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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    No, you don't but ganking (which, assuming he still uses the word wrongly, just means getting killed by high lvl player) promotes all of that which directly counters his claim of "there is no positive aspect to ganking low level players."
    Even granting that ganking low level players DOES do what you claim, the point being made is that it doesn't do it very well, can be done BETTER, and without the utterly needless griefing that is caused by killing a low level player with a capped one.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-01-06 at 10:20 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    It has been this way since 2005, 2004 if you push it.

    This is World of Warcraft.
    Yeah and the game has changed a lot since then. It's outdated and doesn't fit the game anymore, especially with warmode.

  3. #243
    Easy solution, enabled Warmode=u get bonus conquest, not materials, not exp, just conquest, then you won't have PvE people going for PvP and crying about it. But it would probably kill WPvP.

  4. #244
    Back in TBC, I was a lowly 62 hunter leveling up in Zangarmarsh. A random 70 mage appears, tries to kill me while I'm on my quest. I kill him instead (hunter OP) and he gets mad. Shortly after he calls in help from his guild. After seeing 3-5 70s camping me, i ask for help. I get a few other 70s in the zone to come help. Shortly after WPVP between multiple 70s is occurring, while i decide to make my escape. Well they end up getting more, and start looking for me, because they realize the 70s i got to help weren't going to stop them. They proceeded to attack the major cities in the zone, and eventually found me. I decide to go take a shower and come back in around 30minutes, they're still camping the city. Ultimately it took around 2hours for the entire ordeal to clear up, and for me to resume questing.

    Now in modern WoW, i don't see these kinds of situations occurring very often. (Last time i saw a brawl like this occur was during WoTLK, fighting over Hodir dailies) If anything I'd expect a random max level to kill you on sight, then be on his way in most situations. However, i still remember these types of events even 10 years later, and tbh they're some of my best memories of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by IdentityCrisis View Post
    Explain how ganking is good for the game in any way except to satiate the sociopathic fantasies of egomaniacs?
    Except you want extreme results from people who gank. Perma banning people for ganking someone is absurd. I understand in my extreme case that i presented, camping a town and "harassing" a player for 2hours may be ban worthy, but even then anything more than a few days is excessive. However, camping and ganking are different scenarios, and tend to have hidden reasons as to why they occur. (IE, that 70 mage was pissed that a 62 killed him while he was rep farming) I don't think limiting Wpvp is the answer, if you don't want to pvp or can't handle getting 1-shot once in awhile, there are alternatives in game already to that. (random dungeons or WM off)

  5. #245
    The solution to the opposing faction attacking your faction anywhere on the map was always getting the members of your faction to go there and do battle. This has always been the essence of world PVP. However, since Vanilla too many things have taken place that have made this kind of game play obsolete.

    1) In Vanilla there were things called Zone Defense and World Defense channels in chat.
    If the enemy faction attacked NPCs in a zone or town this would immediately generate alerts in one or both of those chat channels.
    This meant anybody who was looking for a fight could go to that location and engage in WPVP.
    Level did not matter and most times in the heyday of Tarren Mill/Barrens WPVP there were people of all level ranges involved.
    There were no blizzard defined objectives in this kind of game play. It was purely based around spontaneous fights breaking out.
    And the reason it worked is because the world was small and people didn't mind some mindless fun in the open world.

    2) This primarily was at its height before the introduction of battlegrounds. And hence was the only kind of WPVP in the game.
    Even if you were on a PVE server you still could see WPVP take place and join by flagging yourself (the original PVP toggle).
    After Battlegrounds were introduced people had alternatives to WPVP and the whole point of battlegrounds was PVP within level brackets.
    WPVP remained and has forever been all about PVP in the open world where level did not matter because in the open world all levels exist.

    3) This was before sharding existed. Servers were fixed and had well defined communities. There was more of a social aspect to the game.
    There was no way to play the game without being social. And hence, getting help for almost everything was required, whether NPCs or WPVP.

    The game today is far different than it was before. The current game promotes this concept of a single player MMO like experience.
    The social aspect is gone and the world is too big to have people concerned about what is happening in different zones or dimensions or planets. Fixed servers don't exist any more and therefore neither do the world defense and local defense channels. Hence in war mode, nobody hears you scream.

