There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Mlz]

Yeah, haven't been raiding since BfA and Legion.

Imagine disregarding somebody's argument because of their progression. You don't need to be a CE raider to come to the realization that linear progression isn't a thing. If anything, somebody who isn't a Mythic raider would realize that the most.

And again, why does this matter? You haven't given me an answer besides "wElL ItS jusT BeCaUsE ThEy ShOuLdNt." I still agree that forging is dumb, but some random guy getting a high forged item from doing a world quest doesn't affect my gameplay in the slightest. You're literally complaining for the sake of complaining.

You got Lei Shen one day after Dark Animus () and otherwise you didn't raid at the relevant level where you could have seen and felt the ilvl difference between casuals and raiders. You yourself have admitted that you as a casual (as you didn't raid HC back then) didn't perceive the ilvl difference between yourself and high level players, which definitely existed btw, so which kind of brings me back to the underlying idea that if casuals are (on purpose or not) clueless then what makes you think they care/know about the fact they are not at the same ilvl as some others?

But more importantly, the ilvl loot-pinata is first and foremost paramount to casuals themselves - they get to a certain ilvl very fast and easily and then try to do content that would offer them upgrades. Often this content is high level content and they are not even slightly capable of doing it which is why the rest of the playerbase creates tools to weed out the majority of casuals who are just too trash for their ilvl. Then those casuals either quit or go around complaining on forums (even here) about how elitism ruins this game while not realising that if they had lower ilvl, maybe that +5 would look more appealing while being definitely more relevant to their skill-level as well.

[Kyrua]

[URL="https://i.imgur.com/Rd349YF.png"]but some random guy getting a high forged item from doing a world quest doesn't affect my gameplay in the slightest. You're literally complaining for the sake of complaining, especially as somebody who self admittedly doesn't even raid Mythic.

So,you are ok with gear being equal for everyone and you say that.
Then why would some random mythic raider getting a better gear than you affects you ?

The 1 million dollar question. We are holding our breaths

[Sanguinerd]

What the actual hell do people crying ''unsubbed till classic" expect is going to happen in classic?

Everyone and their uncle is going to walk around in raid gear in no time.

You won't be special there either

[adamzz]

I'm not a Mythic level raider, but I agree with the sentiment. My guild finished Heroic Uldir and I decided to take a break. I come back 1 month later when 8.1 launched to get back into the flow or things and casually ask, "So what ilvl do we need to be for Normal Dazar'Alor?" only to be met with, "At least 370" and I was floored because of how stupid it sounded.

I asked, "Why so high for Normal mode? Uldir Normal mode only drops 350, surely that should be high enough for the next Normal raid."

I'm then told, "WQ's, emissary caches, incursions, warfronts, and Mythic +0 all now reward 370 gear." Needless to say, I was floored again.

"So why have we bothered all this time dealing with the frustration to finish Heroic Uldir?" I was pretty much met with silence and "Because it was something to do." as the response.

Sure, I got my gear faster and it's pathetically easier to gear up alts, but it boggles my mind that Blizzard has this mentality of "Trivialize everything but the most recent patch."

- If they want to make WQ's relevant past a certain point, put in cosmetics of literally any kind to keep people interested, don't just keep bumping the ilvl.
- If the next raid comes out and people are still working on Uldir; so what? They'll get to the next raid, it's just taking them a bit longer to get there.
- If M+5 no longer rewards ilvl gear that will be an upgrade, let that person start doing M+6 or higher, don't suddenly have M+0 reward what a M+10 used to.

In other words; give everyone back the feelings and sense of progression and accomplishment. You're doing the exact opposite currently; taking what felt like accomplishments and turning them into irrelevant trivialization.

If you need to spend time and frustration to clear heroic uldir with a guild group you are doing a lot of things wrong and should probably stick to lfr. Also, this has been the case for normal and hc raids for a good while now. HC raids got obsolete when M+ got released in Legion and HC gear was only good for normal raids in the next tier for a few expansions now. You can do normal bod with 355 gear and you can do hc bod with 370 gear, it will just make it a lot harder for you. Just like before, nothing has changed there. If you don't want to fall behind in gear then maybe you shouldn't quit the game. I had 370+ ilvl before mythic opened up, that's one week of the ilvl cap being unlocked.

