Venezuela’s Lessons for American Socialists

[Flurryfang]

Saying that Venezuela is real socialism, is like saying that early Nazi-germany or current day Russia is a real democrasy.

Not here to say, that socialism good/bad, just that Venezuela is only a good example of what corruption and very bad national decisions can bring.

[Mihalik]

I already mentioned Pinochet, what now, 3 times?

There's also Argentina that experienced economic recovery followed by economic decline on both ends of the political spectrum in the span of 50 years. First under Peron's semi-socialist/semi-capitalist rule and then under the right-wing Junta rule that essentially went to war with the UK just to distract people from the shitty economy (that went well as we all know).

[Sluvs]

Not here to say if socialism works or not (IMO it doesn't), but Venezuela had economical and political problems before that. And those problems were what put venezuela where it is now.

Not to mention it's not exactly fair to point to a socialist country that failed and claim that socialism does not work, otherwise anyone can do the same with capitalist countries that failed, which there is a lot of.

[Sky High]

Oh boy, that ol chestnut of whining about Venezuela as if that has ever been the prime example of a socialist government. You chuckle fucks have to keep going to that country because when you look at most European countries doing just fine it blows your pathetic arguments right out of the fucking water.

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh boy, here we go again

Relevant gif is relevant:

lol gif is too fast to even read the shitty, wrong, point.

[Sluvs]

But almost no one is calling for "True Socialism". That's what you morons don't get. Which is why it has no weight in an argument.

Most are looking to social democracy which is a "political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic policy and capitalist economy."

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Pretty sure the Sanctions that have been imposed on them for over the past decade isn't helping their economy either.

Yeah, not to mention their economy was in tatters before that.

And guys, we can criticize capitalism while working to make it better, you guys know that right? I mean, it's how systems, or anything, evolve. You guys also know that nobody is asking for a full blown socialism, right?

Is there no place for nuance over here?

[ipaq]

So, why are you always fighting against capitalism, then?

I guess you should take this article to heart, and stop pushing your socialistic beliefs.

USA don't even have capitalism. Without any competition factor you end up merging everything into a few megacorps.

That's why the govt have to place limits, unless you like to pay 200USD a month for your shitty internet+tv+phone while France gets their for 30EU.

[Demasiados]

Oh boy, here we go again

Relevant gif is relevant:

I will do you one better:

lol gif is too fast to even read the shitty, wrong, point.

Slomo then

[NED funded]

Pretty sure the Sanctions that have been imposed on them for over the past decade isn't helping their economy either.

Care to mention a single sanction that was present on Venezuela in 2014 by the time its economy had crashed??

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I already mentioned Pinochet, what now, 3 times?

Ignorant as always.

[Forogil]

Care to mention a single sanction that was present on Venezuela in 2014 by the time its economy had crashed??

Ah, but you know it was the oil price :-)

It "crashed" from about 20$/barrel in 1998 when Chavez took power to 60-100$/barrel in 2014.

[Machismo]

USA don't even have capitalism. Without any competition factor you end up merging everything into a few megacorps.

That's why the govt have to place limits, unless you like to pay 200USD a month for your shitty internet+tv+phone while France gets their for 30EU.

It's fairly capitalistic, in spite of the efforts of people like Mittens and the OP.

[Forogil]

"If there is a right way"
Looks at the entirity of Scandianvia
Yeah, there is.

Meaning don't implement socialism, but a welfare state.

Note that most of the social democratic parties in Scandinavia left the "Socialist International" because it was deemed as too corrupt.

The American Democratic Socialists left it because it was too neo-liberal for their taste.

[Worvon]

By that reasoning the People's Republic of Congo is what US Replicans want for their country too.

No kidding. Somalia is a libertarian's wet dream. How's that place doing?

[Razzako]

Venezuela didn't do socialism. They went to dictatorship...this has been known for years. Noah Smith is trying to force a square peg into a round hole to make an nonexistent point.

They tried doing socialism and when you try socialism failure is what will happen, e.g. dictatorship. It's just a system that will never ever work because we humans are not compatible at all with it. We can however apply some few aspects of it, but never go full socialist.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Dundebuns]

Venezuela is shit because of sanctions and greed, not the form of government.

[Razzako]

The problems of Venezuela started with Chavez.

Chavez lighted the fire, but the problem is within the culture itself.

This is the problem with Venezuela and many other LA countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viveza_criolla

[igualitarist]

On May 28, 2014, the United States House of Representatives passed the Venezuelan Human Rights and Democracy Protection Act (H.R. 4587; 113th Congress), a bill that would apply economic sanctions against Venezuelan officials who were involved in the mistreatment of protestors during the 2014 Venezuelan protests.[74]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-...ouse-bill/4587

Those sanctions affected only some government officials, not the country itself.

[Checkt]

Blaming all of Venezuela's woes on socialism is as dishonest as blaming all of Somalia's woes on capitalism. Many Latin American countries are still reeling from rampant US and Soviet meddling throughout the 60s through 80s (and in some cases, up to the USSR's fall in the early 90s), meddling that allowed cartels and military dictatorships to flourish as short-term alliances left behind long-term impacts, and rampant government corruption brought on by lawmakers and police who had gotten used to Soviet and American palm-greasing to look the other way during, or lend support to, covert operations within their borders.

For every time someone mentions Venezuela or Greece, they're suspiciously silent about Scandinavian countries, Canada, or Japan (where social safety nets flourish by working in tandem with capitalism) because it goes against the narrative that Socialism is to blame, rather than greed and corruption. Corruption can flourish regardless of whether your system is Socialist or Laissez-Faire Capitalism, or anything in between the two, because all corruption needs to flourish is people whose greed outweighs their morals, and that's something that can happen no matter where you are on the political spectrum. What happened with Venezuela is the corruption was able to fester so deeply that it outpaced the peoples' ability to combat it by voting in honest leaders and representatives in their place.

the 60s and 80s? NAFTA exists as a means for the US to control Latin American economic health.

[NED funded]

Just important to note, I didn't say it was the cause or the reason, just that it's was sort of like kicking a person when they were already down.

How exactly is sanctioning individual officers affecting the Venezuelan economy at large??

The entire World Economy collapsed in 2008 and many countries struggle for a lot longer than the US.

Venezuela's economy wasn't devastated by the 2008 crisis. The real crash started roughly around 2012.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...=VE&start=2006

Its even worse now:

https://www.elpais.com.uy/mundo/pobr...venezuela.html

[igualitarist]

Its sad seeing the left wing nuts here living in a complete denial, in order to avoid self deception, while people in Venezuela are starving to death thanks to the idea defended by the left. Mises coined a name for this - Fourier Complex.