There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Great Destiny Man]

Dude, once in a while I inspect players, like most of us do. It is quite often to see people with them. Yesterday I saw a DH with 5... that is rare, okay yes.
And yes, you don=t see it that much around... but you DO see it quite frequently today.

Someone seeing examples of something happening, even if it's the more than one occurrence at a given time, doesn't detract from it being rare.

I'd consider myself extremely lucky with WF/TF rolls, as I have a number of 390/395 items (mostly from Mythic Uldir) and yet I'm still 388. There isn't a single person in my 8/8M guild that's 390 or above and that includes the ones who run M+ on a regular basis.

Not to mention that even if I had 390 it would more than likely be unequipped rather than equipped. Due to sockets/stat priorities I'd be losing DPS if I just went with my highest ilvl set.

[Nebron]

To talk like a social darwinistic coward in conjuction with a computer game is the most stupid thing i ever read about. A computer game is about having fun. And as fun is defined subjectively, no gamestyle should per se yield better rewards.

Wow What a salty person you are. Actually, that point isn't wrong at all, as even in games this is how it works. You try to make your points valid in th same time being an absolute ignorant. Todays playerbase at it's finest

You are confusing two completely different things - time-commitment and skills
WoW has always been directed by skills > time-commitment. It doesn't mean either of those were absent. It just means that most skilled players were always rewarded the best, whether you like it or not. Until the most recent times, when Blizzard realized that it would be great for players to give them most valuable gear for their tome-commitment. Now, the thing at least equal, if not reverse.

I have never been a hardcore raider, yet I understood why my gear is not the best. If you say, that 395 ilvl gear for completing Warfronts, Mythic 10+ or anything like that requires more skills than raiding, well - you are wrong.

You say:

You need way longer to get as many rewards from world quests as you get from raiding. So who puts in more effort?

It is the best example of that confussion.

That is quite of a paradox, but elitism is all that created a healthy society. It has always felt good to be in group with people from the most known guilds. It has always felt good to stood by a player with legendary items. I can't remember, if players ever cried about the problems with dropping the loot. Instead of thinking your way, think what the game lost because everything is for everyone. I couldn't player thee current expansion for more than a month - my friends have been raiding Taloc on Mythic with PUG, and I told them I won't do so, since it kills the idea of raiding for me. Then, I reached higher ilvl than they did with Taloc and MOTHER down on mythic. It felt good for a while. Then I realized there is no point of raiding, since I can get better loot than them from daily objectives.

This entire philosophy is just uspide down, no matter if you like it or not.

And as fun is defined subjectively, no gamestyle should per se yield better rewards.

And just because people don't like playing the hardest part of the game, which objectively are mythic raiding and the highest keys, game should offer a varierty of possibilites to acquire the same gear. You can put 10x time in the game, and you should never be rewarded the same.
At least, when you know there is something that rewards you for your skills, not the time you spent in game, it gives you the incentive to go for it and get better. So the "equality of oppurtunities isn't that bad analogy. It simply works, once again, wheter you like it or not.

[Flarelaine]

We care though, there is nothing more tilting especially first few weeks of progression when you have higher progress than everyone else and you see that guy from w.e guild having more ilvl than the rest of your guild due to pure luck.

I can't remember having ever given a single fuck about anyone being better geared.

[zesilo]

Now you know how us end game pvpers felt years ago

[memphx]

TF beign a "problem" is a topic for a while..
I just don't understand one thing.
People who say for those who have problem with this system is basically like "Why don't you just play the game and don't give a f*ck?"
My question will be to them: Why don't you just play the game and don't care about your ilvl beign 370-375 and no more ?? You have the option to raid mythic.
For example if you play any of the othe esport games you have the chance to be the best at it and win tournaments. But if you just play the game you probably don't have an i9 CPU with 2080Ti and all the other high end components.. which can help to be better in most cases (144hz screen for example)
TF is a horrible system. If there would be a cap on it which wouldn't allow the items to proc higher than the next difficulty (ex. a heroic 370 can proc up to 385 max).
Soon having things to collect won't be enough to keep subs alive..

[Beefkow]

I agree with OP all the way.

Putting in less effort to obtain gear equivalent to mythic raid is just absurd.

Gear nowadays are practically handed out like candy.

Back before legion, if you wanted to obtain endgame gear, you would actually have to work for it instead of just doing casual content. Warforged is a fine concept but titanforging removes reason to do mythic raiding.

Unless you're obsessed with mounts, mythic raiding is for you.

[Yhcti]

I dont see the problem. I used to be in a top100 guild and didnt care then, now my enjoyment is purely from M+ and Arena, theyre both just as challenging as raiding. Lets face it the hardest part in raiding is getting 20 people to use their common sense.

[Kyrua]

Hey you know what happens to group of people who want everyone to be equally bad on a savage world ?
Well, either the weak get eaten first, or you have not enough strong people to protect the weak, or your group is crushed by a stronger group.

[InfiniteCharger]

And it solved 2 problems which outweigh the issues you are describing.