Also, what the fuck are you talking about with M+? M+0 gives 340 gear like it did at launch, M+10 gives 370 gear like it did when cap got unlocked.

[Seramore]

You got Lei Shen one day after Dark Animus () and otherwise you didn't raid at the relevant level where you could have seen and felt the ilvl difference between casuals and raiders.

Again, the ilvl loot-pinata is first and foremost paramount to casuals themselves - they get to a certain ilvl very fast and easily and then try to do content that would offer them upgrades. Often this content is high level content and they are not even slightly capable of doing it which is why the rest of the playerbase creates tools to weed out the majority of casuals who are just too trash for their ilvl. Then those casuals either quit or go around complaining on forums (even here) about how elitism ruins this game while not realising that if they had lower ilvl, maybe that +5 would look more appealing while being definitely be more relevant to their skill-level as well.

Not sure what my kill dates have to do anything, you randomly said I started raiding in Legion and I showed otherwise. You're not wrong, but I also don't really see where you're getting at with this given that I was both carried on farm at the end of a tier to raid into the coming one, and also have raided progression myself for numerous tiers.

You also make this "tool" argument as if it's used to weed out these type of players. Raider.IO score is emphasized on because even good raiders can be absolute shit in M+. Your score provides evidence that not only do you have good gear, you also probably know how to not play like a fucking idiot in a dungeon and won't int your group.

Players don't get to this "certain ilvl" fast. It took quite a while until I started to see tons of people with inflated gear that didn't "deserve" it trying to get into content. The only reason you're seeing it more now is because you're looking at the catch up gear going into BfD which opens in a few weeks, while we're still in Uldir and Season 1 M+ where everything tuned around and provided is a few ilvls within Mythic Uldir ilvl range.

It's also not impossible to get into a +10 that people are complaining about, nor is it implausible to build up a Raider.IO to get to that point where people would be more likely to accept you, you just have to work towards it more by grinding lower keys.

I also don't really understand why you're arguing about this considering that you're self admittedly a person who doesn't even Mythic raid, at least in BFA. I understand the feeling itself, but I also don't get why it's being argued about today considering the concept of undeserving players getting great gear has been in the game for over half of this game's life cycle now.

So,you are ok with gear being equal for everyone and you say that.
Then why would some random mythic raider getting a better gear than you affects you ?

The 1 million dollar question. We are holding our breaths

I don't understand your question. It doesn't affect me, because I don't care.

[Great Destiny Man]

And it solved 2 problems which outweigh the issues you are describing.

1. The game was inaccessible to those behind/new, and they could never catch up. New blood pays the games bills.
2. Due to attrition and turnover, a majority of guilds would dry and up and die over the course of the expansion because there was no one to replace them with.

This right here. People like to shout about how the game is "bleeding subs" but simultaneously want higher difficulty raids to be more inaccessible further lowering the pool of potential players that could even hit the relevant numbers.

If people want raiding to die out completely I'd rather they be transparent about that rather than dance around this "ilvl prestige matters" stance.

[kamuimac]

What the actual hell do people crying ''unsubbed till classic" expect is going to happen in classic?

Everyone and their uncle is going to walk around in raid gear in no time.

You won't be special there either

unicorns will start showing and raid bosses will be shitting rainbows ? who knows.

in general its hillarius how they think that more then 5% of people will try it will make it past level 30 current era gamers and classic wow ? this will be hillarius shitshow to watch

[Kyrua]

I don't understand your question. It doesn't affect me, because I don't care.

The dodge is real. Why are you posting if you don't care then...

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unicorns will start showing and raid bosses will be shitting rainbows ? who knows.

in general its hillarius how they think that more then 5% of people will try it will make it past level 30 current era gamers and classic wow ? this will be hillarius shitshow to watch

Well first : private servers success.

