Remove Pathfinder for Flying

[ashblond]

People on forum were discussing how to bring players back to wow. I think removing Pathfinder achievement to fly and bringing back max level buying fly model will be a good start.

I can't remember how many returning players get turned down by this absolute bullshit requirement. A returning player has to farm previous expansion rep and achievements to unlock flying in those areas. How can this encourage to bring back any players? And it certainly doesn't help material farming for professions or world quests etc.

Max level buying to fly worked fine from TBC to MOP, there is absolutely no reason to change it. And Pathfinder achievement itself has no meaning or depth behind it, it is just flying gated by reputations.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

I still want them to handle flying like FFXIV does. It's the perfect balance between "explore first and just get your shit done conveniently later" imo

[Thelin]

People on forum were discussing how to bring players back to wow. I think removing Pathfinder achievement to fly and bringing back max level buying fly model will be a good start.

I can't remember how many returning players get turned down by this absolute bullshit requirement. A returning player has to farm previous expansion rep and achievements to unlock flying in those areas. How can this encourage to bring back any players? And it certainly doesn't help material farming for professions or world quests etc.

Max level buying to fly worked fine from TBC to MOP, there is absolutely no reason to change it. And Pathfinder achievement itself has no meaning or depth behind it, it is just flying gated by reputations.

flying or the lack thereof isn't the problem, with all the mount speed increases, reduced hearth, flight whistle, etc its a non issue. this game has larger core issues.

[rhorle]

I can't remember how many returning players get turned down by this absolute bullshit requirement. A returning player has to farm previous expansion rep and achievements to unlock flying in those areas.

Past expansions flying only helps for leveling alts. With the boost included with expansion purchases returning and new players can skip that content if they haven't done it yet. If they have done it but not completed pathfinder then they are already on their way to finishing the achievement. The WoD and Legion pathfinder are relatively easy to get.

Legion is obviously more important then WoD because of artifact and order hall. Returning players though that quit because they can't fly right away in old expansions likely wouldn't have stayed very long anyways. The achievement is not meant to have meaning or depth. It is meant to grant flying after X period of time. Those who play the game will have most of the parts done from natural play. It really isn't a big deal. Flying isn't a big deal. People that say they will stay or quit just because of flying are lying to themselves and others. They are quitting the game for far more reasons.

Flight masters whistle makes flying not essential for World Quests. Heck even with the whistle on cooldown you can finish the emissary most times before it is up. It is just champions and tortollan that are naturally spread out. Heck I just knocked out the invasion in less then 10 mins completing the 7th legion emissary at the same time. Didn't even need to use the whistle because all four were right there. Flying wouldn't have helped much.

[Stanzilla]

I still want them to handle flying like FFXIV does. It's the perfect balance between "explore first and just get your shit done conveniently later" imo

How do they handle it? (Have not played)

[Lucetia]

Max level buying to fly worked fine from TBC to MOP, there is absolutely no reason to change it. And Pathfinder achievement itself has no meaning or depth behind it, it is just flying gated by reputations.

It doesn't need change. If anything it needs to have less time between Part I and II.

Paying gold to unlock flying was always a dumb decision. It was just convenient for people. Pathfinder gets you to actually explore the zones, learn about the zone/factions, etc on one character. It's really not that much to ask you to play through the content just once.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

How do they handle it? (Have not played)

There's these things called Aethercurrents that you need to interact with, and after getting all of them for a zone, you unlock flight in that zone. There's some that are granted by quests, and others that are scattered about the zone. Generally the ones in the zone aren't TOO far off the paths you'd be walking while questing anyway, so they still encourage exploration but aren't super inconvenient to grab as you go. They're scattered enough that you "see the zone from the ground", but by the time you're max level and done with all the zones, you've unlocked flight for them and your daily stuff can be done with the speed and convenience of flying.

[chazus]

I can't remember how many returning players get turned down by this absolute bullshit requirement. .

I highly doubt there is any notable number of people who quit, or didn't return, because of not being able to fly immediately.

Sure there are people who -complained- but who actually, outright quit or didn't come back?

[Dugna]

There's these things called Aethercurrents that you need to interact with, and after getting all of them for a zone, you unlock flight in that zone. There's some that are granted by quests, and others that are scattered about the zone. Generally the ones in the zone aren't TOO far off the paths you'd be walking while questing anyway, so they still encourage exploration but aren't super inconvenient to grab as you go. They're scattered enough that you "see the zone from the ground", but by the time you're max level and done with all the zones, you've unlocked flight for them and your daily stuff can be done with the speed and convenience of flying.

Also to add, the last quest of the MSQ of the zone gives the aethercurrent you need, so it makes sure you also know the lore of the zone and such.

[clevin]

Pathfinder gets you to actually explore the zones,

1) exploration has nothing to do with why we can or can't fly. "Oh, you haven't walked around, so obviously your mount doesn't work" makes no in-game sense.

2) We explore all of the zone in most expansion when we level. If that's the criterion, unlock flying at max level right off.