    The dynamics of getting people to come out of their single player oriented bubbles is much more difficult than what it used to be.
    Lowbies in Old Vanilla continent are literally a world away from most max level players and most times they could give 2 sh*ts about what happens in lowbie zones. And on top of that, sharding makes the world more disjointed which makes connecting players across shards and across zones more difficult.

    So at the end of the day, the current system of WPVP is still the old system (minus some things) that has existed from Vanilla. But the game has moved on. And now the best experience in WPVP can only be had via localized objectives at max level such as incursions or war front zones. Other than that, WPVP is dead. This is why you have the toggle. I doubt that blizzard is going to overhaul the overall game play any time soon, which is probably why the added the toggle in the first place. That was their answer to lowbie ganking for folks "stuck" on PVP servers who did not want to deal with griefing, ganking or camping.

    Keep in mind griefing, ganking and camping exist in all forms of multiplayer games. It exists in team based PVP. For example, in games like Team Fortress you can get camped by the opposing team at your spawn point and get killed before you even get a chance to fight back. Or you can get repeatedly killed by certain players over and over, like by a sniper. All of these things are actually REWARDED in those games and levels have nothing to do with it. It is all about getting YOUR TEAM to fight better and defeat the opposing team. That has always been the rule in any kind of online PVP team game play. Again, the problem in WOW today is folks are too spread out and most times don't care about anything other than their own individual game objectives to care what happens to a lowbie or same level in PVP.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2019-01-06 at 10:56 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Straw man. Fear of change based on a completely fabricated scenario is not a valid counter-argument, nor is it support for the current system.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It promotes a community based on salt and aggrivation.
    Friendship and admiration? LOL@that? Citation needed. If you admire a ganker, you have serious issues.
    Faction identity can be promoted and encouraged without basing it on griefing.
    Jealousy is not a positive feeling.




    No, it doesn't do any such thing. The only thing it kills is PVE progression creating a pre-determined outcome for a fight. That is NOT the same thing.

    Higher level players would still have access to a broader range of abilities. Lower level players could still fight back, just with a more limited toolset. Your progress would still matter either way. It just wouldn't allow you to absolutely shit on someone and deny them any and all chance to fight.

    That's all you're arguing in favor of: Using PVE progression as a tool to deny other players a chance at fighting back. What I'm arguing for is simply to allow players a chance to defend themselves instead of just quitting PVP alltogether. The fact that you can't see how this would create MORE opportunities for WPVP only shows that you're not thinking about anything other than your own desire to gank.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I have listed and explained the reasons I believe the current War Mode PVP system is flawed. You don't agree. Would you like to maybe like to explain how the current system is good, or would you prefer to just keep repeating some form of "You're wrong."



    Yes, and this forum has moderators and rules in place to prevent that kind of toxic behavior. Shouldn't WPVP also have such rules?
    This guy was ganked and is now on a crusade.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    However, some repetitive ganking is a good thing, lowbies get shit on, lowbies call for help, their 120 come to defend. 1v1 can quickly eqcilate to a 1v4, the ganker gets pissed calls his friends and before you know it, its a mini arena style battle going on.
    The problem with this logic is it's much easier to gank people than it is for a lowbie to rally other level 120s to help kill the player, and if they manage to do that, by then the ganker will have most likely left anyway. Not many people care enough to log on their 120s and travel to crossroads to kill one bored level 120 rogue. With sharding, half the time the player isn't even there if you log into your level 120 character anyway.

  8. #248
    Should level 120s still be able to gank lowbies with no repercussions?

    Well, Blizzard clearly thinks they should.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It promotes a community based on salt and aggrivation.
    Friendship and admiration? LOL@that? Citation needed. If you admire a ganker, you have serious issues.
    Faction identity can be promoted and encouraged without basing it on griefing.
    Jealousy is not a positive feeling.
    It promotes community because you need to fight back as one
    Friendships work the same way, people can help you and you can help them back.
    Admiration of people who helped you, or people who killed you. Wanting to be as good or better than them.
    Jealousy can have positive outcomes.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, it doesn't do any such thing. The only thing it kills is PVE progression creating a pre-determined outcome for a fight. That is NOT the same thing.