Second : You will not know how classic does since you will not have the sub numbers. And you are spouting out 5% numbers from nowhere

third: This also implies you will not play classic. (would be sad... for us if otherwise)

ending: useless post.

[kamuimac]

You got Lei Shen one day after Dark Animus () and otherwise you didn't raid at the relevant level where you could have seen and felt the ilvl difference between casuals and raiders. You yourself have admitted that you as a casual (as you didn't raid HC back then) didn't perceive the ilvl difference between yourself and high level players, which definitely existed btw, so which kind of brings me back to the underlying idea that if casuals are (on purpose or not) clueless then what makes you think they care/know about the fact they are not at the same ilvl as some others?

But more importantly, the ilvl loot-pinata is first and foremost paramount to casuals themselves - they get to a certain ilvl very fast and easily and then try to do content that would offer them upgrades. Often this content is high level content and they are not even slightly capable of doing it which is why the rest of the playerbase creates tools to weed out the majority of casuals who are just too trash for their ilvl. Then those casuals either quit or go around complaining on forums (even here) about how elitism ruins this game while not realising that if they had lower ilvl, maybe that +5 would look more appealing while being definitely more relevant to their skill-level as well.

and its natural that they try to do it.

what is unnatural is that lower dificculties dont offer them any kind of prolonged grind because blizard is scared that raiders will start to whine "that hey have to do it" too - thats why we see no Valor/badge gear / gear upgrades anymore. which is such a shame.

give people decent itlv valor gear to farm and i guarantee you that those people will vanish overnight from applying to "hardmodes " groups.

[Seramore]

The dodge is real. Why are you posting if you don't care then...

What dodge, what the fuck are you talking about lmao? You asked me if I was okay about people having equal item level gear, and then asked if I was okay with other mythic raiders having better gear than I do which I also said I don't care about. I think there's a language barrier issue going on here or something, because my original point is me saying this thread is dumb because none of it matters and the majority of raiders care very little, if at all, about the concept of casuals having the chance to get equal item level gear as them.

[kamuimac]

The dodge is real. Why are you posting if you don't care then...

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Well first : private servers success.

Second : You will not know how classic does since you will not have the sub numbers. And you are spouting out 5% numbers from nowhere

third: This also implies you will not play classic. (would be sad... for us if otherwise)

ending: useless post.

what succes ? - even the most famous server was complete and utter failure - yes they were bragging 150k people made accounts but their prime time numbers were around 8k-12k - and this was during biggest content drought ever when people have literaly nothing to do in WoD.

it was a failure too if you have any basic knowledge how to analyse numbers.

and about me not playing classic ? hell yes ofc i wont play it - i dont need any nostalgia trips - been there done that dont feel any urge to go through it again especially with how extremly boooooooooring and long leveling process will be (hurray for haveing to sit and drink every 3rd mob because mana regen on mage was retarded low - never again with this bs).

[Kyrua]

Because you need to be 1 million in a single server to claim that you hare succesful now ?
Because only one private server represents the entirety of private server population now ?
Because blizzard shut down Nostalrius just because they wanted to do it out of nowhere when theres hundred of same servers that are still live ?

LUL

[Huehuecoyotl]

If you have 8/8M and someone else has 0/8M and you both have the same ilvl, doesn't that just show without doubt that you are more dedicated and more skilled than the other person? Isn't that what hardcore raiders have always wanted? They have the same gear as you, and they STILL can't do the content that you can.

I don't see what the problem is here. Especially bearing in mind that the game is based around replacing all of that gear on a regular basis.

[Gforcez]

Gear catch ups are fine but they should still require some effort. Darkshore just gives us gear.

So does LFR or World Quest, that's also no effort for easy gear. The game throws gear at you to emulate character progression. Everything besides raiding, mythic plus or rated PVP is no (or low) effort.