3) IF they want to have Parthfinder, there's no reason for it to be 2 parts and it should be quests related to why we can't fly. And yes, there should be a reason in game for our lack of flight. It doesn't have to be complex... in Legion it could be "the Fel magic being thrown around is disrupting things, we need to gather stuff for a counter spell so our forces can fly" or in BfA... "Azerite is disrupting certain spells...". As long as it's reasonable, you can then construct a long quest line that has us countering the reason.

But face it, the ONLY reason we can't fly at max level anymore is Afrasiabi and Ion disliking it. There are no other reasons that stand up to scrutiny at all. It's purely on those guys.

On topic, though: I think we should be able to fly in the .1 patch and that Pathfinder should be like I outline above and done during the release patch with a final short, culminating quest line when the .1 patch is released. Once unlocked for the expansion, it's unlocked. No 7.3 Argus bullshit.

[Schizoide]

I highly doubt there is any notable number of people who quit, or didn't return, because of not being able to fly immediately.

Sure there are people who -complained- but who actually, outright quit or didn't come back?

We really don't have any data on this one way or the other. What we do know is this.

We know that many players are unhappy with the long wait to fly. We don't know what proportion of players that is, if it's a majority or exactly 41.7% or whatever, but the very long flight threads that keep popping up make it crystal clear that there's a ton of people who feel strongly about the matter. And we know that unhappy players are more likely to quit. Both of those things should be uncontroversial statements, yes?

So, is it plausible that allowing flight would aid subscription retention? Sure. It can't be immediately dismissed out of hand. Blizzard has the data on this, we don't.

[ashblond]

Past expansions flying only helps for leveling alts. With the boost included with expansion purchases returning and new players can skip that content if they haven't done it yet. If they have done it but not completed pathfinder then they are already on their way to finishing the achievement. The WoD and Legion pathfinder are relatively easy to get.

Legion is obviously more important then WoD because of artifact and order hall. Returning players though that quit because they can't fly right away in old expansions likely wouldn't have stayed very long anyways. The achievement is not meant to have meaning or depth. It is meant to grant flying after X period of time. Those who play the game will have most of the parts done from natural play. It really isn't a big deal. Flying isn't a big deal. People that say they will stay or quit just because of flying are lying to themselves and others. They are quitting the game for far more reasons.

Flight masters whistle makes flying not essential for World Quests. Heck even with the whistle on cooldown you can finish the emissary most times before it is up. It is just champions and tortollan that are naturally spread out. Heck I just knocked out the invasion in less then 10 mins completing the 7th legion emissary at the same time. Didn't even need to use the whistle because all four were right there. Flying wouldn't have helped much.

With all respect to what you said, I do agree that flying is not that important for world quests, since we have whistle.

But I am sure, still a lot of players prefer to fly for easy routing, treasure hunting, mining, herbal gathering etc.

If flying really is not a big deal, why not just allow players to fly directly at max level as it used to be? What is the benefit for pathfinder gated behind reps and several months, beside just annoying players?

[StrawberryZebra]

I highly doubt there is any notable number of people who quit, or didn't return, because of not being able to fly immediately.

There are two guys at my workplace who say they quit because they couldn't fly in WOD, and 5 of the people I kept in touch with from my old guild have quit due to a lack of flying too. I, personally, know 7 people who were put off by it. You may not know people who quit over it, but the majority of people I know who've played WoW have cited it as their main reason for quitting. I also know someone who said she quit because her Order Hall was insignificant in BFA. I know that's a small sample size, but people quit for all kinds of reasons and flying makes as much sense as any other.

Paying gold to unlock flying was always a dumb decision. It was just convenient for people. Pathfinder gets you to actually explore the zones, learn about the zone/factions, etc on one character. It's really not that much to ask you to play through the content just once.

Locking it behind pathfinder is very counter intuitive. It reduces it to nothing more than a trophy reward. You have nothing left to use it for at that point.

For people like myself who play just one character, having to repeatedly unlock it to get no use out of it is an awful play experience. I have no intention to level an alt, so a lot of work goes in to "earning" it for very little practical usage. It's so much better from both a practical and a gameplay perspective just to cough up the gold and have done with it. At least then it's actually useful for the duration of the expansion.

[ashblond]

It doesn't need change. If anything it needs to have less time between Part I and II.

Paying gold to unlock flying was always a dumb decision. It was just convenient for people. Pathfinder gets you to actually explore the zones, learn about the zone/factions, etc on one character. It's really not that much to ask you to play through the content just once.

1. If I remember correctly, the old Wrath to MoP mode requires you to reach max level to buy flying on every char. It is not account wide, so you need to level every char while exploring without flying, until it reaches max level, then you can buy flying for this char.

While pathfinder only requires your main to reach max level, farming several reps, waiting for several patches. Once you have pathfinder, all your alts regardless of level, can fly in the zone. So all your alts can level while flying.

Comparing this 2 modes, I am not sure current pathfinder gets players to explore more.

2. Flying encourages players to explore more, because 1. a lot of locations are not accessible without flying mount. 2. players will avoid the hassle to explore some difficult locations when they can't fly. Personally, I certainly explore more when I can flying around.

[Caerule]

This thread again?