    Higher level players would still have access to a broader range of abilities. Lower level players could still fight back, just with a more limited toolset. Your progress would still matter either way. It just wouldn't allow you to absolutely shit on someone and deny them any and all chance to fight.

    That's all you're arguing in favor of: Using PVE progression as a tool to deny other players a chance at fighting back. What I'm arguing for is simply to allow players a chance to defend themselves instead of just quitting PVP alltogether. The fact that you can't see how this would create MORE opportunities for WPVP only shows that you're not thinking about anything other than your own desire to gank.
    But it does, if a level 20 player is able to kill a 120 you're totally messing with everything character progression is about in an RPG. Its as if a 20 level mob would kill a 120 player, the same thing.

    Then if the low level players don't have a chance, why even bother doing extra systems? You're not going to change anything in the end.

    What you're arguing for is destruction of RPG element in the game, if you want "fair" fights then you have the option for those. If you want to improve WPvP without destroying other elements in the game then go ahead and make such suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Even granting that ganking low level players DOES do what you claim, the point being made is that it doesn't do it very well, can be done BETTER, and without the utterly needless griefing that is caused by killing a low level player with a capped one.
    It surely can be done better I have no question about that, the question is how without destroying rpg elements like your suggestions are constantly doing.

  10. #250
    According to 90% of the tards up in here, it would be good design to have cutting edge mythic raid bosses 2 shottable by a max level player. It's fun, it's raiding. Its just good design

  11. #251
    Scarab Lord TriHard's Avatar
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    It's called small penis syndrome. It's only insecure players that are not sure of themselves that go around intentionally ganking lowbies. Just /rofl at them and move back to SW and turn off WM. Can't do much about pathetic people, the game was made for them in the end

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Echoherb View Post
    Yeah and the game has changed a lot since then. It's outdated and doesn't fit the game anymore, especially with warmode.
    It still fits and back in classic it wasn't that big of a problem because there was a healthy world PVP community. Back then if you got ganked you post in general chat that you're getting ganked and 5 minutes later some max level chars from your faction would come for help. Today if you do the same thing you get whispers to turn off warmode.

    The real problem is that world PVP is more or less dead. It exists only for the rewards and if the rewards aren't good enough, people won't do it which in itself is a bad design. Nobody wants to into low level zones because they get no reward for helping a low level player. A lot of people don't want to PVP at max level because the 10% increased reward aren't good enough. At the start warmode was exciting because you got achivements and titles and people thought that azerite, war ressources and gold would be important but now nobody really cares for the 10 gold or 25 azerite or 10 war ressources. Most people who still use war mode at max level use it because they like world PVP, want to gank low level players or use only to do the weekly PVP quest.

    The playerbase has changed and most people don't want to PVP anymore. Trying to make world PVP more appealing is making it the more efficient way to play the game and would force people into PVP. The game and its players have changed and Blizzard gave you their solution, which is to give you the option to turn off PVP.

  13. #253
    IF wow was like EQ, that everytime you died, you lost exp, you would think twice about having it on. Imagine if Blizz did impliment the *exp loss on death* you wouldn't have WM on i'm sure. :P
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  14. #254
    Get on your main and kill them then.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This guy was ganked and is now on a crusade.
    This guy is making shit up because he has no argument. :/

    Sorry, but just because you don't want to re-examine your point of view doesn't mean I'm salty about being ganked. But even if I was, it wouldn't invalidate my points.

    Now, do you have something of worth to contribute to the discussion, or would you like to just keep trying to demonize me?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    It promotes community because you need to fight back as one
    This can be done better when players of ANY level can fight back. If WPVP is only going to allow capped players to be significant, then non-capped players should not be valid targets at all. If lower level players can be attacked, then they should also be allowed the opportunity to pose a credible threat if played well. (see below for more on this)

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Friendships work the same way, people can help you and you can help them back.
    Same as above. Why should only a capped player be able to help? Why shouldn't another person you might be leveling with be able to join the fight and potentially spark a friendship?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Admiration of people who helped you, or people who killed you. Wanting to be as good or better than them.
    Also can happen between players of equal level. Again, this is not something that can ONLY happen with capped players. We see this kind of thing all the time in raids and dungeons. People playing better. Topping the DPS or Heal charts even in leveling dungeons, or performing well in BGs below level cap.