[Lazel]

If you need to spend time and frustration to clear heroic uldir with a guild group you are doing a lot of things wrong and should probably stick to lfr. Also, this has been the case for normal and hc raids for a good while now. HC raids got obsolete when M+ got released in Legion and HC gear was only good for normal raids in the next tier for a few expansions now. You can do normal bod with 355 gear and you can do hc bod with 370 gear, it will just make it a lot harder for you. Just like before, nothing has changed there. If you don't want to fall behind in gear then maybe you shouldn't quit the game. I had 370+ ilvl before mythic opened up, that's one week of the ilvl cap being unlocked.

Also, what the fuck are you talking about with M+? M+0 gives 340 gear like it did at launch, M+10 gives 370 gear like it did when cap got unlocked.

How the fuck did you have 370+ before mythic opened up when ilvl was capped at 355 outside uldir this fucking guy man lmao.

[Nheme]

It's a shame that everything is for everyone regardless of skill and time invested. Give all hobos an Armani dress and you will see that no one wants to by an Armani dress anymore.

[Kaver]

So does LFR or World Quest, that's also no effort for easy gear. The game throws gear at you to emulate character progression. Everything besides raiding, mythic plus or rated PVP is no (or low) effort.

LFR and World Quests don’t give you guaranteed 385 gear. The Darkshore warfront is ridiculous.

[Lazel]

and its natural that they try to do it.

what is unnatural is that lower dificculties dont offer them any kind of prolonged grind because blizard is scared that raiders will start to whine "that hey have to do it" too - thats why we see no Valor/badge gear / gear upgrades anymore. which is such a shame.

give people decent itlv valor gear to farm and i guarantee you that those people will vanish overnight from applying to "hardmodes " groups.

No one had problems with valor & justice, or emblems prior to that, problem is people doing inferior content having equal item level to people doing superior content.

Mythic raiders only have high item level the very first weeks of raid release, after that everyone catches up, regardless of what they do, everything gives gear, main problem here again is titanforging.

You couldn't get 277 loot from emblem of frost , which was icc 25 heroic gear at the time, you couldn't get 372 gear from valor which was bot/bwd/to4w heroic loot at the time, you could only get 2x tier (with exception of toc & icc where you could get 232 and 251 from vendor which was equal to 10 man normal) so VP & Emblem gear was vastly inferior as well.

[Kyrua]

People only want equality cuz they want everyone to be fair when they are the ones who suck at the bottom.

But everything being equal and fair is utterly boring. If every woman would be physically equal then there would be no means to tell if a woman is indeed really hot. Having ugly women is what makes the beautiful ones "hot".
Having any people on a competitive scene being equal and rewarded equally is boring, cuz they is no losers which also means no winners.

And we can go on and on...
All things equal are boring. And I'm not the only one telling that, any philosophy research will tell you the same.

[Revamp Man]

But why should little jimmy bother doing a +8 of atal? The gear is barely better then what he got doing no M+

and Reorigination is gone next raid, with no replacement. There's raid specific traits, but they all look like ass.

My point is jimmy can't do a +8
It has been a thing all expansion
Players get a high ilvl but can't clear the content that would give the same ilvl
Origination is merely an example

Look at it this way
Little jimmy doesn't know anything about his class
Timmy is a mythic raider
Both are WW monks (only using the class because it is my main)

Jimmy has 373 ilvl
Timmy has 370 ilvl

Jimmy has the azerite helm from the dark shore world boss and some random 370 wq azerite gear
His weapons are lets say 360wf from the timewalking weekly
390 world boss trinket and maybe a 370 from uldir
No enchants
Few empty sockets
Maybe 5 stacks of reorigination
Random stats

Timmy however
Best trinket combo possible
Arathi boss and PvP trinket from his PvP work
A single BiS dungeon azerite piece
The shoulders from PvP
Chest from raid for buff
Gemmed
Enchanted
Dropped ilvl on rings for stats
At least 1 385 weapon

Place those two in a boss fight

Timmy will have higher reorigination stat properly optimized so about 25% vers with a food buff and augment and he will pre pot with a flask

Jimmy maybe has half of that prep

Let's say heroic fetid is the boss

Will jimmy win because of his ilvl? Or will Timmy win because of his skill and prep?