1. The game was inaccessible to those behind/new, and they could never catch up. New blood pays the games bills.
2. Due to attrition and turnover, a majority of guilds would dry and up and die over the course of the expansion because there was no one to replace them with.

What issues are you claiming I posted that they "solved"?
I wasn't making any statements about "issues" with the game.

What I said is the only purpose for playing the game is to get gear. Nothing else.

Again, in a FPS many times you can beat the game with just one or two weapons.
But in an MMO you have to meet ilvl and level requirement to beat any content.
There is no way to progress through more difficult content with the same gear from beginning to end in WOW.

That is the core game play and no this hasn't changed.

And there is no evidence that today there are MORE people attempting mythic raiding versus in the past.
In fact, I would argue even less people are attempting mythic raid content.

[klepp0906]

As a 8/8M raider myself, i don't see the problem with it. Whatsoever.

You said it yourself, you reach higher ilvls faster, doing something you enjoy (i guess?). Why would other players be limited in their ilvl for not raiding?

You get exclusive traits and trinkets aswell, or did in Uldir in regards to traits.

Have absolutely no problem with other avenues awarding high ilvl rewards, such as Mythic+, PvP, crafting, etc. Game has some issues that should be focused on, but this certainly isn't one of them.

Because usually effort is commensurate with reward.

i seem to not understand why mcdonalds employees arent paid as much as heart surgeons. why should they be limited?

i mean, dont people want something to aspire to? It would be nice if i could scratch my ass and cap ilvl, for about a day... oh, wait...

[Redroniksre]

How can they cutter to 70% majority whwn those players quiting game? Cuttering to casuals actualy makes casuals quit game becouse those players dont know what they want. Nobady cares about casual cotent not even casuals themself becouse you cant make casual content interesting.

Players do know what they want. They want to do things that are fun, that's why everybody plays the game. Except most people don't consider hardcore raiding to be fun. Most people who play this game are also cyclical subs, meaning they unsub when they get bored, and resub when there is stuff to do. One new raid won't bring a lot of people back, but new dungeons/zones will, as will more world content.

[Halyon]

Self worth is determined exclusively by what you have that others do not.

Basing your self-worth on a videogame is a bad idea.

I can agree that WQ's shouldn't reward that high ilvl gear, that's kinda (very) silly. That mythic plus does is a-ok with me. You have to complete the dungeon completely to maybe get 1 piece of gear from the entire applicable reward pool for said dungeon, like it was 1 rather fat boss.

That's fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Because usually effort is commensurate with reward.

i seem to not understand why mcdonalds employees arent paid as much as heart surgeons. why should they be limited?

i mean, dont people want something to aspire to? It would be nice if i could scratch my ass and cap ilvl, for about a day... oh, wait...

Money is a universal currency, x amount of items isn't.

[seasy]

Too bad that Blizzard will bumb.up current 370 rewards to 400 when raid lanuches. Yes warfront and world bossea will reward 400 itemvlvl not current itemlvl.

- - - Updated - - -



How can they cutter to 70% majority whwn those players quiting game? Cuttering to casuals actualy makes casuals quit game becouse those players dont know what they want. Nobady cares about casual cotent not even casuals themself becouse you cant make casual content interesting.

They will bump up rewards but probably after mythic raid launches and most competent raiders should have cleared hc by then anyway so you already have lots 5+2 bonus rolls plus gear drops.
So raiders are way faster in the gear curve anyway.

[Ztranger]

Catch up is great for guilds trying to get raids going. Doesn't take forever to gear up a new person.

[Mokuna]

Gear has lost its purpose, end game gear is supposed to be a carrot, a reward for content that takes more than drooling on your keyboard.
Mythic gear was never really necessary,most of the content can be done with heroic gear only, it's a reward and a way to softnerf a raid

In vanilla and bc you'd look at a player and instantly see what level he was playing at, even with pvp you'd see someone with the latest season shoulders and know he was good at pvp, this was a great way to make people want to start doing pve and pvp, they had a goal, a clear reward...

Nowadays none of that exists anymore, i can make a turtle go through a maze 3 times and then get a ring that's better than mythic rings, casual players have no incentive to become better at the game because everything is handed to them, top players don't get rewarded, they just get bragging rights with achievements and meaningless scores, that's a terrible design for a rpg.

That's even sadder there is no incentive to progress mythic if you're not gonna fully clear it, you're barely gonna get any gear, and no cutting edge achievement, discouraging casual players to even start mythic progression outside of free loot bosses like taloc and mother...

Mythic gear should be the highest level that's not reachable by any other content, except really high rated pvp and why not high M+ keys, the most progressed players should have the best gear, period, that's the core principle of rpg progression...

[Soluna]

It is absolutely pathetic to see that people with no Mythic progression what so ever (or at best Taloc/Mother in pugs) have the exact same ilvl as my main that progressed trough Udlir and now counts 44 mythic boss killed actually sitting at 385 ilvl. I also see that with my alts, my DH is 384 and rogue 385 ilvl, both are not even close to have the same time and effort invested of my main.