    What you're describing is simply NOT limited to the scenario where a low level character is ganked.


    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Jealousy can have positive outcomes.
    Such as?



    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    But it does, if a level 20 player is able to kill a 120 you're totally messing with everything character progression is about in an RPG. Its as if a 20 level mob would kill a 120 player, the same thing.

    Then if the low level players don't have a chance, why even bother doing extra systems? You're not going to change anything in the end.

    What you're arguing for is destruction of RPG element in the game, if you want "fair" fights then you have the option for those. If you want to improve WPvP without destroying other elements in the game then go ahead and make such suggestions.


    It surely can be done better I have no question about that, the question is how without destroying rpg elements like your suggestions are constantly doing.
    [/quote]

    No, what I'm arguing against is the increases in war PVE levels pre-determing the results of PVP fights. You can still progress towards new gear for PVE, new abilities, more options, more talents. These all still remain available against PVE targets, and yet still give you options to customize your playstyle in PVP.

    Scaling would not REMOVE this progression. It would only equalize the raw power of the abilities while in War Mode. You're too focused on Levels meaning everything in an RPG, and not what levels give you in terms of playstyle and customization. All you're doing is over-exaggerating and misrepresenting my point in order to make your own POV seem more valid, without fully considering what I'm actually arguing for.

    Lets look at something like Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone to make this a little more understandable. The more cards you have to build your deck with, the more options you have, and thus more versatility. This, in effect, does increase your POTENTIAL strength, but does so without literally making each card more powerful than someone with fewer cards to work with.

    While Collectible Card games aren't RPGs, they do use many similar systems to allow players to compete against each other in a relatively fair manner, while still allowing for "progression" by expanding possibilities. Yes, this does sometimes result in FOTM builds that are "stronger" than others, but it does not preclude the chance of other players being able to fight.

    This is the kind of balance that needs to be struck in WoW's WPVP.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-01-07 at 07:05 AM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This can be done better when players of ANY level can fight back. If WPVP is only going to allow capped players to be significant, then non-capped players should not be valid targets at all. If lower level players can be attacked, then they should also be allowed the opportunity to pose a credible threat if played well. (see below for more on this)
    WPvP allows everyone to take part, the level difference between characters do control the outcome to a point. If you opt-in to WPvP that means the world will be dangerous place and if you're low level then you gotta just level up. Taking RPG element away from the game by making everyone equal in PvP just kills character progression, you could just let everyone join the same BG's and start arenas from level 1.

    Then again if you don't make them equal then they don't really stand a chance to fight back, which defeats the purpose.

    All the while doing such a system just makes twinks, specially Legion ones, super OP. There is a reason why Blizzard basically removed the scaling low level players had in BfA. It doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Same as above. Why should only a capped player be able to help? Why shouldn't another person you might be leveling with be able to join the fight and potentially spark a friendship?
    You need players that are level appropriate or higher compared to the killer. Others persons you're leveling with can take part in that but if the difference is too great then they're likely not going to be much of help on dps side while CC's still apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Also can happen between players of equal level. Again, this is not something that can ONLY happen with capped players. We see this kind of thing all the time in raids and dungeons. People playing better. Topping the DPS or Heal charts even in leveling dungeons, or performing well in BGs below level cap.
    What you're describing is simply NOT limited to the scenario where a low level character is ganked.[/QUOTE]
    never said it couldn't, I just showed your claim was outright bullshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Such as?
    Determination to become better

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, what I'm arguing against is the increases in war PVE levels pre-determing the results of PVP fights. You can still progress towards new gear for PVE, new abilities, more options, more talents. These all still remain available against PVE targets, and yet still give you options to customize your playstyle in PVP.