Listen, a lot of people hate flying. I'm not one of them. I love flying. I need flying. I want flying now. But, the game isn't about me.
Blizzard didn't remove flying on a whim in WoD. There was a ton of people shouting very loudly that flying should be removed. That the game would be so much better without it. That they would return to WoW if it didn't have flying. That it killed World-PvP. That it ruined the game. It was only when flying was removed, that it became clear that the flying fans were just as numerous and loud, when the No Fly people actually got listened to.

To please both groups just a little, they came up with a compromise. Experience the game in the listed number of ways, and you will eventually get flying. This keeps the most relevant content ground-based. And those that really really want flying as much as I do, have a path to earn it.

Is it perfect? Well, not if you ask me. I want flying now, dammit! Let me be freeee from the ground. But... I recognize not everyone is me. This compromise gives few people that they most strongly want. But it does keep most of them satisfied enough. Both sides win a little. That's probably the best you can hope for, in any compromise.

[ashblond]

This thread again?

Listen, a lot of people hate flying. I'm not one of them. I love flying. I need flying. I want flying now. But, the game isn't about me.
Blizzard didn't remove flying on a whim in WoD. There was a ton of people shouting very loudly that flying should be removed. That the game would be so much better without it. That they would return to WoW if it didn't have flying. That it killed World-PvP. That it ruined the game. It was only when flying was removed, that it became clear that the flying fans were just as numerous and loud, when the No Fly people actually got listened to.

To please both groups just a little, they came up with a compromise. Experience the game in the listed number of ways, and you will eventually get flying. This keeps the most relevant content ground-based. And those that really really want flying as much as I do, have a path to earn it.

Is it perfect? Well, not if you ask me. I want flying now, dammit! Let me be freeee from the ground. But... I recognize not everyone is me. This compromise gives few people that they most strongly want. But it does keep most of them satisfied enough. Both sides win a little. That's probably the best you can hope for, in any compromise.

I totally understand what you said, and agree that people shall compromise.

However, flying itself is not required, it is just optional, for people who hates flying, they can just choose not to fly.

As for claiming they killed world pvp, with the current war mode, pvp dismount toy, etc, I am not sure if that is even valid reason.

And if flying mount kills world pvp, it will kill it anyway, since players will be able to fly in the end with pathfinder, it is just a matter of time.

[Nobleshield]

I despise Pathfinder. I think it should be max level and then like doing all the zone main quests or something. Something that gets you to see the zones since the reason they say flying gets limited is because they want you to see the zones content.

After you see it once, you've seen it. No reason to keep you from flying after that. Make it character bound not account bound so each toon has to "see the zones".

World PVP is such a lame reason for anything that I completely discount it since it's such a minority who even cares about that it should have no relevance. At best, disable it if you have War Mode on (the in game reasoning can be the skies are dangerous and the enemy will detect you or something). World PVP shouldn't have a large effect on anything.

[clevin]

This thread again?

Listen, a lot of people hate flying. I'm not one of them. I love flying. I need flying. I want flying now. But, the game isn't about me.
Blizzard didn't remove flying on a whim in WoD.

YEs, they did.

There was a ton of people shouting very loudly that flying should be removed.

No there wasn't.

That the game would be so much better without it. That they would return to WoW if it didn't have flying. That it killed World-PvP. That it ruined the game.

Only one of these is a reason, the rest are opinions with no external logic or evidence. The PVP one is objectively wrong since a) wpvp dove when BGs were introduced and b) even if it was a reason, that reason didn't apply to PVE servers.

It was only when flying was removed, that it became clear that the flying fans were just as numerous and loud, when the No Fly people actually got listened to.

Which is why any game designer who caters to the forum whines and uses them as a main reason to do anything is an idiot and should be fired.

To please both groups just a little, they came up with a compromise.

no they didn't, it just looks like one. Look at Legion - long Pathfinder, you get flight... for ONE patch.

Is it perfect? Well, not if you ask me. I want flying now, dammit! Let me be freeee from the ground. But... I recognize not everyone is me.

This means that the people who don't want to fly control part of your gameplay. They can always just not fly and let you fly... but instead your choice is removed. This is good.. why?

[SirCowdog]

flying or the lack thereof isn't the problem, with all the mount speed increases, reduced hearth, flight whistle, etc its a non issue. this game has larger core issues.

As much as I'm a proponent of flying, I have to agree this statement is absolutely true. But if Blizzard addressed the underlying issues with complexity and depth of gameplay, flying wouldn't be the "problem" people make it out to be.

Pathfinder is just filler and time-gating to boost MAU and participation numbers on paper. It's not there to protect content, or make flying any more rewarding. It doesn't do either of those things. And so I would agree that getting rid of it would at least be a step in the right direction.

[Pachycrocuta]

As much as I want them to make flight purchasable, it would be some idiotic price like most of the mounts they are bringing out now. A few hundred thousand or million to buy it. Pathfinder wouldn't be as bad if it unlocked after doing "part one", meaning you have already explored everything, did too many world quests, got the reputation, and did all the storylines. There's no reason to postpone it to basically the final patch.