Truth is, Mythic raiding will only give you gear a little bit faster in this game, but at the end of the day: Blizzard is just throwing Mythic ilvl gear to everybody and for no reason. Just for the sake of everybody being equal, even if you don't do shit in this game they want you to be as geared a hardcore player.

This was already the case in Legion but in BFA this issue has just been so inflated it's seems like a parody. This game has gone to pure shit in every way possible it's fucking pathetic.

You reach higher ilvl much faster than these people. Of course everyone will be 380-385 by now due to mythic+ cache. Also, only 44 kills? Maybe that's the problem? I have 82 registered kills, and I am 391 ilvl. An ilvl that I never see tbh. Stop whining, the prestige is not in the gear power anymore. It's in the looks, the regular mythic title and the fate slayer, the mount next tier, etc.

[seasy]

Gear has lost its purpose, end game gear is supposed to be a carrot, a reward for content that takes more than drooling on your keyboard.
Mythic gear was never really necessary,most of the content can be done with heroic gear only, it's a reward and a way to softnerf a raid

In vanilla and bc you'd look at a player and instantly see what level he was playing at, even with pvp you'd see someone with the latest season shoulders and know he was good at pvp, this was a great way to make people want to start doing pve and pvp, they had a goal, a clear reward...

Nowadays none of that exists anymore, i can make a turtle go through a maze 3 times and then get a ring that's better than mythic rings, casual players have no incentive to become better at the game because everything is handed to them, top players don't get rewarded, they just get bragging rights with achievements and meaningless scores, that's a terrible design for a rpg.

That's even sadder there is no incentive to progress mythic if you're not gonna fully clear it, you're barely gonna get any gear, and no cutting edge achievement, discouraging casual players to even start mythic progression outside of free loot bosses like taloc and mother...

Mythic gear should be the highest level that's not reachable by any other content, except really high rated pvp and why not high M+ keys, the most progressed players should have the best gear, period, that's the core principle of rpg progression...

Mythic gear is already the highest obtainable gear without titanforging.
So maybe they should reduce titanforging or just remove it.
I'm completely fine with warforging but titanforging is pretty dumb.

[Tatahe]

Well my main is 0/8M (and 2/8H) and he's 386/387 just by doing some casual M+ and some casual PvP. I have several 8/8M guildies over 392 on bags, but equipped ilvl is pretty much the same. I think you are right but some things are easier to get if you are a 8/8M raider (like weapons). All my characters have several 380 weapons but none has a 385 which is pretty much free for any casual 2/8 3/8M raider so yeah, you are missing some thing on average even when ilvl is pretty much the same for 0/8M and 8/8M raiders.

[Deleted]

You reach higher ilvl much faster than these people. Of course everyone will be 380-385 by now due to mythic+ cache. Also, only 44 kills? Maybe that's the problem? I have 82 registered kills, and I am 391 ilvl. An ilvl that I never see tbh. Stop whining, the prestige is not in the gear power anymore. It's in the looks, the regular mythic title and the fate slayer, the mount next tier, etc.

Nobady cares if you have something faster. You should not own this type of gear period. It is so pathetic that we went from exlcusive and intertesting raid content to ,,let everybody see raids,, and to ,,give everyone gigh end raid ger,,. People used to make excuses like mythic raiders still getting top end gear as reward so it is ok to have LFR. Now when even gear devalued they make excuses like ,,well you should do raids for fun no for gear,,. I cant waill for gaming industry to crash again so we will finaly see some improvements.

Prestigue isnt in loocks becouse evrybody can refarm gear later into expansion or solo next expansion. Nobady cares about titles there is way too many of them. Same for mounts and achievemets all can be refarmed when content gets absolote and 1 cutting edge achievement cant made up for it. Remove mythic gear, titles, mounts and all other rewards from game pernamently when content gets absolote than we can talk about prestigue

[seasy]

Nobady cares if you have something faster. You should not own this type of gear period. It is so pathetic that we went from exlcusive and intertesting raid content to ,,let everybody see raids,, and to ,,give everyone gigh end raid ger,,. People used to make excuses like mythic raiders still getting top end gear as reward so it is ok to have LFR. Now when even gear devalued they make excuses like ,,well you should do raids for fun no for gear,,. I cant waill for gaming industry to crash again so we will finaly see some improvements.

Prestigue isnt in loocks becouse evrybody can refarm gear later into expansion or solo next expansion. Nobady cares about titles there is way too many of them. Same for mounts and achievemets all can be refarmed when content gets absolote and 1 cutting edge achievement cant made up for it. Remove mythic gear, titles, mounts and all other rewards from game pernamently when content gets absolote than we can talk about prestigue

You raid for fun on higher end content, gear is a plus to do more and clear high end content faster.
The fun you have with your group to progress into a raid.
After that its just farming but you still can have fun.
I can understand you only raid for gear if its pugs and then it usually isn't fun.