    Scaling would not REMOVE this progression. It would only equalize the raw power of the abilities while in War Mode. You're too focused on Levels meaning everything in an RPG, and not what levels give you in terms of playstyle and customization. All you're doing is over-exaggerating and misrepresenting my point in order to make your own POV seem more valid, without fully considering what I'm actually arguing for.

    Lets look at something like Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone to make this a little more understandable. The more cards you have to build your deck with, the more options you have, and thus more versatility. This, in effect, does increase your POTENTIAL strength, but does so without literally making each card more powerful than someone with fewer cards to work with.

    While Collectible Card games aren't RPGs, they do use many similar systems to allow players to compete against each other in a relatively fair manner, while still allowing for "progression" by expanding possibilities. Yes, this does sometimes result in FOTM builds that are "stronger" than others, but it does not preclude the chance of other players being able to fight.

    This is the kind of balance that needs to be struck in WoW's WPVP.
    So you're arguing exactly what I'm saying, killing character progression aspect in PvP. If new abilities, new talents and other customization is actually character progression in PvP then those low levels don't have a chance in any case. If they do then nothing you did to your character matters = progression is dead.

    Levels don't mean everything in RPG but they should mean something, if a level 20 player comes and kills your lvl 100 then it feels like you didn't progress at all or worse feels like you went backwards.

    Taking card games as an example (really, trying to tie it up to RPG's?) doesn't really change anything. You can start Hearthstone or MGT and have little to no cards and have literally no chance against anyone that does have cards. You have to build up your deck before you can do anything and if you have a good deck against a specific other deck then you're just lucky and same could happen in WoW, a low level beating higher level because they out-classed them.

    Why don't I use things like real world as an counter example (something that actually fits RPG). You're not going to win a pro boxer in a boxing match without seriously training (leveling up)

    WPvP is balanced for an RPG world, you can try to improve the system in other ways but killing RPG elements is a disgrace and does not belong in RPG games.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I have listed and explained the reasons I believe the current War Mode PVP system is flawed. You don't agree. Would you like to maybe like to explain how the current system is good, or would you prefer to just keep repeating some form of "You're wrong."
    And you do not agree with the current the system and tried to explain why they are wrong. At the very root of PvP in WoW is that it is not designed to be fair. It never was. This is something the original designers accepted and allowed. PvP was worse before WoW.

    What you are attempting to level the playing field in various manner. Out levelled by another player is just one aspect of the unfairness in PvP. Outgeared is another form. A player in 370+ will have a huge advantage over a 280 gear player. Out numbering the opposition is also another factor that has existed and still exist today.

    Should there be a complete solution to level the playing field for all possible combination of unfairness that could arise in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Yes, and this forum has moderators and rules in place to prevent that kind of toxic behavior. Shouldn't WPVP also have such rules?
    WoW do have rules for toxic behavior. It is not limited to PvP and people can report them. No, there are no moderators or referees in WoW because it is not practical to have them.

  18. #258
    Only problem I see is killing NPCs that is needed for quests. For everything just turn war mode off, its not supposed to be a free buff. I never have war mode on, its just to annoying.

    (I wish they split shards into warmode off/on and groupfinder only show the one your in).

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    Or just normalize the whole thing so that level doesn't factor for world PvP. Very low-level characters would still be at a disadvantage because of missing abilities, but otherwise for current content it would be fair. Leave gear power creep to instanced PvP and level the field, so that in any given world PvP encounter, the worse player dies, not the weakest mathematically. I don't understand why they don't do this - and mind you, I'm pretty confident I would still die all the time. But THAT'S a system I would still participate in, even if I was bad at it.
    How would the solve stats etc then? If you are lvl 120 with, lets say 40% haste, and you attack a lvl 110 with 60% haste, which one is strongest if they are the same class with the exact same talents?
    Remember the start of BfA, when anyone 110-114 would smack the living shit out of a 120? Scaling sucks dick. Don't like World PvP where the stronger is the strongest? Opt out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  20. #260
    Bloodsail Admiral m4xc4v413r4's Avatar
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    Are you serious? It was NEVER a problem before and you think it is now that everyone has a choice to turn off PvP? lol

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