was no balance and people were kings with gear.
GW2 was the first MMO (i know of) which implemented a even playfield on the PvP. AND EVEN THEN was only for instanced content. In World vs World there is no balance and gear is king still.

I mean more like dedicated PvP games (I've already established that to date MMORPG PvP has always sucked). Infinite Crisis was a laughing stock in beta because of shit balance. Overwatch is withering on the vine because of consistently bad balance. MvC Infinite is pretty much a no-show at any serious fighting game competitions because of sloppy balance. SFV is facing an uphill struggle because the gameplay was simplified and skill ceiling lowered (in addition to the botched launch). No serious Smash tournament will have items activated unless it's a for-fun breather match in between serious matches. In competitive PvP, a game lives and dies based on whether or not the balance is tight enough that someone's skill determines a match, not on who has the better items in their hand. MMO PvP is the odd man out here because MMO developers keep struggling to reconcile the core concepts of player progression and skill-based PvP (which is why Arena tournaments involve premades, which removes the argument of player progression since there is no progression in premades).

[Nerovar]

You do remember that in .hack// PKers are considered the dregs of the playerbase, right? Like, to some amazing serious-business levels.

I mean more like dedicated PvP games (I've already established that to date MMORPG PvP has always sucked). Infinite Crisis was a laughing stock in beta because of shit balance. Overwatch is withering on the vine because of consistently bad balance. MvC Infinite is pretty much a no-show at any serious fighting game competitions because of sloppy balance. SFV is facing an uphill struggle because the gameplay was simplified and skill ceiling lowered (in addition to the botched launch). No serious Smash tournament will have items activated unless it's a for-fun breather match in between serious matches. In competitive PvP, a game lives and dies based on whether or not the balance is tight enough that someone's skill determines a match, not on who has the better items in their hand. MMO PvP is the odd man out here because MMO developers keep struggling to reconcile the core concepts of player progression and skill-based PvP (which is why Arena tournaments involve premades, which removes the argument of player progression since there is no progression in premades).

In the past Arena Tournaments worked without destroying the core principles of the game because everyone had access to the same gear anyways. It didn't affect the experience of the average player and it shouldn't. If you want to participate in high-end PvP gameplay, get your gear and then start climbing. It's a really stupid move to say "You know what, let's just eliminate all sense of progression and growth for everyone so all the casual trash can (in theory) play with the same rules as the top 0.1%". I mean, we can all see where that line of thinking brought us in terms of participation.